God's Test of Human Souls: Is it fair?

[copernicus]

Consider the following premises:

1) God is omniscient.
2) God creates human souls.
3) God gives human souls natural lives to test their ability behave according to standards defined by God.
4) God rewards those souls that pass the test with a reasonably pleasant immortal existence.
5) God fails to reward those souls that do not pass the test.

When I say that God is omniscient, that means that God knows everything about his creations.

I will finesse the concept of what a "soul" is. Some consider the same thing as a mind, but not everyone does. It is endemic in the Christian belief system that souls can exist independently of bodies and that they have some capacity for mental activities.

I am not concerned with whether God sends sinners to eternal torment. Not all Christians believe that, but all Christians do seem to believe that life is some kind of test of our character. Good people are rewarded with salvation, and bad people are not.

Is 1-5 a fair description of beliefs that Christians hold? If so, then I contend that God is either impossible or is unfair. My reasoning is as follows:

A) If God is omniscient, then God knows how his creations will behave.
B) A fair test is one in which the test conditions are the same for all tested subjects.
C) Given (A), God does not need to test souls. He already knows how the test will turn out.
D) Given (B), God is unfair. Not all people are exposed to the same moral tests or given the same amount of time to redeem themselves. The test conditions are not the same.

Therefore, God (in the sense of 1-5) either does not exist or is unfair.

Comments?

 

[Osiris]

Yup, I hold the same view.
He does not exist or if he does(since I do not claim to know everything), he is not just.

Another thing that I would like to add is that salvation is more like a lottery.

1. Out of billion of different species, you have to be lucky enough to be born into the human species. (hardest part to pass since the odds of being born a human are very slim i would suppose)
2. If you are lucky enough to be born into the human species(you would be almost there), you would have to be lucky enough to be born into the right religion.
3. If you are born into the right religion, you would then have to be lucky (or unlucky ) enough to hold that religion's point of view towards God.

Well, 2 or 3 doesn't necessary have to happen, as long as sometime in that person's life he starts assuming what his religion says as true without any logical explanation.

 

[UnI]

A clear and concise arguement Copernicus. Given the above premise I tend to agree. An Omniscient being, which would know the ending result of his testees, truly, is not conducting a test at all. This type of God cannot exist.

 

[12volt_man]

Is 1-5 a fair description of beliefs that Christians hold?

No. 3-5 are false.

 

[copernicus]

No. 3-5 are false.

Thanks, for your response, 12volt_man, terse as it was. Here are premises 3-5:

3) God gives human souls natural lives to test their ability behave according to standards defined by God.
4) God rewards those souls that pass the test with a reasonably pleasant immortal existence.
5) God fails to reward those souls that do not pass the test.

You appear to be a Christian, but you claim that these are false statements about the Christian God. Since some Christians appear to disagree with you, it would be helpful if you gave some explanation of why you disagree with other Christians.

 

[wvernon]

1) God is omniscient, however, being all powerful, I believe he can choose not to know certain things.
2) God creates human souls in the beginning for what seems like friendship?? He created Adam and Eve who walked with Him and talked with Him in the Garden of Eden. But what would the love of friends be without a choice whether or not to love someone. So God created the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam and Eve now had the choice whether to be with God or to leave him. For the day that they ate of the fruit of the tree, they tasted certain death and separation from God. However, God does not allow the human race to suffer irreparable eternal separation from Himself. Thousands of years in the future, he provides his son, Jesus, as a means to repair the relationship between men and Himself. Those who truly love God and want to be friends with Him again choose to repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and the relationship with God is repaired.

3) Men are not tested on whether they can sufficiently live up to God's standards. Rather men are allowed their entire natural lives to repair the relationship that had been broken by sin. If they have not repaired the relationship before they die, unfortunately, there is no way sinful men can enter into Heaven.
4) God rewards those souls who have repaired their relationship with Him and they get to spend forever in His presence.
5) Men who have not repaired the relationship with God cannot enter into heaven because men tainted by sin cannot enter his Holy presence.

If this is not enough, I would be happy to explain anything you may have questions about.

In Christ,
Bill V.

 

[trase]

Is " The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil " the TRUTH ??


Absolutely NOT !! Christian theology claims that Adam and Eve were created perfect and they lived in a "perfect" Garden of Eden. It was only AFTER they ate from the "forbidden tree" that God threw them out of the Garden for disobeying him.
In what way were Adam and Eve " perfect " BEFORE they ate from the tree ?? Answer : They were ANIMALS because only animals don't know the difference between good and evil !!!
The " inspired " Bible writer made a cardinal mistake by claiming that God created the " perfect garden" where there was NO knowledge of good and evil . Impossible !!! Such a place could never exist. While God might CREATE something akin to evil , good CAN NOT be CREATED , because good is God himself !!! Heaven is perfection because it is only good. A state of " no good and no evil" could NEVER exist and neither could such a tree exist !!!



Cheers

 

[Emmy]

Dear Copernicus,when God tests us,(we are all souls,covered in human flesh)He wants to be sure that we are ready to live with Him again for eternity.God wants us to love Him with all our being(soul and mind)and He also wants our absolute loyalty.God also wants us to love each other,as we love ourselves.Think about it,would any of us ill-treat,or abuse,or in any form hurt ourselves?God wants us to live in His Kingdom,not in another world like ours,where everything goes.God will test each one of us the same,How Great is Our Love? The key to Heaven is LOVE.Sincere greetings from Emmy,a sister in Christ.

 

[Petr]

I don't think God *wants* anything. God is not a human being that wants things, or has emotions.

 

[Sanguine]

God is not a human being that wants things, or has emotions.

If he has no emotions, what was driving all that old testament wrath?

 

[12volt_man]

You appear to be a Christian, but you claim that these are false statements about the Christian God. Since some Christians appear to disagree with you, it would be helpful if you gave some explanation of why you disagree with other Christians.

Since it is your premise, it would be helpful for you to show where in scripture this things are found.

Romans chapter 5 explains the problems with #4-5 in great detail.

 

[Carico]

I fail to see how God tests us. He simply tells us right and wrong through the Ten Commandments and Christ's words. we either believe Him or think we know better. It all depends on which one we think has more answers, the Creator or created.

 

[UMP]

Consider the following premises:

1) God is omniscient.
2) God creates human souls.
3) God gives human souls natural lives to test their ability behave according to standards defined by God.
4) God rewards those souls that pass the test with a reasonably pleasant immortal existence.
5) God fails to reward those souls that do not pass the test.

When I say that God is omniscient, that means that God knows everything about his creations.

I will finesse the concept of what a "soul" is. Some consider the same thing as a mind, but not everyone does. It is endemic in the Christian belief system that souls can exist independently of bodies and that they have some capacity for mental activities.

I am not concerned with whether God sends sinners to eternal torment. Not all Christians believe that, but all Christians do seem to believe that life is some kind of test of our character. Good people are rewarded with salvation, and bad people are not.

Is 1-5 a fair description of beliefs that Christians hold? If so, then I contend that God is either impossible or is unfair. My reasoning is as follows:

A) If God is omniscient, then God knows how his creations will behave.
B) A fair test is one in which the test conditions are the same for all tested subjects.
C) Given (A), God does not need to test souls. He already knows how the test will turn out.
D) Given (B), God is unfair. Not all people are exposed to the same moral tests or given the same amount of time to redeem themselves. The test conditions are not the same.

Therefore, God (in the sense of 1-5) either does not exist or is unfair.

Comments?

Here is the answer, whether you like it or not.

Job 9:
[1] Then Job answered and said,
[2] I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
[3] If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.
[4] He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?
[5] Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.
[6] Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
[7] Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.
[8] Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
[9] Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.
[10] Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.
[11] Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.
[12] Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[UMP]

Consider the following premises:

1) God is omniscient.
2) God creates human souls.
3) God gives human souls natural lives to test their ability behave according to standards defined by God.
4) God rewards those souls that pass the test with a reasonably pleasant immortal existence.
5) God fails to reward those souls that do not pass the test.

When I say that God is omniscient, that means that God knows everything about his creations.

I will finesse the concept of what a "soul" is. Some consider the same thing as a mind, but not everyone does. It is endemic in the Christian belief system that souls can exist independently of bodies and that they have some capacity for mental activities.

I am not concerned with whether God sends sinners to eternal torment. Not all Christians believe that, but all Christians do seem to believe that life is some kind of test of our character. Good people are rewarded with salvation, and bad people are not.

Is 1-5 a fair description of beliefs that Christians hold? If so, then I contend that God is either impossible or is unfair. My reasoning is as follows:

A) If God is omniscient, then God knows how his creations will behave.
B) A fair test is one in which the test conditions are the same for all tested subjects.
C) Given (A), God does not need to test souls. He already knows how the test will turn out.
D) Given (B), God is unfair. Not all people are exposed to the same moral tests or given the same amount of time to redeem themselves. The test conditions are not the same.

Therefore, God (in the sense of 1-5) either does not exist or is unfair.

Comments?

Here is more:

Romans 9:
[13] As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
[14] What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Do you really want to understand God the way He is?
If so, you must humble yourself and pray.

James 4:
[6] But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

[10] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

 

[mystricat]

I will finesse the concept of what a "soul" is. Some consider the same thing as a mind, but not everyone does. It is endemic in the Christian belief system that souls can exist independently of bodies and that they have some capacity for mental activities.
A human being is made up of three things: spirit, soul and body
we are spirit and we live in a body and possess a soul

I am not concerned with whether God sends sinners to eternal torment. Not all Christians believe that, but all Christians do seem to believe that life is some kind of test of our character. Good people are rewarded with salvation, and bad people are not.You should be concerned, because there is eternal torment for those who have not accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

Is 1-5 a fair description of beliefs that Christians hold? If so, then I contend that God is either impossible or is unfair. My reasoning is as follows:

A) If God is omniscient, then God knows how his creations will behave.
He is and He does
B) A fair test is one in which the test conditions are the same for all tested subjects.
We ALL fall short of the glory of God. God is not a respecter of persons. The same criteria exists for everyone
C) Given (A), God does not need to test souls. He already knows how the test will turn out.
Very good, you're getting it!!
D) Given (B), God is unfair. Not all people are exposed to the same moral tests or given the same amount of time to redeem themselves. The test conditions are not the same.

Therefore, God (in the sense of 1-5) either does not exist or is unfair.

God is both Just and Fair. That is why he sent Jesus to the cross. We aren't not perfect...we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. God doesn't require us to pass any tests, he requires us to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. We need to say thank you Lord Jesus for loving us enough to take our sins upon yourself. We cannot save ourselves. God created this world...he created us. This is His world!! He has a plan for us...give your life to Jesus and find out what that plan is!!! God doesn't want anyone to suffer eternal damnation, His will is for all of us to be saved...and He has given us the way out...through Jesus. That is both JUST and FAIR. He has given you a free will and a choice. What will you do?
Love in Christ,
Mystricat

 

[franklin]

Is 1-5 a fair description of beliefs that Christians hold? If so, then I contend that God is either impossible or is unfair. My reasoning is as follows:

Therefore, God (in the sense of 1-5) either does not exist or is unfair.

Comments?

If the Christian god of the bible were really a true God with all of the alleged characteristics of omniscience, then there wouldn't be any need for him to test the humans he created. It would be pointless.

This whole test mentality that Christians fall for is all based on giving them the idea that they are convinced that they can somehow think they will be able to measure up to His standard and eventually be like God themselves.

That's why I started to put the Christian God to the test a few years ago and he has failed miserably to the point where I now thank the true God where ever IT is located somewhere out there in the cosmos that I am an atheist.

The Christian God is obvious of the fact that he looks just as confused as the primitive men who invented it and those who continually force themselves to believe in such a myth.

 

[Logic]

A human being is made up of three things: spirit, soul and body
we are spirit and we live in a body and possess a soul

It seems to me that everything that defines who we are iswithin our physical body. If someone's physical body gets damaged, (they get hit in the head with a shovel and rendered stupid) their soul isn't going to remember stuff for them.

You should be concerned, because there is eternal torment for those who have not accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

I'm not even going to touch that, do you understand how unjust and cruel that concept is?

A) If God is omniscient, then God knows how his creations will behave.

He is and He does

Hence predestination.

We ALL fall short of the glory of God. God is not a respecter of persons. The same criteria exists for everyone

The conditions are not the same for everyone, think about moslems who think the same thing about you. You had a chance to accept Allah as lord, but you rejected it, was Allah's test fair for both you and them if you've only had a good deal of exposure to christianity?

Very good, you're getting it!!

You do realize that you're denouncing free will, right?

God is both Just and Fair. That is why he sent Jesus to the cross. We aren't not perfect...we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Right, but you didn't have the same chance to convert to islam that an Iraqui did, the test is unfair.

God doesn't require us to pass any tests, he requires us to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. We need to say thank you Lord Jesus for loving us enough to take our sins upon yourself.

How is that not a test?

We cannot save ourselves. God created this world...he created us. This is His world!!

Hosanna in the highest!

He has a plan for us...give your life to Jesus and find out what that plan is!!!

You must assimilate​

God doesn't want anyone to suffer eternal damnation, His will is for all of us to be saved...and He has given us the way out...through Jesus.

You're saying that God has already planned for some of us to suffer eternal damnation, he must have weanted us to.

That is both JUST and FAIR. He has given you a free will and a choice. What will you do?

Love in Christ,
Mystricat

"if God is omniscient, then God knows how his creations will behave.
He is and He does"

 

[copernicus]

Thanks, all, for your thoughtful comments. I'll try to respond to all of you, but some responses require more though than others.

I don't think God *wants* anything. God is not a human being that wants things, or has emotions.

OK, Petr, but you call yourself a gnostic, and I was careful to frame the argument in terms of a more orthodox view of the Christian god.

 

[copernicus]

Since it is your premise, it would be helpful for you to show where in scripture this things are found.

Romans chapter 5 explains the problems with #4-5 in great detail.

I did not mention scripture, 12volt_man. If you think that 3-5 are not compatible with your interpretation of scripture, it would help for you to explain the incompatibility. That would be far more helpful than referring me to sections of the Bible and expecting me to interpret those sections the same way that you do.

 

[copernicus]

1) God is omniscient, however, being all powerful, I believe he can choose not to know certain things.

What you are saying is that God can be both omniscient and not omniscient. This is a simple contradiction, and it would make the concept of God logically impossible. Hence, I could legitimately conclude that he does not exist.

2) God creates human souls in the beginning for what seems like friendship?? He created Adam and Eve who walked with Him and talked with Him in the Garden of Eden. But what would the love of friends be without a choice whether or not to love someone. So God created the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam and Eve now had the choice whether to be with God or to leave him. For the day that they ate of the fruit of the tree, they tasted certain death and separation from God. However, God does not allow the human race to suffer irreparable eternal separation from Himself. Thousands of years in the future, he provides his son, Jesus, as a means to repair the relationship between men and Himself. Those who truly love God and want to be friends with Him again choose to repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and the relationship with God is repaired.

So, basically, you agree with my point #2. God creates human souls.

3) Men are not tested on whether they can sufficiently live up to God's standards. Rather men are allowed their entire natural lives to repair the relationship that had been broken by sin. If they have not repaired the relationship before they die, unfortunately, there is no way sinful men can enter into Heaven.

The content of the paragraph does not agree with the topic sentence. God's definition of "sin" represents a moral standard. If people don't pass the test, i.e. "repair the relationship", they fail the test.

4) God rewards those souls who have repaired their relationship with Him and they get to spend forever in His presence.

So you agree with #4.

5) Men who have not repaired the relationship with God cannot enter into heaven because men tainted by sin cannot enter his Holy presence.

And with #5.

If this is not enough, I would be happy to explain anything you may have questions about.

No questions, really. We seem to be in complete agreement on the premises, except for #1, which you disagree with on the basis of a contradiction. You did not comment on my conclusions.