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God's unconditional promises to the ancient nation of Israel

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by Biblewriter, Jul 16, 2021.

  1. power1

    power1 Member

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    Yes, of course. All Israel will be saved. (those left after most of them are killed, the remnant)
     
  2. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Yep, so Biblewriter and you are in general agreement
     
  3. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    You are Mistaken in claiming that all of these promises were conditional. Many of them were unconditional. Further you are neglecting the fact that God has unconditionally promised to bring them to the repentance required for the promises that were conditional.

    "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (Jeremiah 31:33-34)

    This unconditional promise makes even the conditional promises unconditional.
     
  4. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Yes, that is EXACTLY what I said.
     
  5. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I most certainly did not neglect the remnant in Romans 11:1-5. But you are neglecting that this passage explicitly speaks of this remnant as "at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace." (Romans 11:5)

    And your claim that two different "theys" are mentioned in Romans 11:28 is 100% pure imagination. It has zero foundation in either the Greek or the English text, and is absolutely nothing but a gross and failing attempt to wrest what the scriptures explicitly say.
     
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Can you show where the "elect" in Christ are also the enemy of God?


    .
     
  7. power1

    power1 Member

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    Those days are AFTER they believe in Jesus in the end. It is not I that was wrong. Of course when they accept Jesus they will then know Him. Of course when all Israel repents and is saved, His love and law will then be in their hearts. That was not 1948!
     
  8. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Romans 11:28, the very scripture you are attempting to wrest into to different "theys." What you are claiming is a gross violation of the rules of granmar.
     
  9. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    O curse, the promises do not apply to all of the modern nation that incorrectly calls itself Israel, as it exists today. The promise that applies to t=that nation is


    8 And it shall come to pass in all the land," Says the LORD, "That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it:
    9 I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, 'The LORD is my God.' " Zechariah 13:8-9
     
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The Apostle John confirms below that those who reject Christ cannot be both the "elect" and the enemy of God.

    What you are claiming is a violation of the rules of God.


    1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
    1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


    2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
    2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
    2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
    2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


    There is no path to salvation outside of the Church found in Romans chapter 11. Those who claim otherwise have created that path from their own imagination.

    .
     
  11. power1

    power1 Member

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    Great, so what do you say to people asking us to support Israel as a test of how close we are to God, (there are verses about how nations that fight Israel will be cursed) to pray for that state, etc?
     
  12. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Nothing in the Bible even hints at an idea that you cannot be a member of the elect, and, at the same time, am[n enemy of God. Paul was elect, because God EXPLICITLY told Annanias that "he is a chosen vessel unto me." But he had been an enemy of God.

    "Elect" does NOT mean that you ARE saved. it means you are CHOSEN to BE saved. For this was said of Paul BEFORE Annanias went to him.

    And you are falsely claiming that no one can be saved outside of the church. The church did not even BEGIN until the day of Pentecost. But ALL the Old Testament saints were saved.
     
  13. power1

    power1 Member

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    The bible actually says we chose.
     
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Are you claiming the thief on the cross was not saved under the New Covenant?

    Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
    Joh 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
    Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

    Joh 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
    Joh 19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
    Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
    Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
    Joh 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
    Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
    Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.



    Are you claiming the New Covenant ends before the Second Coming of Christ?


    Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
  15. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Are you claiming that Abraham, Moses, and David, who were UNQUESTIONABLY NOT part of the new covenant were NOT saved?
     
  16. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    18 I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' John 13:18

    16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. John 15:16

    19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. John 15:19

    15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. Acts 9:15

    14 Then he said, 'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. Acts 22:14

    27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
    28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
    29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 1 Corinthians 1:27-29

    4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
    5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Ephesians 1:4-5

    13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13
     
  17. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi Biblewriter,

    Greetings.

    God surely did accredited righteousness to the account of the Old Testament saints, but God accredited that righteousness in anticipation that payment would be made for their sins at a future time so there sins would be wiped out, and they could receive the Promise of Salvation.

    Romans 3:25-26 (WEB) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it (paid the ransom) to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

    Hebrews 9:15 (WEB)
    • For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant,
    • since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant,
    • that those who have been called (OT and NT saints) may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
    Consider Abraham's Bosom, which was a Paradise located in a partition of hell. I believe, when Christ paid the ransom on the cross, Lord Jesus transferred Paradise from hell to heaven, now that He has paid the ransom for their sins.
     
  18. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In addition: Accept in very special circumstances, such as with Enoch, Elijah, and Abraham, all the rest of the believers in the Old Testament waited in the hope of salvation - the deliverance that was promised to them after Lord Jesus paid the ransom for their sins.
     
  19. power1

    power1 Member

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    Yes Jesus knew who He had chosen. He knew one of them was not right in heart. He also did choose His apostles and told them to go out and preach to others. Why? Because others have the choice to be saved! The apostles also had the choice, and they chose to accept that Jesus wanted them to follow Him and believe. He did not chose them in a sense that they had no consciousness of choice themselves!
    That is why all over the bible we see things like 'whosoever WILL, come..'

    Same as above. The chosen are those who chose to believe. (and in this case follow)

    In other words God knew his talents and abilities and heart and what He wanted him to do. God does give us gifts. God does have people for certain jobs. That neither means that that person did not choose Jesus, nor that other folks who chose to believe would not also have other things He chose for them.

    God knew Saul sought God honestly and that his heart was right. God knew what Paul would choose. That is why we see a few verses later

    Acts 22:16
    And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
    Paul had to chose to be saved.

    In other words God chose many poor and uneducated men and women. That shows us that it is not by our own great minds or works that we are saved. That in no way means that each and every one of those people did not choose to be saved. In no way is this suggesting that somehow some people are special and sent into the world as chosen ones. They need to repent and be saved, then they are the chosen ones. Yes He knew we would. That does not mean He forced us, or that we had no say.

    Yes, He chose to have Jesus come so that people could chose Him and be saved! That was the salvation plan set up before the world was. That does not mean that people had no choice. That means He chose to make a way.
    By belief in Jesus, the truth, and His making us clean as a result, we are saved. We were not born clean. We were given the opportunity to chose salvation. The salvation comes with the choosing and the resulting sanctification or cleaning of the Spirit after we are born of the spirit. Before that we were born of the flesh.
    If any man COMETH to me, Jesus said, Him will I in no way cast off. We need to knock, to ask and then we receive. Jesus did not die for nothing. If it was all predestined and we had no real say, He would not need to have died to have given us the choice! Those preaching predestination therefore make the cross of Christ to no avail.
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    You did not answer the question about the thief on the cross being a part of the New Covenant.

    Nobody in the Old Testament was saved by their own works, based on Hebrews chapter 11. They were saved by their "faith" in the Messiah that was to come and bring in the New Covenant promised in Genesis 12:3, and Jeremiah 31:31-34.


    Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
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