God's purpose for Job?

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

So do you think that Satan can 'demand to sift every one of us like wheat' even when there is no just cause????? Isn't that a bit like saying "God scourges every son whom he loves"....just because he likes to beat all of us kids even when we've never did anything wrong? I'm inclined to suspect that there's more than that involved here concerning Peter and Judas.

Doesn't this verse seem to say that Jesus kept them all safe, but then lost Judas on purpose so that scripture might be fulfilled.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

I'm still leaning toward sovereignty, but maybe someone has more scripture to help.

Oh, I WHOLEHEARTEDLY believe in God's absolute sovereignty!!!!! I'm not sure how you got the impression that I don't.

Don't forget, satan had to ASK GOD to sift Peter like wheat. He couldn't do it without permission. Who was it that brought Job to satan's attention? And Jesus said we will have tribulation in this world. And, yes, Hebrews 12 says that if we aren't chastised, we aren't legitimate sons. Look at what Jesus said about Saul of Tarsus (later the Apostle Paul) to Ananias: "I will show him how many things he must suffer for My Name's sake." (Acts 9:16) Both Peter and Paul talked about "sharing in His sufferings" (1 Pet 4:13-19, 1 Pet 1:6, 2 Cor 1:4-6, Philippians 3:10, Romans 8:17-18). And, when the Apostles were beaten by the Jewish leadership, the Book of Acts reports that "they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His Name. (Acts 5:41)

According to Scripture, there are people who think they haven't sinned, but there are none who truly haven't sinned. So, if our Sovereign God had to justify why we were getting chastised--which He doesn't, He would have had a legitimate reason anyway, right?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I've often thought the Book of Job is perhaps one of the most interesting books in the Bible. No it doesn't seem to deal with essential beliefs of salvation but it kind of rolls back the spirit realm and gives us a short glimpse of something that took place and how it effected a man on the earth. In kind of a way it reminds me of when Jesus said to Peter that Satan demanded to sift him as wheat. Lk 22:51 It makes one ponder how much of anything is mere coincidental of events that take place in our lives good or bad. Might the Lord tell us some day there were conversations going on about you in the spirit realm all the time? Really gives us something to think about to stay spiritually sober serving God all the time.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I am inclined to agree with much of what you said. Since God woke me up, I no longer believe in coincidences/chance happenings/accidents.

 

[RDKirk]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I am inclined to agree with much of what you said. Since God woke me up, I no longer believe in coincidences/chance happenings/accidents.

Well, yes, there are still accidents. See Luke 13 and Matthew 5. Part of the result of the Fall is that nature is largely undirected (which was supposed to have been Adam's job) and "stuff happens."

 

[salt-n-light]

What do you think God's reason(s) for sharing the Book of Job were?

To me, it gave insight of the different dynamics that are at hand as a living soul and how it’s points to the glory of God. It’s magnify through the event of what happens when you are stripped from functioning well on Earth, which is the expectation when living on this Earth, that our vessels work.Who is God then, and what would be the point of me?It speaks of that question.

All of us have family, friends, those that have greater and lesser influence,our own mind, then God and Satan, and Job touches upon all of it in great focus. It’s strips off everything that is in relation to our vessel.

To me conclusively, it shows us that we are also a spirit brought about from God, and in that God shows His Glory.

Could be wrong but don’t beat me up lol

 

[Hillsage]

Oh, I WHOLEHEARTEDLY believe in God's absolute sovereignty!!!!! I'm not sure how you got the impression that I don't.

I thought for sure that's what you were saying. So when I ended my post with sovereignty, it was in agreement with where I thought you were coming from.

Don't forget, satan had to ASK GOD to sift Peter like wheat. He couldn't do it without permission.

But it was a bit more 'forceful' than an "ASK". As I underlined in the verse, Satan "demanded" Peter. It's as though he knew this was a sin he had authority to deal with. Whereas the beating which Job received, in no way seems appropriate for a man who was considered "blameless and upright" by God Himself. But if God's goal for us is truly to grow into "the image of the stature of the fullness of Christ."...then we too will have to suffer to become perfect even as Jesus suffered to become the perfect sacrifice.

HEB 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

I don't think that 'the cross' was all the suffering Jesus went through in his life. I believe that sweating blood, which is a definable medical condition was also a 'suffering unto perfection' which ultimately qualified him to be the 'perfect' sacrifice for the cross....as well as the 'sinless' sacrifice. A qualification which he had since the day of His birth.

Who was it that brought Job to satan's attention? And Jesus said we will have tribulation in this world. And, yes, Hebrews 12 says that if we aren't chastised, we aren't legitimate sons. Look at what Jesus said about Saul of Tarsus (later the Apostle Paul) to Ananias: "I will show him how many things he must suffer for My Name's sake." (Acts 9:16) Both Peter and Paul talked about "sharing in His sufferings" (1 Pet 4:13-19, 1 Pet 1:6, 2 Cor 1:4-6, Philippians 3:10, Romans 8:17-18). And, when the Apostles were beaten by the Jewish leadership, the Book of Acts reports that "they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His Name. (Acts 5:41)

So, are you saying you think that the "chastizements" are the 'sufferings' God was showing Saul/Paul? I've always kind of thought that He was showing him the things that he would suffer in his fight against the kingdom of Satan? A fight which pitted him against all those who persecute Christians and Christianity because they are marching to the drum of our Adversary? I always kind of thought that "chastisements for sons he loves" have to be corrective judgments of discipline for shortcomings in our walk. But maybe, even those 'judgments of discipline' are administered through the devil???? I don't know.

According to Scripture, there are people who think they haven't sinned, but there are none who truly haven't sinned. So, if our Sovereign God had to justify why we were getting chastised--which He doesn't, He would have had a legitimate reason anyway, right?

A point which I think I'm ending my last comment with. I guess I'm still trying to figure out the physical 'family dynamic' here and correlating to the spiritual 'family dynamic'. Getting disciplined from mom and dad is different than them giving the baby sitter the authority to swat. Lots of mind candy in this topic, and something for me to think more about, hopefully with input from the Spirit of truth.

 

[Cis.jd]

What do you think God's reason(s) for sharing the Book of Job were?

I believe it is him sharing life advice. He knew that there are things in this world that can be very emotionally overwhelming and hope/faith is the only form of strength that a person can get to help him/her during the most darkest of times. I believe this book is a message from God for those who do enter something that they are in need of something relative to what they are facing, that is why he made the book of Job. Whether or not the actual story in the book really happened isn't important, it's the fact that it CAN happen to people and either bits of pieces or everything have happened to someone with in these millions of years that we've existed. This book is him speaking to that audience - to those people who are at the worst in life and just need someone to relate to them so that they can see that they can make it and that Holy Spirit is there. This is what Job is about and why he made this book.

 

[Colin Bwogi]

Whereas the beating which Job received, in no way seems appropriate for a man who was considered "blameless and upright" by God Himself.

Yes it was said of Job to be righteous and perfect, but again there was a problem with Job, with which I believe was the reason; if not the main reason as to why he went through those troubles.

Job 3:25)This scripture reveals a fear in Job which had him to sacrifice unto God for the sake of His children. He didn't do this to honor God, but rather he did it in the fear of Evil.

I believe that in doing this he gave away the fear of God unto the fear of loss.

We know that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom, but how about the fear of Evil?
If the fear of the Lord draws all kinds of blessings towards you, how about the fear of Evil, won't it draw all kinds of curses towards you.

I also know that fear is a form of worship, that can be either positive(towards God in the fear of the Lord), or negative(towards Sin & Evil).
I also know that if we take our negative fears unto the fear of the Lord, the fear of the Lord can surpass them and cast them out, which was not the same in Job's case: for he took his fears unto the Lord not in the Faith that they had no power over him, but in the Faith that he feared them greatly and that maybe his children would be the cause, and so he sacrificed in this fear.

I believe that what he went through was a process of correction that he might overcome the fear of Evil, so that at the end he might be perfected.

Job was perfect, but He wasn't perfect in fear, I believe that God perfected him the more when He took him through it, so that at the end he might be much more greater than before.

God bless you all.

 

[Hillsage]

Yes it was said of Job to be righteous and perfect, but again there was a problem with Job, with which I believe was the reason; if not the main reason as to why he went through those troubles.

Brother Colin....from Uganda. I know this may be side note, but we had a fellow Ugandian come to America and spend a week in our home 15 years ago. He told us God sent him here for two reasons. One was to get money because, as he said; "You are a very rich country and we are a very poor country." But the second reason God sent him here was because we are also a spiritually ignorant church in America. and again I say
He said; "In my country we know who the witch doctor is because he 'basically' has a sign on the hut, but your witch doctors wear three piece suits and you don't have a clue." He was truly a spiritual eye opener for me as I took him to different places every night to speak, and then spent lots of one on one time also. He was training Ugandians to be ministers of the gospel and needed money to build a dormitory. I told this long story to ask this short question; Any chance you might know him? His name was Sam Owusu?

Job 3:25)This scripture reveals a fear in Job which had him to sacrifice unto God for the sake of His children. He didn't do this to honor God, but rather he did it in the fear of Evil.

Yes, I've heard the 'fear' teaching before. But I've also heard it 'self righteousness'? Was Job 'doing more' than God requires (empty sacrifices) in an attempt buy protection for his kids at Job's monetary expense, and he was very rich?

JOB 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

I believe that in doing this he gave away the fear of God unto the fear of loss.

I'm agreeing.

We know that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom, but how about the fear of Evil?
If the fear of the Lord draws all kinds of blessings towards you, how about the fear of Evil, won't it draw all kinds of curses towards you.

We always say that 'Faith is what moves God to move in our life' and 'Fear is what moves the Devil in our life.

I also know that if we take our negative fears unto the fear of the Lord, the fear of the Lord can surpass them and cast them out, which was not the same in Job's case: for he took his fears unto the Lord not in the Faith that they had no power over him, but in the Faith that he feared them greatly and that maybe his children would be the cause, and so he sacrificed in this fear.

1JO 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.

I believe that what he went through was a process of correction that he might overcome the fear of Evil, so that at the end he might be perfected.

Job was perfect, but He wasn't perfect in fear, I believe that God perfected him the more when He took him through it, so that at the end he might be much more greater than before.

God bless you all.

I struggle a bit with the KJV which says Job was 'perfect'. Below is the Strong's definition of that Hebrew word. And that definition seems to better fit what you just said, and which I agree with; the judgments of God are always for the breaking of rebellion...and not just Him beating up people because He's right as well as tougher than anyone else.

8535 tam
complete; usually (mor.) pious; spec. gentle, dear

 

[Colin Bwogi]

I

Any chance you might know him? His name was Sam Owusu?

I do not know about him sir, but am gonna look into it(to the best that I can).

Yes, I've heard the 'fear' teaching before. But I've also heard it 'self righteousness'?

Am sorry, but this sounds to me like gossip, (You heard, you've heard...., who are these from whom you hear these teachings? It don't sound Spiritual to me), don't you have Faith in the Word of God? I suggest we reason and share in the context of the Word, not in "I'VE HEARD...", for scripture is given for such purposes also (2Timothy 3:16).

Was Job 'doing more' than God requires (empty sacrifices) in an attempt buy protection for his kids at Job's monetary expense, and he was very rich?

(Job 1:5) notice he made these sacrifices saying "It MAY BE that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts", and notice again "thus did Job continually". We can clearly see that he didn't do this in Faith, but in doubt, for he that applies Faith does not consider probability(chances) saying "MAY BE". Therefore, as pertaining to the Law of the Spirit, you cannot say that he was protecting his kids, in doubt. And again I don't agree that he was doing more than what God requires, but rather, he was doing that which God doesn't require of us all(Doubt).

 

[Hillsage]

I do not know about him sir, but am gonna look into it(to the best that I can).

Actually I did a search for him on Google after I posted you. I then sent an email to a Sam Osusu from Uganda who is now in Canada, to see if he is the same one who came to our house.

Am sorry, but this sounds to me like gossip, (You heard, you've heard...., who are these from whom you hear these teachings? It don't sound Spiritual to me), don't you have Faith in the Word of God? I suggest we reason and share in the context of the Word, not in "I'VE HEARD...", for scripture is given for such purposes also (2Timothy 3:16).

No, it wasn't 'gossip' I shared, it was teaching based on 'bible', and I quoted you the verse saying; "he was righteous in his own eyes." A point which you have not addressed.

As for asking me if I have faith in the Word of God...the answer is YES...NO. If by "Word of God" you mean the Word which became flesh of Jesus and dwelt among us, (John 1:14) then my answer is definitely YES! If you mean do I have faith in the bible...the answer is NO. My faith is in the living 'God of the word' and not the 'word of God/bible'. Having said that, of course I believe that the Holy Spirit can quicken a 'written word' from the bible to become a spoken, or living word/rhema in my life, and 'such' is truly the desire of my heart.

(Job 1:5) notice he made these sacrifices saying "It MAY BE that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts",

That "MAY BE" which you capitalized for emphasis, is what makes me think, his sacrifices were empty. Job didn't even have any 'known sins' to justify his burnt offerings. But I do think Job still believed, or had faith, in his sacrifices. If he did not then why would he have ever offered them? I do think it was just more of an 'assumed faith'...or 'presumption' for him in reality. But maybe there is a depth of understanding which I/we have not yet plumbed too.

and notice again "thus did Job continually". We can clearly see that he didn't do this in Faith, but in doubt, for he that applies Faith does not consider probability(chances) saying "MAY BE". Therefore, as pertaining to the Law of the Spirit, you cannot say that he was protecting his kids, in doubt. And again I don't agree that he was doing more than what God requires, but rather, he was doing that which God doesn't require of us all(Doubt).

as to your saying you still don't agree that he was doing more than what God requires, please look at 'your quote' of bible words, which I 'bolded' above. That is why I still think Job was 'continually' doing more than God requires.

 

[Colin Bwogi]

JOB 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Of course he had to be righteous in his own eyes, because that's just what was required of them of the old covenant, so that they might be testimony of the fault in the law of the flesh unto us.
Hebrews 10:1-10)

And with this in mind, I don't think that fear generates self righteousness. For he that fears doesn't consider himself above that which he fears, but rather surrenders.

I stand to be corrected if am wrong.

Otherwise, it's been a pleasure sharing with you my brother. I pray that it all amounts unto His Glory.

God bless you

 

[Hillsage]

Of course he had to be righteous in his own eyes, because that's just what was required of them of the old covenant, so that they might be testimony of the fault in the law of the flesh unto us.
Hebrews 10:1-10)

You bring up a very good and interesting point. But your scriptural support for that 'point' bothers me a little bit. The book of Job is considered to have been written before any other book of the OT. Your quote of Hebrews 10 is in reference to 'the law' as given by Moses. Does anyone know what the 'law' was before though? That is the question I'm wondering about.

And with this in mind, I don't think that fear generates self righteousness. For he that fears doesn't consider himself above that which he fears, but rather surrenders.

I agree. But I am not going to say that Job only had a FEAR problem or a SELF RIGHTEOUS problem. He may have had both, I don't know.

I stand to be corrected if am wrong.

As do I.

Otherwise, it's been a pleasure sharing with you my brother. I pray that it all amounts unto His Glory.

God bless you

It will all amount to His glory as long as we remain as "iron sharpening iron". But when the 'sparks' fly then one, or both of us, just may have an attitude/angle problem IMO.

 

[Colin Bwogi]

I knew

You bring up a very good and interesting point. But your scriptural support for that 'point' bothers me a little bit. The book of Job is considered to have been written before any other book of the OT. Your quote of Hebrews 10 is in reference to 'the law' as given by Moses. Does anyone know what the 'law' was before though? That is the question I'm wondering about.

I knew that you would bring this up.

Well you should know that Adam was created for this very purpose, even as the scriptures say the first man was created a living soul, but the second a quickening spirit (1Corinthians 15:45-50).

He was created freshly, given unto the flesh for the purpose explained in self righteousness. For his fall was not a surprise unto God: He foreknew it all. That's why it was certain even before the law. And that's why the law also was referred to Adam or to Genesis concerning the Sabbath's Rest(Exodus 20:11).

 

[Colin Bwogi]

I knew


I knew that you would bring this up.

Well you should know that Adam was created for this very purpose, even as the scriptures say the first man was created a living soul, but the second a quickening spirit (1Corinthians 15:45-50).

He was created freshly, given unto the flesh for the purpose explained in self righteousness. For his fall was not a surprise unto God: He foreknew it all. That's why it was certain even before the law. And that's why the law also was referred to Adam or to Genesis concerning the Sabbath's Rest(Exodus 20:11).

Don't you know that the law was given to reveal that which was already there in Adam, even the sin(wherein he was cursed): read Romans 7.

The law came to remind us that we are already sinners through the curse of Adam: so that that Sin might appear or be clearly seen right before us. For we were born therein. We considered our performances unto righteousness long before the law.

 

[Hillsage]

Colin, I don't really know what to say, except I don't see this as you are seeing it. And as far as I'm concerned I think we've both drifted from the intent of the Opening Post. It may just be time for us to move on and give thanks for what we've shared.

I know you are very new here and I pray your stay is profitable for you as well as those you encounter. Even though I can't say that's always been the case for me, that's for sure.

One for Him and Him for ALL,

 

[Colin Bwogi]

Thanks, been a pleasure once again, and God bless you.

 

[~Zao~]

Thanks, been a pleasure once again, and God bless you.

God bless you too brother

 

[RDKirk]

Yes, I've heard the 'fear' teaching before. But I've also heard it 'self righteousness'? Was Job 'doing more' than God requires (empty sacrifices) in an attempt buy protection for his kids at Job's monetary expense, and he was very rich?

I suspect Job was sacrificing in ignorant worship, as Paul asserted the Athenians worshiping the "Unknown God" were doing. As Paul stated, they were worshiping the correct God, but they didn't know how to worship Him. Neither Job nor the Athenians had had any divine direction.

Nor had there been any specific instruction on when and how to give sacrifices that we see in scripture given to anyone until it was given to Moses. We see them essentially erecting altars whenever and wherever it seemed to them that they needed to make a sacrifice to God.

So there isn't any blame to make upon Job's sacrifices--nor does scripture lay any blame upon him. Where did God say, "You're doing it wrong?"

 

[~Zao~]

We see them essentially erecting altars whenever and wherever it seemed to them that they needed to make a sacrifice to God.

It's not so much a sacrifice
to Baal or Mammon. Essentially it's a sacrifice to Molech. Altho all of those God's can be seen reflected in their friends. Taking Job as a reflection of the spirituality of the world today I would say that Molech has the lead. So how can that be good for the children?

 

[Hillsage]

Where did God say, "You're doing it wrong?"

That's kind of the problem with the book of Job. God didn't say what he was doing wrong. But He didn't just sic Satan on Job for the pleasure of watching him kill all his kids and torture Job either IMO. So that leaves us with various opinions I suppose.