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God's Sabbath rest is not a weekly seventh day rest

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by Doveaman, Jul 9, 2017.

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  1. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    The covenant was simply an agreement between God and Israel.

    God said "Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;" Exodus 19:5

    Israel said: "All the people answered together and said, “All that the LORD has spoken we will do.” And Moses reported the words of the people to the LORD." Exodus 19:8
     
  2. Doveaman

    Doveaman Re-Created, Not Evolved.

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    Where did you find that quote?

    My bible reads differently:

    "It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." -- (Luke 16:17).

    Jesus is not merely talking about the Ten Commandments, He is talking about the Books of Moses (the Torah) and their prophetic predictions about Jesus. None of those predictions failed. Jesus fulfilled them all:

    "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." -- (Luke 24:44).
     
  3. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    Look at the Greek there for 'fail.'
     
  4. Doveaman

    Doveaman Re-Created, Not Evolved.

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    At least you agree that the old covenant is indeed the Ten Commandments.

    That’s a good place to start:

    "Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."...And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant — the Ten Commandments." -- (Exodus 34:27-28).
    You seem to be also admitting that the Ten Commandments will soon vanish.
    Yes, including the bible:

    “In that He says, ‘A new covenant,’ He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” -- (Hebrews 8:13).

    The author said the old covenant is ready to vanish away after saying it has been made obsolete.
    I think he is referring to the fact that some still choose to live by the old covenant despite that fact that it has been made obsolete. Even you are still clinging to the old covenant, so it has not yet vanished away for you, even though it has been made obsolete.

    The reason why the old covenant is called old is because it is outdated and no longer required. We are now under a new covenant: “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant — not of the letter but of the Spirit" -- (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

    Those who are under the new covenant don’t need the old one. You seem to be promoting the idea that we are under the new covenant as well as the old one, but Jesus alluded to the idea that we can ruin our faith if we try to mix the two:

    “No one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, he pours new wine into new wineskins." -- (Mark 2:22)
    Love is the fulfillment of the law. We establishing the law by living a life of love. The scriptures do not tell us that the law is the fulfillment of love, instead it tells us that love is the fulfillment of the law:

    “The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”
    -- (Romans 13:9-10).

    Christians live by one rule, not ten rules, and that one rule is love: “A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."..."And this is His commandment: to believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as He commanded us.-- (John 13:34-35, 1 John 3:23).
    But you already admitted that the Ten Commandments is the old covenant, and Galatians does talk about both covenants:

    "Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?
    For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent the two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar…But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother…Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise…But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman."
    -- (Galatians 4:21-31).

    I don’t know if you appreciate what Paul is teaching here in Galatians 4, but Paul is teaching that Hagar and her slave son represented the old covenant given at Mount Sinai, while Isaac and his mother represented the new covenant that is based on faith in God’s promise. Paul then tells us that Hagar and her son who represented the old covenant were cast out, because the slave children of the old covenant will not share in the eternal inheritance with the free children of the new covenant. This is because the eternal inheritance is given, not by the works of the law from Mount Sinai, but by faith in God's eternal promise.

    "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law." -- (Romans 9:30-32).
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
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  5. WailingWall

    WailingWall Regular Member

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    Is circumcision a law covenant?

    ACTS 7 [8] And he gave him the COVENANT OF CIRCUMCISION: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.

    Yup
     
  6. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    Why? I have done as requested. I fail to see you point.

    bugkiller
     
  7. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello Steve.

    Which translation are you quoting from?
     
  8. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    Paraphrase of ESV.

    Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon defines the word underlying the English 'fail' specifically in Luke 16:27.

    Here is the definition: to lose authority, to no longer have force.

    So my rendering of that passage is faithful to the Greek, using Thayer's Lexicon.
     
  9. Doveaman

    Doveaman Re-Created, Not Evolved.

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    There was no 7th day Sabbath rest applicable to Adam anywhere in Genesis. The 7th day rest in the law was first introduce to the Jews after they left Egypt, and this was some 430 years after Abraham:

    “The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed…What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.” -- (Galatians 3:16-17).
    The only rest that remains is a permanent state of rest from our works, just as God’s rest was a permanent state of rest from His works: “for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own works, just as God did from His.” -- (Hebrews 4:1-10).

    God’s rest is not a temporary day of rest on weekends, but is a permanent state of rest from since the creation of the world. This is why God’s rest continued throughout the time of David and even to this day: “For we who have believed do enter that rest…although the works were finished from since the creation of the world.” -- (Hebrews 4:3).
    God in Exodus 20 is commanding Israel to observe a memorial day of rest commemorating His permanent state of rest from His creation works.

    The memorial day of rest and God’s permanent state of rest are not the same thing, just as the memorial day of independence on the 4th of July is not the same thing as the permanent state of independence that existed since 1776.

    The memorial day of independence on the 4th of July is just a yearly reminder of the permanent state of freedom in the USA. The memorial day of independence is the shadow. The permanent state of freedom is the reality.

    Likewise, the memorial day of rest on the 7th day is just weekly reminder of God’s permanent state of rest from His creation works. The memorial day of rest is the shadow. God’s permanent state of rest is the reality.

    Under the old covenant, God’s people were required to observed the memorial day of rest.
    Under the new covenant, God’s people are invited into His permanent state of rest.

    “Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest…and you will find rest for your souls.” -- (Matthew 11:28-29).
    Isiah 66 is describing future events in metaphorical terms, not literal terms:

    “From New Moon to New Moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” -- (Isaiah 66:23-24).

    In your literal interpretation of Isiah 66 you seem to be suggesting that the messianic age to come will be littered with dead bodies and immortal worms being burnt in everlasting fire.

    If the dead bodies, the immortal worms, and the everlasting fire are not literal, then the New Moon and Sabbaths are also not literal, since they are all being described within the same context.
    Ha, that’s funny. The memorial is the shadow. :)

    The reason why it’s called a shadow is because it is not the real thing, it’s only a memorial to the real thing.
    That’s not my argument. That’s your strawman.

    I am not denying that the 7th day was established as a Sabbath rest to the Lord. I am simply making the distinction between the temporary day of rest and God’s permanent state of rest. It’s an important distinction that should not be overlooked.

    When God rested on the 7th day from His creation works, it was a permanent state of rest and not a temporary day of rest. God’s Sabbath rest from His creation works is a permanent state of rest that continued to remain even after the 7th day came to a close. This, again, is why Hebrews tell us: “For we who have believed do enter that rest…although the works were finished from since the creation of the world.” -- (Hebrews 4:3).

    God permanently finished His works from since the creation of the world, and God permanently ceased from His works from since the creation of the world, and God Sabbath rest permanently remains for His people from since the creation of the world: “There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own works, just as God did from His.” -- (Hebrews 4:9-10).

    The Sabbath rest for the people of God is a permanent state of rest, just as God’s Sabbath rest is a permanent state of rest. The people of God permanently rest from their fleshly works of human nature, just as God permanently rest from His physical works since the creation of the world.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  10. WailingWall

    WailingWall Regular Member

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    At least you agree that that the 10 are a covenant.

    Thats a good place to start.

    EPHES. 2 [11] Wherefore remember, that ye being IN TIME PAST GENTILES in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANTS OF PROMISE, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

    We {gentiles}were once STRANGERS from Gods covenants of promise, having no hope. BUT NOW in Christ, should we take hold of those covenants, we have hope

    ISAIAH 56 [6] Also the sons of THE STRANGER, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH from polluting it, and TAKETH HOLD OF MY COVENANT; [7] EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for ALL PEOPLE.

    Even them (us gentile STRANGERS mentioned in Ephes.2) will He bring to His holy mountain, if we should take hold of His sabbath covenant. Jesus will bring us to the 1000yr period of rest

    EXODUS 31 [16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the SABBATH, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a PERPETUAL COVENANT.

    The above scripture points to one of those covenants spoken of in Ephes.2

    ROMANS 1 [30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [31] without understanding, COVENANTBREAKERS, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: [32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    And you can see who Paul lumps in with the covenantbreakers. Not good company
     
  11. WailingWall

    WailingWall Regular Member

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    Not surprised that your book says "obsolete"

    HEBREWS 8 [13] In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, HE HATH MADE THE FIRST OLD. NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.

    But the bible says its growing old. Well..... im growing old but im not obsolete

    And im still here!
     
  12. WailingWall

    WailingWall Regular Member

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    According to the scriptures Jesus did not do away with the law but made the law greater. He magnified the law to a spiritual level. He made the 10 commandments even harder to keep.

    2 COR. 3 [6] WHO ALSO HATH MADE US ABLE MINISTERS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT; NOT OF THE LETTER, BUT OF THE SPIRIT: FOR THE LETTER KILLETH, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVETH LIFE. [7] But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: [8] How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

    ROMANS 7 [4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [5] For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [6] But now we are DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER.

    As we can see in above scriptures Doveaman we are now to walk in the spirit of the law. If we walk only in the letter of the law this will lead to death, but if we walk in the spirit of the law this leads to life.

    MATTHEW 5 [20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. [21] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, THOU SHALT NOT KILL; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22] BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, THAT WHOSOEVER IS ANGRY WITH HIS BROTHER WITHOUT A CAUSE SHALL BE IN DANGER OF THE JUDGMENT: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    OLD LETTER- Thou shalt not kill

    NEW SPIRIT- Don’t even get angry. Call no man a fool. Love one another in thought, word and deed.

    MATTHEW 5 [27] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, thou shalt not commit adultery: [28] But i say unto you, that WHOSOEVER LOOKETH ON A WOMAN TO LUST AFTER HER HATH COMMITTED ADULTERY with her already in his heart.

    OLD LETTER- Thou shalt not commit adultery

    NEW SPIRIT- Do not look on a woman to lust. Keep the law in our mind and spirit. Even in our eyes.

    So you can see that Jesus did not do away with the letter of the law. Common sense will tell ya in order to walk in the spirit of the law you must also be walking in the letter. Jesus made the commandments even harder to keep and more honorable.

    ISAIAH 42 [20] Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.[21] The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; HE WILL MAGNIFY THE LAW, and make it honourable.

    You like to claim Jesus got rid of His law but scripture says He magnified the law. He took the letter of the law (which leads to death) and magnified the law to a spiritual level (which leads to life).
     
  13. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello WailingWall.

    That translation you quoted (Romans 1:31).
    How do the translators of the KJV obtain, 'covenant breakers', from the Koine Greek word, asynthetos?

    Asynthetos just means not complex, i.e., simple.

    I do not understand how they translated the Greek the way they did.
     
  14. WailingWall

    WailingWall Regular Member

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    Really? Yikes!

    REV.14 [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND THE FAITH OF JESUS.

    Someone better explain that to Gods Saints!
     
  15. WailingWall

    WailingWall Regular Member

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    Hi klutedavid. Many years ago i watched one guy argue with another about a word being plural or singular in the greek. Went on for a week. No winner. What strikes my funny bone is the number of people who think they alone can come up with a better translation than the best 47 scholars and linguists of that time who were 400 yrs closer to the language. Its laughable but thats what they claim.
     
  16. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello WW.

    I would not call them Greek scholars, they had to learn the Koine Greek themselves.
    There were no universities in those days.

    I cannot see how asynthetos, i.e., not complex, could ever be translated as covenant breakers. This is one of the most bizarre translations I think I have ever seen.

    We can surpass the KJV translation by merely translating asynthetos correctly.
     
  17. WailingWall

    WailingWall Regular Member

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    Surely i appreciate the writings of Paul

    GALATIANS 4 [21] Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? [22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. [23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. [24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the TWO COVENANTS; THE ONE FROM THE MOUNT SINAI, WHICH GENDERETH TO BONDAGE, WHICH IS AGAR. [25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. [26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.......... [30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

    Is the above scripture speaking of the 10 commandments as you claim or is it simply speaking of circumcision?

    EXODUS 34 [28] And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the COVENANT, the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

    ACTS 7 [8] And he gave him the COVENANT OF CIRCUMCISION: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.

    BOTH the 10 commandments and circumcision were givin as “covenants”

    EXODUS 24 [12] And the Lord said unto Moses, COME UP TO ME INTO THE MOUNT, and be there: and I WILL GIVE THEE tables of stone, AND A LAW, AND COMMANDMENTS which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

    LEVITICUS 7 [37] THIS IS THE LAW OF THE BURNT OFFERING, of the meat offering, and of the sin offering, and of the trespass offering, and of the consecrations, and of the sacrifice of the peace offerings; [38] WHICH THE LORD COMMANDED MOSES IN MOUNT SINAI, in the day that he commanded the children of Israel to offer their oblations unto the Lord, in the wilderness of Sinai.

    Both covenants, the 10 commandments and the law of Moses were given at Mt Sinai.

    JOHN 7 [21] Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.[22] MOSES THEREFORE GAVE UNTO YOU CIRCUMCISION; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.[23] If a man on the sabbath day RECEIVE CIRCUMCISION, THAT THE LAW OF MOSES SHOULD NOT BE BROKEN; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

    Circumcision is of the law of Moses and given at Sinai. So which of these, the 10 commandments or circumcision do the scriptures say bring us into “bondage” {Gal.4:24}?

    And the winner is....

    GALATIANS 5 [1] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and BE NOT ENTANGLED AGAIN WITH THE YOKE OF BONDAGE. [2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that IF YE BE CIRCUMCISED, CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING.

    And again... The winner is!

    GALATIANS 2 [3] But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was COMPELLED TO BE CIRCUMCISED: [4]And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might BRING US INTO BONDAGE:
     
  18. WailingWall

    WailingWall Regular Member

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    Nah. That aint the most bizarre

    In Acts 12:4 the Greek word, "pascha" (*Strong's number 3957) is translated "Easter" instead of the correct translation of "Passover". Everywhere else the same exact word is translated Passover
     
  19. WailingWall

    WailingWall Regular Member

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    Ya might wanna read the new testament scriptures again and simply believe the scriptures.

    JEREMIAH 16 [19] O Lord, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, THE GENTILES SHALL COME UNTO THEE FROM THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, AND SHALL SAY, SURELY OUR FATHERS HAVE INHERITED LIES, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

    Jer.16 is a “Day of the Lord” scripture as is Matt.7. The “many” Gentiles have inherited lies. No profit! Why no profit?

    ISAIAH 48 [17] Thus saith THE LORD, THY REDEEMER, the Holy One of Israel; I AM THE LORD THY GOD WHICH TEACHETH THEE TO PROFIT, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O THAT THOU HADST HEARKENED TO MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

    Whose your Redeemer? Profit! The 10 commandments.
     
  20. WailingWall

    WailingWall Regular Member

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    Not ten?

    1JOHN 5 [2] By this WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

    Better start keeping the 10 dont ya think
     
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