God's Triune Relation to Time

elopez

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2010
2,503
92
Lansing, MI
✟18,206.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
This is something I was thinking about last night and decided to bring it up here for two reasons. The first is because I feel like it gives thought to an attribute of God that receives the least amount of attention -- omnipresence. The second because I feel like this hasn't been considered by those who are interested in the quarrel of time and God, and if it has, I haven't seen it discussed.

If God exists temporally only and experiences time as we do, then He does not exist outside of time and is not atemporal. If God does not exist outside of time, then God is not omnipresent, since to be omnipresent is to exist everywhere simultaneously. Thus, if God exists temporally only He is not omnipresent.

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that God must exist atemporally and temporally simultaneously, both in time and outside of it. That would be the only way God wold encompass actual omnipresence. What I mean by this can only be expounded in terms of the Holy Trinity.

The three persons of the Trinity co - existed eternally, that is, without beginning and end to existence. Thus each person of the Trinity is atemporal sans creation, though this doesn't remain for each person after creation. For instance, as the second person of the Trinity was incarnated it could be said that God as the Son Christ experienced temporality, or that Christ the Son as God experienced temporality. However, God the Father did not become incarnate and therefore remained the same as He did sans creation which is atemporal. So I suppose it could be said that God the Father is invariably atemporal, and the Son Christ sans creation is atemporal and after creation was temporal yet after his death 'became' atemporal with the Father again until his return, in which case Christ will then again be temporal.

The Holy Spirit is again atemporal sans creation but temporal after creation. The Holy Spirit interacts on earth with creation, but as the Holy Spirit is not God the Father God the Father remains timeless while the Holy Spirit facilitates on earth
.

The question, "Is God in time or outside of time?" becomes a false dilemma, in that not either is solely correct. It may be that God exists outside and in time. Not that God existed outside of time sans creation and then in time only after creation, since again that is to neglect the Triune nature of God and omnipresence. The only way we could claim that God exists outside of time sans and after creation only is to mean in the sense of God the Father remaining atemporally with creation as He did with the incarnation. God is not solely existent in time, for again this is to neglect the omnipresence of God and also the theological fact that God is Triune in nature and operates as such.

God has a Truine relationship to time, not just one, or that's what it seems like to me if God is both omnipresent and Triune in nature.
 

elopez

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2010
2,503
92
Lansing, MI
✟18,206.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Stop trying to rationalize that which is not rational.

'Time' is a human construction to explain particular physical phenomena. The Trinity is an explanation of that which lies outside humanities experience.
Surely God is not irrational because this all makes sense. I don't understand why I would discontinue contemplating the divine just because He cannot be fully understood.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Stop trying to rationalize that which is not rational.

'Time' is a human construction to explain particular physical phenomena. The Trinity is an explanation of that which lies outside humanities experience.
:)
The ancient Hebrews had an interesting concept of time

Concepts in Time

The modern western mind views time as linear with a beginning and end. Whether you ascribe to the theory of evolution or creation, the timeline for planet earth is the same, a beginning and an end. The creationist views this span of time in the thousands of years with the beginning the creation of the earth by the hand of God and its destruction also by the hand of God. The evolutionist views this span in the billions of years with the beginning the creation of the earth through cataclysmic events and its destruction through another cataclysmic event.

Time is not linear it is circular. A clock is not a timeline but a circle for the simple reason that time does not begin or stop, it continues without beginning or end. In the same fashion days and years are also circular.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number H6256 matches the Hebrew עֵת (`eth), which occurs 296 times in 258 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G5550 matches the Greek χρόνος (chronos), which occurs 53 times in 53 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Cyndi Lauper - Time After Time (HQ) - YouTube
 
Upvote 0

elopez

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2010
2,503
92
Lansing, MI
✟18,206.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Time is not linear it is circular. A clock is not a timeline but a circle for the simple reason that time does not begin or stop, it continues without beginning or end. In the same fashion days and years are also circular.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" - Genesis 1:1.

Surely this verse does not imply that God's existence had a beginning, but the heavens and the earth did. So as God created the universe it had a beginning. Time was generated along side with the universe, or said differently time began with the universe. Why would we accept that time does not have a beginning when Scripture declares the universe had a beginning?

Time must be eternal then just as God is, in which case the universe must have always existed and had no beginning either. According to this eternalness view of time it nullifies the need for God as Creator as the universe and time has no origin.

I would say that only God truly experiences eternity and is without beginning and end. So what does it mean to say that days and years do not begin or end?
 
Upvote 0

Jig

Christ Follower
Oct 3, 2005
4,529
399
Texas
✟8,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
This is something I was thinking about last night and decided to bring it up here for two reasons. The first is because I feel like it gives thought to an attribute of God that receives the least amount of attention -- omnipresence. The second because I feel like this hasn't been considered by those who are interested in the quarrel of time and God, and if it has, I haven't seen it discussed.

If God exists temporally only and experiences time as we do, then He does not exist outside of time and is not atemporal. If God does not exist outside of time, then God is not omnipresent, since to be omnipresent is to exist everywhere simultaneously. Thus, if God exists temporally only He is not omnipresent.

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that God must exist atemporally and temporally simultaneously, both in time and outside of it. That would be the only way God wold encompass actual omnipresence. What I mean by this can only be expounded in terms of the Holy Trinity.

The three persons of the Trinity co - existed eternally, that is, without beginning and end to existence. Thus each person of the Trinity is atemporal sans creation, though this doesn't remain for each person after creation. For instance, as the second person of the Trinity was incarnated it could be said that God as the Son Christ experienced temporality, or that Christ the Son as God experienced temporality. However, God the Father did not become incarnate and therefore remained the same as He did sans creation which is atemporal. So I suppose it could be said that God the Father is invariably atemporal, and the Son Christ sans creation is atemporal and after creation was temporal yet after his death 'became' atemporal with the Father again until his return, in which case Christ will then again be temporal.

The Holy Spirit is again atemporal sans creation but temporal after creation. The Holy Spirit interacts on earth with creation, but as the Holy Spirit is not God the Father God the Father remains timeless while the Holy Spirit facilitates on earth
.

The question, "Is God in time or outside of time?" becomes a false dilemma, in that not either is solely correct. It may be that God exists outside and in time. Not that God existed outside of time sans creation and then in time only after creation, since again that is to neglect the Triune nature of God and omnipresence. The only way we could claim that God exists outside of time sans and after creation only is to mean in the sense of God the Father remaining atemporally with creation as He did with the incarnation. God is not solely existent in time, for again this is to neglect the omnipresence of God and also the theological fact that God is Triune in nature and operates as such.

God has a Truine relationship to time, not just one, or that's what it seems like to me if God is both omnipresent and Triune in nature.

How do you reconcile the fact that God is immutable in your hypothesis? To go from atemporal to temporal and vice-versa - a change in nature must occur.
 
Upvote 0

wayseer

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2008
8,226
503
Maryborough, QLD, Australia
✟11,121.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Surely God is not irrational because this all makes sense. I don't understand why I would discontinue contemplating the divine just because He cannot be fully understood.

I would suggest you are not 'contemplating' at all - rather you are rationalizing - there is a difference.

Of course God cannot be fully understood. We see only through a glass dimly. The adherence to the pursuit of rational explanations is little more than worldly philosophy masked as Christianity. Jesus set us free from such concepts.
 
Upvote 0

Optimax

Senior Veteran
May 7, 2006
17,659
448
New Mexico
✟41,659.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Time had a beginning and it is not eternal as God is. Time has an ending.

Rev 10:6

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
KJV
 
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,362
7,742
Canada
✟721,286.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
in the final state there will be no light of the sun, just God to light the creation . so yeah . time as we know it now (as that which begins and that which ends) will stop . but there are other ways of keeping time .
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

elopez

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2010
2,503
92
Lansing, MI
✟18,206.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I would suggest you are not 'contemplating' at all - rather you are rationalizing - there is a difference.

Of course God cannot be fully understood. We see only through a glass dimly. The adherence to the pursuit of rational explanations is little more than worldly philosophy masked as Christianity. Jesus set us free from such concepts.
Hm. Well, I am pretty sure I am exercising thought here. It would take contemplation to even begin to rationalize, so yeah. There's a difference but the two are related.

I don't see exactly what makes a discussion on time and God so 'worldly.' Of course it may be philosophical in nature, but I don't really see the problem in that, either. If you do not wish to contemplate eternity, time, and God then fine, but I don't see how you can get off trying to tell other people not to think of them either.
 
Upvote 0

elopez

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2010
2,503
92
Lansing, MI
✟18,206.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single

How do you reconcile the fact that God is immutable in your hypothesis? To go from atemporal to temporal and vice-versa - a change in nature must occur.
Immutable means that no change occurs in God's nature. For example if God is immutable then He is necessarily eternal, meaning that there is no possible world in which God would not be eternal. The same could be said true of all the other attributes of God so that all attributes of God are essential.

So when Christ the Son became incarnate no intrinsic change ever came about. None of the essential properties of God were taken away so to speak but just that he took on human form, so really only an extrinsic change came about.

See with God the Father however He remained atemporal through the incarnation as He did sans creation, so it could be said that no extrinsic change at all occurred with the God the Father.
 
Upvote 0

Optimax

Senior Veteran
May 7, 2006
17,659
448
New Mexico
✟41,659.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
in the final state there will be no light of the sun, just God to light the creation . so yeah . time as we know it now (as that which begins and that which ends) will stop . but there are other ways of keeping time .


Interesting statement!

What are the other ways of keeping time when time is no longer, how would one keep account of something that is no more.

Why would one want to "keep time" when there is no longer time and is irrelevant.
 
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,362
7,742
Canada
✟721,286.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Interesting statement!

What are the other ways of keeping time when time is no longer, how would one keep account of something that is no more.

Why would one want to "keep time" when there is no longer time and is irrelevant.

Time as far as "keeping" may very well be irrelevant without covetousness .. but even in the beginning a day was measured by a purpose beginning and ending . and it took as long as it took .

for example .
 
Upvote 0