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GOD'S REAL ISRAEL AND THE TRUE CHURCH?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by LoveGodsWord, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    WHO IS GOD'S TRUE ISRAEL AND CHURCH? (Part 1/2)

    ISRAEL (God’s new name given to Jacob) had 12 sons which make up the 12 tribes of ISRAEL

    GENESIS 35:22-26 [22], ... Now the sons of Jacob were twelve: [23], The sons of Leah; Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Zebulun: [24], The sons of Rachel; Joseph, and Benjamin: [25], And the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid; Dan, and Naphtali: [26], And the sons of Zilpah, Leah's handmaid; Gad, and Asher: these are the sons of Jacob, who were born to him in Paddanaram.

    God’s promise of the NEW COVENANT is to ISRAEL…

    JEREMIAH 31:31-34 [31], Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32], Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; my covenant which they broke, although I was a husband unto them, says the LORD: [33], But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    144, 000 Come out of the 12 tribes of ISRAEL…

    REVELATION 7:3-8 [3], Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. [4], And I heard the number of them who were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. [5], Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. [6], Of the tribe of Asher were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasseh were sealed twelve thousand. [7], Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. [8], Of the tribe of Zebulun were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

    Now we have shown the origin of the name ISRAEL let's look at the scripture in detail in the NEW TESTAMENT scripture to see who God's ISRAEL is...

    EPHESIANS 2:11-13 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

    [12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

    GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

    God's true ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are not by name only but all those in Christ. Those of the FLESH (sinful human nature) are not Abrahams seed but those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God in Christ are God's ISRAEL...

    ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

    God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...

    ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...

    COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

    ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

    The New Covenant is for God's Israel...

    EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.

    and again...

    JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Paul proclaims it here...

    HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

    The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD.

    If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12).

    ............

    CONCLUSION: God's ISRAEL is the name given by God to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. GENTILES are now grafted in. If you are not a part of the God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT. GOD'S ISRAEL ARE ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD (The Church)

    ............

    Question; What are your thoughts? Is God's true ISRAEL the Church?

    God bless..
     
  2. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    WHO IS GOD'S TRUE ISRAEL AND CHURCH? (Part 1/2)

    Firstly I believe God has his people in EVERY CHURCH as long as they are living up to all the KNOWLEDGE God has revealed to them through his WORD.

    JOHN 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    However God is calling his people out from following man made traditions to worship God in Spirit and in truth.

    JOHN 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    WHO IS GOD'S CHURCH?

    IS GOD'S CHURCH A BUILDING or a CHURCH ORGANISATION?

    Before we look at who God's WORD says is God's true Church, let's start off by looking at the GREEK meaning of the word Church which is ἐκκλησία which means a calling out or meeting.

    This links in very nicely with

    MATTHEW 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

    A Church therefore is the people the BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. They are the called out and Jesus is in the midst of them.

    WHO IS GOD'S TRUE CHURCH ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD?

    1 JOHN 2:3-4
    3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep <ALL> his commandments. 4, He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    REVELATION 12:17
    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    NOTE: In scripture a pure woman represents God's people [Church] Jeremiah 6:2; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:23-27

    REVELATION 14:12
    Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    REVELATION 22:14
    Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Notice God's people keep ALL of God's Commandments through FAITH in Christ?

    NOTE: God's saints keep ALL THE COMMANDMENTS of God. It is these people that are a remnant that the devil is making war with. They are called God's saints and these are the ones that have right to the tree of life.

    How many Church's do you see keeping all of God's Commandments?

    Friendly discussion please (it is ok to agree to disagree)

    What are your thoughts?
     
  3. Jesusismyking87!!

    Jesusismyking87!! Member

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    I have always believed and known that once we are saved and take Jesus as our Lord and savior that the gentiles become adopted within the Jewish nation of Israel for we under one spirit. Only for the gentile and the Jew that take Jesus as Lord and savior.
     
  4. Jesusismyking87!!

    Jesusismyking87!! Member

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    Also the two witnesses before Jesus returns will be the gentiles and the Jews.
     
  5. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    In a word, yes. But we risk now bringing up Replacement Theology. It raises eyebrows.
     
  6. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    Scripture makes a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church.

    1st. Corinthians 10:32(KJV)
    Give none offence , neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.
     
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  7. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi brother ItIsFinished! thanks for welcome and thanks for sharing your thoughts here. I agree with your post but just wanted to add that the scriptures also defines who God's true ISRAEL are in the NEW COVENANT and it is not the nation of ISRAEL, it is all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD (the Church)

    ROMANS 9:6-8
    [6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: [7], Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. [8], That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Thanks for sharing brother

    God bless
     
  8. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi brother HTacianas, thanks for your thougts here, which are always appreciated. I suppose I should google it as I have heard the term before. Not sure if I looked it up or not but what is the term replacement theology in your view? Is it just a term used by those who believe ISRAEL in God's WORD only refers to the nation of ISRAEL?
     
  9. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Replacement Theology has it that the Church has taken the place of Israel as God's chosen people. Recently there has been a backpedaling on the idea. While I hold no opinion on it I wonder sometimes if the "times of the gentiles" has been fulfilled, and the backpedaling is the turning from the gentiles back to the Jews.

    While I am not a dispensationalist in the customary usage of the term, I see what could be described as dispensations in Church history.
     
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  10. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi brother HTacianas, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I am not sure about much of the terminologies but the most important thing is God's WORD right? As long as we believe and follow it than all is good. I believe that God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are all those who believe and follow God's WORD. These are God's true Church where ever they may be.

    God bless
     
  11. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi Jesusismyking87, nice to meet you here brother. Thanks for sharing yourt thoughts. For me I always viewed the two witnesses as the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures

    God bless
     
  12. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    ***

    John 5:39

    39 You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, 40 yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.


    Jesus taught that the Scriptures (those then in existence) are “they which testify of Me.” The Old Testament testifies, or bears witness, of Him. The Old Testament is manifestly His “witness”.


    Matthew 24:14

    14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    Jesus explains that, "This gospel of the kingdom must be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations." The gospel is also to be preached as “a witness” – Christ’s witness. Together, the Old Testament and the New Testament are Christ's two witnesses.

    These are the two parts of the Sacred Record, both of which, says Jesus, “testify of Me.”

    John 5:31-47 - Jesus does not accept "human testimony".

    Jesus speaking ...

    31 If I testify about Myself, My testimony is not valid. 32 There is another who testifies about Me, and I know that His testimony about Me is valid.

    33 You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth (Gods word). 34 Even though I do not accept human testimony, I say these things so that you may be saved.

    Jesus has a unique perspective, the truth of His testimony does not literally depend on the input of other people (John 5:34; 8:14). However, He acknowledges the natural human need for confirmation.

    John 8:14

    13So the Pharisees said to Him, “You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not valid.”

    14 Jesus replied, “Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But you do not know where I came from or where I am going

    The two witnesses are the OT and the NT both of that testify of Jesus. His Holy Word testifies of Him and is the complete truth.

    God Bless.
     
  13. Dkh587

    Dkh587 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    True Israel are those that have faith in God(YHWH) & Jesus the Messiah, and obey the law of God. True Israel is the church of Messiah
     
  14. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Thanks brother Dkh587, nice to see you again. So true. I could not have said it any better in so few words as well. They know God's power to save them from thier sins. To be honest I did not think that there would be many people that believe the above scriptures because many argue against them and try to say God's LAW was only for ISRAEL. Which is true but that is why we have the question here in the OP WHO is God's ISRAEL. If you know who God's ISRAEL are than we are to live by EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of GOD.

    God bless
     
  15. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi brother eleos1954, good post. Seems we think the same. In the days of JESUS and the APOSTLES, their bible was the OLD TESTAMENT. Everything we have today in the NEW TESTAMENT comes from the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures. Together the NEW and the OLD Testament are the two witnesses that testify of JESUS as the CHRIST, MESSIAH and the SON OF GOD.

    Thanks for sharing the scriptures and your thoughts here brother

    God bless.
     
  16. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    1 Corinthians 10:32

    When looking at the Greek for church in this verse it uses the definition of the entire body of believers. The "called out ones".

    ekklésia: an assembly, a (religious) congregation
    Original Word: ἐκκλησία, ας, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: ekklésia
    Phonetic Spelling: (ek-klay-see'-ah)
    Definition: an assembly, a (religious) congregation
    Usage: an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers.
    HELPS Word-studies
    1577 ekklēsía(from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and 2564 /kaléō, "to call") – properly, people called out from the world and to God, the outcome being the Church (the mystical body of Christ) – i.e. the universal (total) body of believers whom God calls out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.

    The called out ones are Gods people - Israel

    God Bless.
     
  17. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely brother eleos1954, nice to see someone who studies God's WORD for themselves. This is also why God's true church (Israel who are all those who believe and follow God's WORD) is not a church organisation or denomination can be anywhere. All those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD and are living up to all the truth God has revealed to them through his Word are his people.

    This is what I believe the BOOK of REVELATION 18:1-5. That the churches will fall away from following God's WORD. God's people are in all these churches but God is a Spirit and those that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 10:16; JOHN 4:24. Before the jugments of God are poured out God will call his people out from all the churches to worship him in Spirit and in truth according to his Word before the Mark of the Beast linked is given.

    Thanks for sharing eleos1954, great post

    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
     
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