God's Sovereignty & Man's Choice

[chuck]

I have been in discussions debates arguments ect for about 2 years on all this. One thing that I have seen come up time after time is people saying that for man to be able to choose would in some way take away from God's sovereignty.

My question here is would it in anyway take anything from God's soverneignty if He created man with the ability to choose?

 

[Christi]

I don't believe it takes away from His sovereignty. He is sovereign. He can choose whether to let us choose or not. I don't see how there could even be a debate about it. One does not negate the other.

 

[chuck]

Ok the next question I have is, if a person believes that man has no choice within himself to accept or reject Christ because of God's sovereignty, for no one can go againest the will of God. But isn't murder, stealing, worshiping other gods, and all other sins againest the will of God?

 

[filosofer]

if a person believes that man has no choice within himself to accept or reject Christ

But that is not the biblical stance. Man starts out rejecting Christ, that is the only "choice," namely to reject Christ.

 

[chuck]

"Man starts out rejecting Christ, that is the only "choice," namely to reject Christ."

I do believe that "rejection" is a default of not excepting Him. But for example is a 6 month old rejecting Him, or does the default apply also to the 6 month old?

 

[Christi]

I believe there is an age or a time in a person's life where they are made aware of Him and are enlightened enough to choose. I don't know when that is. I think that God is sovereign and intelligent enough not to want puppets to love Him. He wants people to love Him, because they choose to. Like we do. We are made in His image. I think the way children love Him...without reservation or doubt or embarrassment....is how He desires our love.

 

[rkbo]

This is how I handle stuff like this:

God has a soveriegn will and a permissive will.

His permissive will-
Luke 13:34
34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
(KJV)

Something he want but doesn't get.

His soveriegn will-
Eph 1:9-11
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(KJV)

Now the dilema. If God has purposed all things after his own will then our free will is one of his purposes. His plan is for us to have free will so you could say that his sovereign will "IS" for us to have free will.

Still not clear, eh...... well think of it this way. Gods forknowledge is such that he can start a plan knowing the end. He then by virtue of his knowledge can refer to one as being chosen from before creation but in the sense that he knows but doesn't cause your choice to choose him.

More needs to be said but I'll stop for now.

 

[chuck]

Then His permissive will would be allowing situations and circumstances to happen without Him being the direct cause?

For an example, John 6:44
-- New King James
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.


So in that verse God is setting into place the ability for people to accept Christ but at the sametime God is not "directly" making any of these people accept Christ? So when or if a person comes to accept Christ it is because the way was made by God yet the person within him/herself has to accept it?

 

[rkbo]

Yeah somthing like that. The world renown athiest Bertrand Russel wrote in one of his books (I forget which one) about just such a drawing of God's spirit. He didn't call it that but that is what it was. He said that he was looking as his newborn baby girls ear. How marvelouse it was. He started thinking of the eye and how it was designed.........ooops. What was he doing. That's right he was about to acknowlage a designer. He said that he stoped himself.......That was a clear conscience choice to reject God's drawing him unto the creator.

Now God's will was for Mr. Russel to accept him and his son. Mr. Russel would not. God knew before the creation that he would not. He gave him a chance anyway and let him make his own choice........God could say that he was not a chosen one because he knew he would reject him.

This verse is usualy taken out of context by many but it fits here
Rom 4:17
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
(KJV)

 

[Blackhawk]

rkbo,

Thank you for your wonderful posts. I have been wrestling lately with Unconditional election and how can God know before hand what we will choose but not have to see us doing it. Your posts have helped me further my belief in unconditional election while remaining in my belief that man has free choice. I do not have anything new to add. I just wanted to say that.
BH6

 

[pstroke]

Romans 3:23 All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Romans 3:11-12 There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.

Um...I'd like to stress the part where he says "not even one"

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

So...

All are lost,

none seek after God,

saved by faith which we had not 'till God gave it to us.

Sure we all have a choice, but it seems pretty clear to me the bible is saying that had not God given us the faith we have, we would all have chosen to reject Him.

 

[chuck]

pstroke I think thats what all that have posted here believe, I do not want to speak for the others, I will let them post back but for myself I do believe without God calling or as in John 6:44 "drawing" us to Christ that we would reject Him.

I have also heard people quote these verses:
-- New King James
Romans 9:15-18 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.'' So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "Even for this same purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared in all the earth.'' Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.


Now in that I have been told that it shows that God created Pharaoh for the purpose of hardening his heart. But when I read it, it shows to me that God raised Pharaoh up into the position of power because God knew the heart of Pharaoh, and basically it does not matter if you are for Him or againest Him He will use all to bring glory to Himself.
Then the last half of that, "Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." , who does He have mercy on? When I read on to:
- New King James
Romans 11:30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

What I see in that is God knows all are full of sin and seperated from Him but He allows this so all can obtain His mercy. The importian thing I see in there is it is HIS mercy and He wants to extended it to all.

Whats does everyone else think?