God's Plan for Humanity

[Jon Goode]

Hello guys!

A few months ago I posted this thread called God's Plan for Humanity.
Here's the original post:

Yesterday I was having a discussion with a christian friend about god's plan for humanity. Basically, my friend said that god didn't have a premeditated plan for us, since he gave us the right to free will. He also said that God didn't intend for the world to have developed into what it is today, but that by sinning, people pulled away from God's plan.

My reasoning was that if God knows everything, then he must have known that people would eventually be corrupted by sin and pull away from God's original plan even before he created us.
I couldn't let this thought out of my mind for the whole day and because I started reasoning further. If God knew that mankind would be corrupted by sin, and that the world would turn into what it is today, then I can only assume that this is actually God's plan for mankind.
I realized that this was a crazy thought, since God couldn't possibly plan for the world to corrupted the way it is right now.
But then I thought: What if God intended the world to become this corrupted, because he has an ultimate and majestic plan for the end of times that could only be that glorious because the world is this corrupted?

I still struggle with this and though I know I'll never get a definite answer until I die, I would still like to know what you make of it.

 

[RascaLinFaith]

When we choose something, there is a concursus taking place, in that God has ordained and caused that choice, but we also really and responsibly choose. God causes first, but is not responsible for what we choose. Then, concurrent to God’s cause, we choose and are, thus, secondary causes. But how can there be a first and second cause involved in my choice, and only the second one be responsible for it? Herein lies the mystery.

 

[RascaLinFaith]

“They say of some temporal suffering, 'No future bliss can make up for it,' not knowing that Heaven, once attained, will work backwards and turn even that agony into a glory. And of some sinful pleasure they say “Let me have but this and I’ll take the consequences”: little dreaming how damnation will spread back and back into their past and contaminate the pleasure of the sin. Both processes begin even before death. The good man’s past begins to change so that his forgiven sins and remembered sorrows take on the quality of Heaven: the bad man’s past already conforms to his badness and is filled only with dreariness. And that is why, at the end of all things, when the sun rises here and the twilight turns to blackness down there, the Blessed will say 'We have never lived anywhere except in Heaven,' and the Lost, 'We were always in Hell.' And both will speak truly."

C.S. Lewis, “The Great Divorce,” in The Complete C.S. Lewis Signature Classics (New York, NY: HarperOne, 2002), 503.

 

[Jon Goode]

“They say of some temporal suffering, 'No future bliss can make up for it,' not knowing that Heaven, once attained, will backwards and turn even that agony into a glory. And of some sinful pleasure they say “Let me have but this and I’ll take the consequences”: little dreaming how damnation will spread back and back into their past and contaminate the pleasure of the sin. Both processes begin even before death. The good man’s past begins to change so that his forgiven sins and remembered sorrows take on the quality of Heaven: the bad man’s past already conforms to his badness and is filled only with dreariness. And that is why, at the end of all things, when the sun rises here and the twilight tunes to blackness down there, the Blessed will say 'We have never lived anywhere except in Heaven,' and the Lost, 'We were always in Hell.' And both will speak truly."

C.S. Lewis, “The Great Divorce,” in The Complete C.S. Lewis Signature Classics (New York, NY: HarperOne, 2002), 503.

Man, I don't know how to feel about this, but the way he writes though...

 

[CrystalDragon]

When we choose something, there is a concursus taking place, in that God has ordained and caused that choice, but we also really and responsibly choose. God causes first, but is not responsible for what we choose. Then, concurrent to God’s cause, we choose and are, thus, secondary causes. But how can there be a first and second cause involved in my choice, and only the second one be responsible for it? Herein lies the mystery.

Food for thought: in the Old Testament God was responsible for absolutely everything, including good and bad, peace and calamity, even the roll of a die.

I think that we just tell ourselves we have free will because we don't like to consider the alternative. Some may say "God doesn't want robots", but that's inaccurate—we are the ones who don't want to be considered as robots. Since God has determined everything since before the creation of the world, he knew we would "fall". He knew and determined everything that would happen. We only tell ourselves we have free will because the alternative is too uncomfortable to really think about.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

 

[Jon Goode]

Food for thought: in the Old Testament God was responsible for absolutely everything, including good and bad, peace and calamity, even the roll of a die.

I think that we just tell ourselves we have free will because we don't like to consider the alternative. Some may say "God doesn't want robots", but that's inaccurate—we are the ones who don't want to be considered as robots. Since God has determined everything since before the creation of the world, he knew we would "fall". He knew and determined everything that would happen. We only tell ourselves we have free will because the alternative is too uncomfortable to really think about.

When we choose something, there is a concursus taking place, in that God has ordained and caused that choice, but we also really and responsibly choose. God causes first, but is not responsible for what we choose. Then, concurrent to God’s cause, we choose and are, thus, secondary causes. But how can there be a first and second cause involved in my choice, and only the second one be responsible for it? Herein lies the mystery.

I have absolutely no difficulty accepting that we have free will even though God has planned and therefore knows everything we do in advance. I fail to see why there is a conflict in the first place.

I see it this way:
God doesn't order us to do anything, he always gives us a choice. The fact that he knows and planned for every choice you make doesn't erase the fact that you have the right to choose. It simply means that whatever choice you make will be what God had planned in the first place. So whatever choice you make, be it good or bad, it can't escape God's plan. But it is still a choice.
If you choose to kill someone, then that is not what God wanted you to do, but it is still what he planned for you to do, and you chose to do it by your own free will.

When we choose something, there is a concursus taking place, in that God has ordained and caused that choice, but we also really and responsibly choose. God causes first, but is not responsible for what we choose. Then, concurrent to God’s cause, we choose and are, thus, secondary causes. But how can there be a first and second cause involved in my choice, and only the second one be responsible for it? Herein lies the mystery.

I don't believe that we are robots. If God wanted robots, then he could have made robots that did everything according to his will, which clearly isn't the case, unless you're willing to say that God wants evil to exist. Rather, I think that evil is a necessity for his greater plan. God could have created beings that followed his every will, but would that mean that those beings really loved him? No, it would mean that they simply didn't have a choice but to follow his will. Instead he chose to make beings that he knew would be corrupted. What does that tell you? What it tells me is that we need to know evil and we need to have lived in evil long enough and to have made the wrong choice repeatedly long enough to be able to love God for what he is. Love

Also, if we do not have free will, then the only purpose of creation is the ultimate glorification of God.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I have absolutely no difficulty accepting that we have free will even though God has planned and therefore knows everything we do in advance. I fail to see why there is a conflict in the first place.

I see it this way:
God doesn't order us to do anything, he always gives us a choice. The fact that he knows and planned for every choice you make doesn't erase the fact that you have the right to choose. It simply means that whatever choice you make will be what God had planned in the first place. So whatever choice you make, be it good or bad, it can't escape God's plan. But it is still a choice.
If you choose to kill someone, then that is not what God wanted you to do, but it is still what he planned for you to do, and you chose to do it by your own free will.



I don't believe that we are robots. If God wanted robots, then he could have made robots that did everything according to his will, which clearly isn't the case, unless you're willing to say that God wants evil to exist. Rather, I think that evil is a necessity for his greater plan. God could have created beings that followed his every will, but would that mean that those beings really loved him? No, it would mean that they simply didn't have a choice but to follow his will. Instead he chose to make beings that he knew would be corrupted. What does that tell you? What it tells me is that we need to know evil and we need to have lived in evil long enough and to have made the wrong choice repeatedly long enough to be able to love God for what he is. Love

Also, if we do not have free will, then the only purpose of creation is the ultimate glorification of God.

This changes how I was about to reply.
Given the acceptance of Free Will, then we cannot talk about the way things are now and look at God to ask if this was His Plan. IOW He did not make a corrupted world full of sorrow and pain for us to live in - we did (collectively (angels and men) and even individually now).

What we see now is the result of many other persons plans/wills, both angels and humans, that have corrupted His Creation and only temporarily (from His View) allowed as a rebellion of creatures He gave free wills. We can talk about His Purpose for both making us (with free will), allowing suffering and this world as it is in ways that should not trouble anyone. Also talk about His Omniscience, Power, Just, Wrath and Glory as CS Lewis so eloquently summarized at the close of the quoted passage above:

"
And that is why, at the end of all things, when the sun rises here and the twilight turns to blackness down there, the Blessed will say 'We have never lived anywhere except in Heaven,' and the Lost, 'We were always in Hell.' And both will speak truly."
C.S. Lewis, “The Great Divorce,” in The Complete C.S. Lewis Signature Classics (New York, NY: HarperOne, 2002), 503.​

and realize regardless of what His Created creatures have done, are doing or will do; He can and will in the end restore everything to how it should be - how He made it to be and that too for His Glory.

 

[Jon Goode]

This changes how I was about to reply.
Given the acceptance of Free Will, then we cannot talk about the way things are now and look at God to ask if this was His Plan. IOW He did not make a corrupted world full of sorrow and pain for us to live in - we did (collectively (angels and men) and even individually now).

What we see now is the result of many other persons plans/wills, both angels and humans, that have corrupted His Creation and only temporarily (from His View) allowed as a rebellion of creatures He gave free wills. We can talk about His Purpose for both making us (with free will), allowing suffering and this world as it is in ways that should not trouble anyone. Also talk about His Omniscience, Power, Just, Wrath and Glory as CS Lewis so eloquently summarized at the close of the quoted passage above:
"
And that is why, at the end of all things, when the sun rises here and the twilight turns to blackness down there, the Blessed will say 'We have never lived anywhere except in Heaven,' and the Lost, 'We were always in Hell.' And both will speak truly."
C.S. Lewis, “The Great Divorce,” in The Complete C.S. Lewis Signature Classics (New York, NY: HarperOne, 2002), 503.
and realize regardless of what His Created creatures have done, are doing or will do; He can and will in the end restore everything to how it should be - how He made it to be and that too for His Glory.

Still, what I'm saying is that even though we have free will, that doesn't change the fact that this was all planned by God.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Still, what I'm saying is that even though we have free will, that doesn't change the fact that this was all planned by God.

Well, yes but maybe that depends on one's view of God (not yours maybe but of some others). I think it changes many facts a great deal. Especially how we view the world today, the world He originally created before we helped corrupt it and the world He will restore from that corruption that greets us in the next life. Am distinguishing between things that He temporarily allows (in rebellion of His Will) as not being anything more than Him allowing free will creatures He created to do as they will for a time, and eternally speaking only a very brief time.
So am saying He does not cause sorrow and suffering, He allows it.
Was it His Will to have creation this way? I say not in sense that He made it this way. For free will creatures this has to be the best of all possible worlds He could have put us in, because it is the world a Perfect Creator made for us.

This may not be your intent, but God "planning" in discussing our corruption of His Work to me is suggesting intending (His Will) for us was/is to rebel against Him, and that rather suggests making us rebel. I cannot see a God Who is Good doing that.

 

[Jon Goode]

Well, yes but maybe that depends on one's view of God (not yours maybe but of some others). I think it changes many facts a great deal. Especially how we view the world today, the world He originally created before we helped corrupt it and the world He will restore from that corruption that greets us in the next life. Am distinguishing between things that He temporarily allows (in rebellion of His Will) as not being anything more than Him allowing free will creatures He created to do as they will for a time, and eternally speaking only a very brief time.
So am saying He does not cause sorrow and suffering, He allows it.
Was it His Will to have creation this way? I say not in sense that He made it this way. For free will creatures this has to be the best of all possible worlds He could have put us in, because it is the world a Perfect Creator made for us.

This may not be your intent, but God "planning" in discussing our corruption of His Work to me is suggesting intending (His Will) for us was/is to rebel against Him, and that rather suggests making us rebel. I cannot see a God Who is Good doing that.

Well, the purpose of this thread is to establish that the world is how it is, because God planned for it to be this way. In my opinion, there is no other possibility. As I wrote in the original thread, if God knew that we would be corrupted, then why create us at all? He couldn't possibly, out of love, create beings he knew would rebel against him and finally end up in eternal suffering. Is it possible that he created humankind only for the few (or many, it doesn't matter) who would get to spend eternity with him in heaven? But then what about the others? Why create those who he already knew would turn away from him? That doesn't make any sense.

Now it's time for the stupid analogy of the day (bear with me)
If a man gave his son a car, and he could see the future so that he knew with absolute certainty that his son would drive that car into wall and die in complete agony, but still he would give his son the car. Would you say that he really loved his son?
It's the same reasoning. If God knew that humankind would end up in hell (even though it was by our own doing), then he couldn't possibly have created us out of love. What this leads me to believe is that there must be a purpose for humankind to have rebelled against God. And that God planned for it, because he knew that ultimately all the evil and all the suffering would lead to something with God-proportional beauty. This doesn't mean that God created evil or that he wanted evil to exist. It means that he saw that along with his creation would come great pain, but he still chose to create us, because he loved us so much that he just couldn't have not created us.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Well, the purpose of this thread is to establish that the world is how it is, because God planned for it to be this way. In my opinion, there is no other possibility. As I wrote in the original thread, if God knew that we would be corrupted, then why create us at all? He couldn't possibly, out of love, create beings he knew would rebel against him and finally end up in eternal suffering. Is it possible that he created humankind only for the few (or many, it doesn't matter) who would get to spend eternity with him in heaven? But then what about the others? Why create those who he already knew would turn away from him? That doesn't make any sense.

Now it's time for the stupid analogy of the day (bear with me)
If a man gave his son a car, and he could see the future so that he knew with absolute certainty that his son would drive that car into wall and die in complete agony, but still he would give his son the car. Would you say that he really loved his son?
It's the same reasoning. If God knew that humankind would end up in hell (even though it was by our own doing), then he couldn't possibly have created us out of love. What this leads me to believe is that there must be a purpose for humankind to have rebelled against God. And that God planned for it, because he knew that ultimately all the evil and all the suffering would lead to something with God-proportional beauty. This doesn't mean that God created evil or that he wanted evil to exist. It means that he saw that along with his creation would come great pain, but he still chose to create us, because he loved us so much that he just couldn't have not created us.

EOs have the clearest thoughts about what is proper to say about God and what is not. Declaring what He can and cannot do is not a part of those thoughts. I try to remember them correcting me on this point.

When people rebel, they essentially make war with whatever authority is being rebelled against. After rebellion there are two ways to rectify the situation to restore "peace"with that authority(assuming the authority retains in control). Surrendering one's will to that authority or having that authority conquer the rebellious forcing them to submit (gnashing of teeth). Both types of peace leave the free will intact. However the peace of one is that of submission/surrender of one's will to a higher authority which brings that free will into alignment with the wll of authority. The other type peace leaves the free will at odds with the will of authority. The "bowing" of their will for them is forced, they have no choice. Either way peace and order are restored.

Knowing we, (should say most of us as there appears to have been exceptions along with most of the angels), would rebel beyond the point of saving we could say God also, out of Love and having made us to share in His Eternal Happiness, knew He would have to address that rebellion before He made the first human. If He did not address the rebellion, then there would be no peace or order in Creation made by the Lord of Peace and Order. Remember though not all the angels fell and some men He was able to "account it to them for righteousness" for at a least both a temporal relief of pain and suffering (death) and a temporary eternal relief from the consequence of rebellion of His Authority. So we could say it is not like He had to do anything to save anyone. Doing nothing more than creating us there would still be those He created with free will that would choose not to rebel against Him just as most of the angels did not rebel. I do agree His choice to do what He knew He would do before He made us is a pure act of Love, but I cannot say He 'needed' to demonstrate what He is (Love). God needs nothing and lacks nothing.

So in the end (as CS Lewis put it) He makes it possible His Peace and Order to be restored, for the benefit of those who never rebel and those that do but then surrender to Him, and also to the Just rewards of those who remain in rebellion to end of this life. I prefer to optimistically hope God takes the lion share of mankind in the end rather than leave that to Satan. If we wish to call that God's "plan" for our reconciliation, guess am fine with that He knew what He was going to do before He made Adam and Eve or even the angels. So it is not a plan He had to come up with on the fly when Satan and then Adam with Satan's help rebelled. He knew that would come and He knew all along what He would do about it. (and as Creator He could have done nothing about it or started over - the later the Bible suggests as much being His perogative with Him still being Loving and Just). That is all I meant by not a plan in the human sense of a plan - as in make a way out something - which in human terms may or may not work as "planned".

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Now it's time for the stupid analogy of the day (bear with me) .

Not stupid at all for a human father to act to prevent a child's death. Think it becomes a poor analogy to apply such thoughts to God's Love and the reason He made us (which was not to fill a need for our love or someone's love - He eternally has Perfect Love already).

For Divine Father it is more than thinking about Him Loving children that He gave free will to love Him or not. Giving them that freedom, He must allow some of His creation to be lost to Him as not willingly returning His Love for them.

Being not just Love, but also Just with the Righteous Wrath that goes with it, He must put an end to His children's rebellion and also restore the damage that rebellion has caused. He has temporarily withheld His Wrath and revealing His Full Glory which will instantly end what is the single cause of the harm to Peace and Order He gave a Perfect Creation - that rebellion - and restore the current imbalance in Justice from resulting from it. All to His Glory.
All of that story hinges on the idea that He has made creatures that are truly free to rebel. The granting of free will implies the ability of using it for self interest that conflicts with His Will. If He creates only creatures that lack that ability, then their will is certainly less free than our own, meaning not truly or completely free. Note again, that even in our fallen nature, some of these free will humans have still freely aligned themselves with Him. CS Lewis in Mere Christainity, also made the comment:

""Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having."​

And that would be the sort of love God would consider worth having when He made creatures to share in His Eternal Happiness. (Why He made us) A happiness which because of Whom He is, is impossible for a free will creature like us to share in without freely serving, knowing and living Good (God). That last part of that last sentence is one description of our purpose for existing = to love, serve and know God(Good).