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GOD'S PEOPLE ARE TO BE A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveGodsWord, Jul 8, 2021.

  1. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Nope see post # 173 linked. You did not read it did you. Context determines word meanings and application. Word meaning without context to how it is used within and outside of the scripture does not really tell us much. The correct translation is sabbaths (plural application because the Greek is what we call genitive neuter plural application). Some translations use sabbaths some use sabbath [days] which has the same meaning in the English.

    The context of Colossians 2:16 is to the meat and drink offerings, the new moons and the sabbaths (plural) in the Feast days. Colossians 2:17 says these are all shadows of things to come. The scripture is not talking about Gods' Sabbath or "the" Sabbath (definite article) of the 10 commandments outside of the Feast days.

    Colossians 2:16 is a reference to the many annual ceremonial sabbaths connected to the meat and drink offerings in the Feast days and days of holy convocation where no work was allowed which is one of the meaning of sabbaton in the Greek σάββατον which has many meaning depending on scripture application and can mean; "the Sabbath" (i.e. Shabbath), or a day of weekly repose from secular avocations or the interval between two Sabbaths (week); likewise the plural in all the above applications. (Hebrew and Greek Dictionary with Strongs - G4521).

    As posted earlier Paul is quoting from Ezekiel 45:17 and the application here is to all the days of holy convocation and the annual ceremonial sabbaths in the Feast days that were shadows of things to come **Leviticus 23:3 (2) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8 (3) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25 (4) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32 (4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36 (5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39 (5) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work (sabbaton Colossians 2:16 *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36). These are the plural application to sabbaths in the Feast days.

    Take Care.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2021
  2. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Now you're being funny. You well know the Colossians 2:16 verse that the word "days" is NOT... in the Greek which the translators used. That is why Dr. Strong did not assign a number to it. The word for "sabbath" there is the sole Greek word 'sabbaton' put for the Old Testament Hebrew word 'shabbath', which means the Sabbath day, singular! And Dr. James Strong pointed that fact out specifically in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance!

    Thus I have caught... your false agenda here to try and change that New Testament Scripture!
     
  3. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry dear friend but I respectfully disagree with your teachings but allow me to explain why from the scriptures if it might be helpful to the discussion. It seems you either did not read or understand the post or the scriptures provided in post # 173 linked and post # 281 linked that disagrees with your teachings. Please take your time and re-read what has been shared with you. I never said that the word [days] is in the original Greek that some English translations use for translating σάββατον sabbaton to "sabbath [days]". I said some English translations, translate sabbaton as "sabbaths" and others add the word [days] to "sabbath [days]" because the sabbath is a day and it is plural application in the Greek to the annual festivals.

    As already posted in the linked posts above some translations of Colossians 2:16 use the supplied word [days] and others simple say "sabbaths" (plural). This is because in the Greek it is genitive neuter plural application of sabbaton which means plural application of σάββατον sabbaton [GNP] in the Greek. This is why some translations add the word [days] because application and context is to [days] which is plural application of sabbaths. It has the same meaning in English as other translations which use "sabbaths" so adding the word [days] is justified and has the same meaning as "sabbaths" in the original Greek as the application to sabbaths in the annual festivals is to [days] which has the same meaning.

    Perhaps the following would be helpful..

    Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G4521
    σάββατον (sábbaton | sab'-bat-on)
    Derivation: of Hebrew origin (H7676);
    Strong's: the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension, a se'nnight, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths (week); likewise the plural in all the above applications

    Greek Lexicon Of The New Testament, Abbott-Smith - G4521
    † σάββατον, - ου, τό
    (Aram. שַׁבָּתָא, transliterated σάββατα, and this being mistaken for a pl., the sing. σάββατον was formed from it), and σάββατα, - ων, τά,
    [in LXX for H7676, H7677;]
    1. the seventh day of the week, the sabbath;
    (a) the sing. form - ον, τὸ σ .: Matt 12:8, Mark 2:27, Luke 6:5, al.; ἡ ἡμέρα τ o ῦ σ . (in LXX, Exod 20:8, al., usually τῶν σ ., v. infr.), Luke 13:16; 14:5; ὁδὸς σαββάτου, Acts 1:12 (cf. Matt 24:29); dat., of time ( τῷ) σ ., Luke 6:9; 14:1; ἐν ( τῷ) σ ., Matt 12:2, Luke 6:7, John 5:16, al.; acc, of duration, τὸ σ ., Luke 23:56; κατὰ πᾶν σ ., Acts 13:27; 15:21; 18:4; pl., σ . τρία, 17:2 R, txt. (but v. infr.);
    (b) as most freq. in LXX (v. Swete, Mk., 17; Thackeray, Gr., 35) the plural form, τὰ σ . (v. supr. on the Aram. form. There is also an analogy in the names of other festivals, τ . ἐγκαίνια, ἄζυμα, etc.): Matt 28:1, Col 2:16; ἡ ἡμέρα τῶν σ . (Exod 20:8, al.), Luke 4:16, Acts 13:14; 16:13; dat. pl. (in LXX - τοις, but 1Ma 2:38 as in NT) by metaplasmus (El., § 9, 3), σάββασι, Matt 12:1; 5; 10-12 Mark 1:21; 2:23; 3:2; 4, Luke 4:31; 6:2.
    2. seven days, a week;
    (a) the sing. form: πρώτη σαββάτσυ, Mark 16:9; δὶς τοῦ σ . (Bl., § 35, 4; 36, 13), Luke 18:12; κατὰ μίαν σαββάτου, 1Co 16:2; pl., σ . τρία, Acts 17:2 R, mg. (but v. supr.);
    (b) the pl. form: ἡ μία τῶν σ . (where the gen. = μετὰ τά ; Soph., Lex., 43a), Matt 28:1, Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1, John 20:1; 19, Acts 20:7.

    Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Thayer - G4521
    G4521 — σάββατον
    σαββάτου, τό (Hebrew שַׁבָּת), found in the N. T. only in the historical books except twice in Paul's Epistles; sabbath; i. e.:

    1. the seventh day of each week, which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work (Exod 20:10; 31:13; Deut 5:14);
    a. singular σάββατον and τό σάββατον: Mark 6:2; (16:1; John 5:9f, etc.; equivalent to the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week: Matt 12:8; Mark 2:27; Luke 6:5; λύειν, John 5:18; τηρεῖν, 9:16; ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ σαββάτου (הַשַּׁבָּת יום, Exod 20:8 and often), the day of the sabbath, sabbath-day, Luke 13:16; 14:5; ὁδός σαββάτου, a sabbath-day's journey, the distance it is lawful to travel on the sabbath-day, i. e. according to the Talmud two thousand cubits or paces, according to Epiphanius (haer. 66, 82) six stadia: Acts 1:12, cf. Matt 24:20 (the regulation was derived from Exod 16:29); cf. Winers RWB, under the word Sabbathsweg; Oehler in Herzog xiii., 203f (cf. Leyrer in Herzog edition 2 vol. 9:379); Mangold in Sehenkel v., 127f; (Ginsburg in Alexander's Kitto under the word Sabbath Day's Journey; Lumby on Acts 1:12 (in Cambr. Bible for Schools)). as dative of time (Winers Grammar, § 31, 9 b.; Buttmann, § 133, 26): σαββάτῳ, Matt 24:20 (G L T Tr WH); Luke 14:1; τῷ σαββάτῳ, 6:9 L text T Tr WH; 13:14; 14:3; Acts 13:44; ἐν σαββάτῳ, Matt 12:2; John 5:16; 7:22 (here L WH brackets ἐν),23; ἐν τῷ σαββάτῳ, Luke 6:7; John 19:31, accusative τό σάββατον during (on) the sabbath (cf. Buttmann, § 131, 11; Winer's Grammar, § 32,6): Luke 23:56; κατά πᾶν σάββατον every sabbath, Acts 13:27; 15:21; 18:4. plural τά σάββατα, of several sabbaths, 17:2 (some refer this to 2).

    b. plural, τά σαββάτων (for the singular) of a single sabbath, sabbath-day; the use of the plural being occasioned either by the plural names of festivals, as τά ἐγκαίνια, ἄζυμα, γενέσια, or by the Chaldaic form שַׁבָּתָא (Winers Grammar, 177 (167); Buttmann, 23 (21))): Matt 28:1; Col 2:16 (Exod 20:10; Lev 23:32 etc.; τήν ἑβδόμην σάββατα καλουμεν, Josephus, Antiquities 3, 6, 6; add, 1, 1, 1; (14, 10, 25; Philo de Abrah. § 5; de cherub. § 26; Plutarch, de superstitione 8); τήν τῶν σαββάτων ἑορτήν, Plutarch, symp. 4, 6, 2; hodie tricesima sabbata, Horace sat. 1, 9, 69; nowhere so used by John except in the phrase μία τῶν σαββάτων, on which see 2 below); ἡ ἡμέρα τῶν σαββάτων, Luke 4:16; Acts 13:14; 16:13 (Exod 20:8; 35:3; Deut 5:12; Jer 17:21f); τοῖς σάββασιν and ἐν τοῖς σάββασιν (so constantly (except Lachmann in Matt 12:1, 12:12) by metaplasm for σαββάτοις, cf. Winers Grammar, 63 (62); (Buttmann, 23 (21))) on the sabbath-day: 12:1(see above),5, 10-12 (see above); Mark 1:21; 2:23; 3:2, 3:4; Luke 4:31; 6:9 (R G L marginal reading) (1 Macc. 2:38; the Sept. uses the form σαββάτοις, and Josephus both forms). On the precepts of the Jews with regard to the observance of the sabbath, which were for the most part extremely punctilious and minute, cf. Winers RWB, under the word Sabbath; Oehler in Herzog xiii. 192ff (revised by Orelli in edition 2 vol. xiii. 156ff); Schürer, Zeitgesch. 2te Aufl. § 28 II.; Mangold in Schenkel see, p. 123f; (BB. DD., under the word; Geikie, Life and Words of Christ, chapter xxxviii. vol. ii: p. 95ff; Farrar, Life of Christ, chapter xxxi. vol. i., p. 432f; Edersheim, Jesus the Messiah, vol. ii., p. 56ff and Appendix, xvii.).

    2. seven days, a week: πρώτη σαββάτου, Mark 16:9; δίς τοῦ σαββάτου, twice in the week, Luke 18:12. The plural is used in the same sense in the phrase ἡ μία τῶν σαββάτων, the first day of the week (see εἷς, 5) (Prof. Sophocles regards the genitive (dependent on ἡμέρα) in such examples as those that follow (cf. Mark 16:9 above) as equivalent to μετά with an accusative, the first day after the sabbath; see his Lex., p. 43 par. 6): Matt 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1, 20:19; Acts 20:7; κατά μίαν σαββάτων (L T Tr WH σαββάτου), on the first day of every week, 1Co 16:2.

    ................

    Take Care
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2021
  4. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why would I want to debate all that cannon fodder in your post when you cannot even address the simple Greek of that Colossians 2:16 verse about the Sabbath?

    Do you really think that posting all that cannon fodder proves your false interpretation??
     
  5. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    If you read the post you are quoting from, it is addressing the Greek application of sabbaths or sabbath [days] which is plural application from the Greek that some English translations use in detail showing why they are translated that way. As shown above, the Greek word σάββατον sabbaton [GNP] is plural application in the Greek to the annual festivals. I did not provide an interpretation. You were only shown the Greek meaning and application to the context of Colossians 2:16 as provided from Greek Lexicons, and Greek dictionaries that disagree with your teachings.

    We should be careful not to simply cherry pick scripture taken out of context to seek to support a belief that contradicts God's Word and read into the scriptures what they do not say or teach as this can lead to misinterpretation of the scriptures and a promotion of false teachings that are not biblical. According to the scriptures, God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11; Exodus 20:1-17) that give us the knowledge of what sin (moral wrong doing) is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and according to James if we knowingly break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.

    According to Paul if we continue in known unrepentant sin once God gives us a knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come *Hebrews 10:26-31. In times of ignorance however, God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word, he calls all men everywhere to believe and follow what His Word says *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31. There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday or the first day of the week as a holy day of rest. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and his Word to break the commandments of God. Jesus say in Matthew 15:2-9 if we knowingly follow man-made teachings and tradition of men that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God.

    So the question that should be considered by all of us is who do we believe and follow; God or man? Something to pray about.

    Take Care
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2021
  6. narnia59

    narnia59 Regular Member Supporter

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    This is just a suggestion. You seem to continually need to conclude that the person you're in discussion with did not read your posts. Perhaps you might consider the issue is your posts do not provide the necessary clarity to adequately illumine the point you wish to convey.
     
  7. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your suggestions but I only conclude that someone has either not read or understood a post being quoted that directly references subject matter or something that is being discussed in the post they are quoting from. This however is nothing new as many according to the scriptures close their eyes and ears to seeing and hearing Gods Word if it is something that they do not want to believe and follow according to the scriptures in Isaiah 6:9-10 which was also quoted by Jesus and Paul when they faced similar situations in Matthew 13:14-15 and Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27. Also, if you follow my posts through, if subject matter is being ignored you will see I continue to show and build upon what has already been written even if someone chooses not to see what is being shared with them to add clarity. That said we can always seek to improve our writing styles but I also believe according to the scriptures that people for whatever reason sometimes choose not to see and hear God's Word if it does not agree with their teachings or traditions. This is how it has always been through out time and this will continue to be the case until the second coming.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2021
  8. narnia59

    narnia59 Regular Member Supporter

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    Never mind
     
  9. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    I think the topic of the Royal Priesthood is an interesting one for me. According to the scriptures God's Royal Priesthood are to be holy. That is, they are believers and followers of what God's Word says. As the Word of God is the foundation and faith or teachings of Gods' true Church and the only true standard of what is true and what is not true and the only true authority of what is right and what is wrong. What might be an interesting question to consider however is what does it actually mean to believe and follow God's Word? This is a question that can mean different things to different people based on what they believe and do not believe and where they are at in their Christian walk (new Christian; babe or older Christian who has continued in Gods' Word).

    God bless
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
  10. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    Excellent question!
    I don't have an answer. At the same time, though, I'm also not really sold on sola scriptura... so it's not something I feel like I need to defend.
     
  11. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    Which question are you talking about? Is it this one?

    "The question was how can we fulfill the Spirit of the law without fulfilling the letter of the law?"

    I did answer it, the answer is Galatians 5:14. The direct answer to your question of how can we fulfill the spirit of law without fulfilling the letter of it is to love our neighbor as ourselves.

    It is at this point that someone who thinks they can keep the letters of the laws will say something like, "You mean it's okay to steal and murder?"

    So in order to keep us from going in circles, it seems to me a good idea to talk about the letters of the laws.

    Since you brought up Leviticus 27:32, I assume you believe it's one of God's moral laws.

    That's why I'm asking you about the letters of it. How do you keep it, and if it doesn't apply directly to you, how do you teach others to keep it by the letter?
     
  12. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello Leaf, as posted earlier the question was not how can we fulfill the Spirit of the law without fulfilling the letter of the law (linked post here), so you did not answer this question. However I was happy to talk about both questions...

    Q1. How can we fulfill the Spirit of the law without fulfilling the letter of the law?
    Q2. How do we fulfill the Spirit of the law?

    They are different question. You gave the answer for the second question above but mine was the first question which was not answered. However I am happy to talk about both questions...

    A1. How can we fulfill the Spirit of the law without fulfilling the letter of the law?

    According to the scriptures we cannot obey the Spirit of the law without obeying the letter of the law as love is the Spirit of Gods' law in all those who have been born again to believe and follow what God's Word says and it is Gods' Spirit of love that obeys God's law from the new heart given to all those who have entered into God's new covenant promise to love *see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. Love therefore does not abolish God's law. Love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law from the inside out *Matthew 5:17-28. Love therefore according to the scriptures fulfills the letter of the law *Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; Matthew 22:36-40; 1 John 5:2-3; John 14:15; John 15:10; Romans 3:31; 1 John 3:6-9; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

    A2. How do we fulfill the Spirit of the law?

    You provided the correct answer here which is through love. You also objected by saying at this point people will say something like "You mean it's okay to steal and murder?". To be honest with you that was not what I was going to say to you at all but it is a fair question for clarification. The reason why and has been outlined through the scriptures earlier, love does not abolish God's law it is expressed in obedience to Gods' law. This is the Spirit of the law and is what Paul is talking about in Romans 13:8-10 when he says "he that loves another hath fulfilled the law." Paul here is saying that if we love our neighbor we fulfill what God's what God's law says. Paul clarifies this in Romans 13:9-10 where he continues " For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. That is love is expressed in obedience to what Gods' law says. All of the above is agreed to by James when he says if you fulfill the royal law according to the scriptures in James 2:10-11 Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, you do well but if you have respect to persons you commit sin and are convicted of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law." That is we cannot claim to love our neighbor by breaking those laws in God's 10 commandments that show our love to our fellow man. This is why Jesus says in Matthew 22:36-40 on these two great commandments of love to God and love to our fellow man hang all the law and the prophets. John is also in agreement with Paul, James and Jesus when he says in 1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. So as shown through the scriptures above, love is not separate from Gods' law it is expressed in obedience to Gods' law as we believe and follow what Gods' Word says.

    .................

    Now what is it that has been shared here from the scriptures that you disagree with?

    Hope this is helpful.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
  13. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    Hi LoveGodsWord,

    I'm not sure what's going on here. How can we fulfill the Spirit of the law without fulfilling the letter of the law is what you say the question is at the beginning of the post you linked to:

    Cool!

    I respectfully disagree. The answer I gave answers both questions. You are welcome to disagree with the answer that I gave. Or you can say that the way I understood the question was different from the way you intended it.

    I don't see that any of the three scriptures you cite support your thesis that
    "we cannot obey the Spirit of the law without obeying the letter of the law".

    Yes, they speak of things like God putting his spirit in us, and a new heart, and us keeping his statutes and ordinances.

    But imo none of these things are in question.

    At issue is how we go about keeping those statutes and ordinances.

    Absolutely!

    This is where the same words can be taken two different ways.

    I agree that love fulfills the letter of the law.

    But that can be taken two different ways.

    It could mean that the person who loves will go on to physically perform the letters of the law.

    Or it could mean that the person who loves has thereby already fulfilled the law, since the overall principle of the law, the goal, is to love.

    Exactly! The one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled
    (perfect tense, if I'm reading the website right)
    the law.

    Romans 13:8 Interlinear: To no one owe anything, except to love one another; for he who is loving the other -- law he hath fulfilled,

    All great scriptures that talk about the importance of obedience. But I don't think any of them talk directly about how we go about keeping and fulfilling the law, in spirit/principle or by letter.

    The James passage possibly does that, but then it talks about fulfilling the law by loving your neighbor, which sounds like the principle of the entire law to me

    Right, I didn't say that you were going to say it. But it is something that has often been sent to me by people who frequently agree with you.

    I disagree. I think he is saying that if we love our neighbor, we have already fulfilled what God's law says.

    Right, because the one who loves and has therefore already fulfilled the law does not go on to commit unloving acts. Not because of the letters of those laws, but because the principles of those laws are naturally fulfilled by the person who loves their neighbor.

    The principles given in those laws, yes.

    And Paul uses as examples laws
    where it's easy to see how the letters fit with the principles,
    and all of it fits together and leads up to the overall principle of loving your neighbor as yourself.

    That's right, and James must be talking about the principles of those commandments, because obviously you can break the letters of one of those commandments and not break the letters of the other.

    Yes, both Paul and James use examples where it's easy to see how the principles all fit together.

    Right again, and it's obedience to the principles of the laws, which all lead up to the overall principle of loving your neighbor as yourself, that fulfills the law.

    I don't disagree with anything in those scriptures, as you can see. I don't, however, always agree with your interpretation of those scriptures.

    I think it is helpful, hopefully we understand each other better now.

    Of course, we don't want to leave out the parallel to Romans 13, Galatians 5:14.

    If I'm reading it right, it too speaks of the law all ready fulfilled in the past tense by loving our neighbor.

    Galatians 5:14 Interlinear: for all the law in one word is fulfilled -- in this: 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself;'
     
  14. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    The question was not asking how we are to fulfill the Spirit of the law. It was asking how can we fulfill the Spirit of the law without fulfilling the letter of the law?
    Perhaps it was a misunderstanding. As shown above your answer was how we fulfill the Spirit of the law which is through love in which I also agree but it does not show how it fulfills the letter of the law which was the purpose of the question being asked. The point here I think you missed is that you cannot fulfill the Spirit of the law without fulfilling the letter of the law because they are both connected to each other. On the reverse side however we can be like the Scribes and the Pharisees who fulfilled the letter of the law but not the Spirit of the law and Jesus says on the inside they are like dead mans bones and if our righteousness is the same as theirs (not keeping the Spirit of the law) we cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven *Matthew 5:17-20; Matthew 23:37.
    It was actually 13 scriptures not three and was not a thesis but scripture from God's Word that are not my words but God's Word. Perhaps you mean three sets of references but that was not all that was provided in the post you were quoting from. That was only one section of the post which also included other references from Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-11; 1 John 5:2-3 etc all showing that love fulfills the letter of the law through the Spirit of the law (love). The scriptures provided in Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-36 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 was simply showing that all the above were God's new covenant promise of a new heart to love through faith in all those who have been born again in the Spirit of the law to obey Gods' law. Therefore by being obedient to walk in God's law is in fact obeying the letter of the law from the heart by faith that works by love. This is Gods' new covenant promise to all those who believe and follow God's Word.
    Your response here...
    You agree here that love is expressed in obedience to God's law and love fulfills the letter of the law. This was the point of my previous post. That is the Spirit of the law also fulfills the letter of the law, meaning those who have entered into God's new covenant promise obey the letter of the law from the heart through faith. Then what does it mean when we break the letter of God's law? - It means that we are not following the Spirit of the law because we cannot follow the Spirit of the law without keeping the letter of God's law. So if we break God's commandments no one is following the Spirit of the law according to the scriptures (see Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:36-40; James 2:8-11 and 1 John 5:2-3).
    Keep reading, I posted Romans 13:8-10 not Romans 13:8 which says "he that loves another hath fulfilled the law." Paul here is saying that if we love our neighbor we fulfill what God's what God's law says. Paul clarifies this in Romans 13:9-10 where he continues " For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly summed up in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. That is love is expressed in obedience to what Gods' law says. Paul also showing that to love our neighbor as our self is simply summing up how love is expressed in obedience to those laws in God's 10 commandments that have to do with showing us how we express our love to our fellow man.
    Your response here...
    The reason for posting those scriptures was not to show how we go about keeping the Spirit of the law they were posted to show that the Spirit of God's law (love) is not separate from the letter of the law which is expressed in obedience to the letter of the law. I think you may have missed the point here. The scriptures above were posted to show the link to love and law and now the love is not separate to obedience to God's law. Love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law. For example Romans 13:8-10 as already posted shows that love fulfills the letter of Gods' law by obeying the from the heart through love and quotes the letter of the law of those of the 10 commandments that are our duty of love to our fellow man. Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40 after quoting the two great commandments of love to God and man states that on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets showing once again that love is not separate from Gods' law it is expressed in obedience to Gods' law. Also in regards to your comment on James. Compare these scriptures in James 2:8-11 with what what Paul says in Romans 13:8-10. Paul says that loving our neighbor as our self is simply summing up those commandments in Gods law that are to do with how we are to love our neighbor as our self *Romans 13:9.
    The remaining scriptures show that Gods' people keep and obey God's commandments which is agreeing with the Spirit of the law being expressed in obedience to the law which fulfills the letter of the law.
    Your response here...
    Actually that is not what the scriptures says at all. Romans 13:8-10 shows that loving our neighbor as our self is simply a summary of those commandments in God's 10 commandments that are our duty of love to our fellow man. This is stated in Romans 13:9 where it says [9], For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly summed up in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Paul makes this very clear also in the whole context of the scriptures in Romans 13:8-10 where it is written in full context; [8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. [9], For this (or what this means), Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly summed up in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [10], Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    The Greek word used here for fulfilling of the law is πλήρωμα and means keeping the law or completing the law.

    Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Thayer - G4138
    G4138 — πλήρωμα equivalent to πλήρωσις (see καύχημα, 2), i. e. a fulfilling, keeping: τοῦ νόμου (see πληρόω, 2 c. α.), Rom 13:10. For a full discussion of this word see Fritzsche, Ep. ad Romans, ii., p. 469ff; (especially Lightfoot's Commentary on Colossians, p. 257ff).
    Galatians 5:14 which says For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; You shall love your neighbor as yourself. As shown in Romans 13:8-10 and James in James 2:8-11, love is expressed in obedience to God's law not by breaking Gods law. No one therefore can claim to love God by being disobedient to Gods' law as Paul shows in Romans 13:8-10 that loving our neighbor is expressed in obedience to God's 10 commandments that show us how we are to love our fellow man. James shows that if we show partiality to those commandments in God's 10 commandments that show us how we are to love our neighbor as our self we stand guilty before God of sin and transgressors of the law. While Paul in Romans 13:9 shows us the loving our neighbor as our self is simply a summary of those commandments in God's 10 commandments that show us how we are to love our fellow men from the heart through faith that works by love. This is why James says elsewhere that faith without works is the dead faith of devils in James 2:18-26. So there is no such thing according to the scripture as loving God and our fellow man without being obedient to God's 10 commandments which shows us how to love God (first four commandments) and our fellow man (second six commandments) which is why Jesus says; On these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets (Matthew 22:36-40). Love is therefore not separate from Gods' law. Love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law. It is therefore obedience to God's law from the heart that fulfills (obeys, completes) God's law. Law is not separate from love in the new covenant. Love is expressed and fulfilled by obeying what God's law says from the inside out.

    Hope this is helpful.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
  15. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    (I would like to quote your full post its entirety here at the beginning. But I got an error message saying that the final post would be too long.)

    Right, and I believe I answered that. Of course, you are welcome to disagree with my answer, then we have something to discuss.

    If you're asking how we can fulfill the letter of the law, then my answer is that I don't think that we can.

    What I answered was how we can fulfill the principle of the law without fulfilling the letter.

    I believe I showed from several of the scriptures that you posted that it is possible to keep the principle of the law without keeping the letter.

    Right, we don't want to be like the scribes and pharisees.

    That particular sentence ends with citing three scriptures passages, that's what I responded to.

    Your thesis is: "we cannot obey the Spirit of the law without obeying the letter of the law". This is not a quote of any Scripture that I know of. It is your interpretation of the scriptures, imo.

    There were three in that sentence that I was responding to in that section of my post, then I go on to talk about the others.

    However, scriptures which speak simply of the importance of keeping God's commandments I did not address specifically, since we both agree we are to keep God's commandments.

    How we go about keeping those commandments is where we differ in our interpretation of the scriptures, imo.

    And I agree that we are to obey God's law. I didn't see that those particular scripture passages relate to the issue of keeping the principles and letters of the law.

    Again, we have different interpretations of those passages. I think the easiest way to see why I use the interpretation I do is to discuss in detail passages such as Leviticus 27:32.

    Well, that's where we differ as to the meaning of "Love fulfills the letter of the law".

    I believe you are drawing conclusions based on your interpretations of the scriptures, but we don't share those interpretations.

    I disagree. In light of the entire passage, as you cited, I think Paul is saying that the person who loves their neighbor has already fulfilled the law.

    I think what the scriptures are saying is that love fulfills the law, not that love is the method by which one tries to keep the letter of the law.

    We have differing interpretations of those passages.

    That's the Greek root of the word being used. The actual word being used is the perfect tense of that word, if I understand the Bible hub page correctly.

    Galatians 5:14 uses that same perfect tense. I think this would be an interesting thing if you wish to discuss that in detail.

    I think it would be helpful if we could discuss in detail some of the laws such as Leviticus 27:32 and the perfect tense of the Greek word fulfill as it relates to fulfilling the law.

    Are you interested in that?
     
  16. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    So all you have really said here Leaf is that you disagree with the scriptures shared with you without showing why you disagree. How is that a response to the posts you are quoting from that show from the scriptures that love is not separate from God's law and that love is expressed through obedience to God's law which in turn fulfills the letter of the law in those who have been born again into God's new covenant promise to walk in His Spirit? Yet everything that is shared with you here is God's Word not my words that you disagree with your words that are not Gods' Word. I can understand your unwillingness to discuss the topic or answer the questions asked of you but how do you suppose we can continue a discussion if you disregard or hand waive away the scriptures shared with you that disagree with your teachings?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2021
  17. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    No, I disagree with your interpretation of those scriptures.

    I do talk about why I disagree with your interpretation. I bring up the perfect tense of the Greek word translated fulfill in Galatians 5:14 and Romans 13:8.

    It's a good response because I point out those places where I don't think the scriptures that you cite support your point and give details about why I think a different interpretation is better.

    I do not disagree with any of the scripture passages you reference. I disagree with your interpretations of them.

    For example, when you say, "we cannot obey the Spirit of the law without obeying the letter of the law", that is not from any scripture passage that I know of. That is your interpretation.

    I propose we continue the discussion by you dealing with the perfect tense in Galatians 5:14 and Romans 13:8. In addition to that, you could agree to discuss in detail laws such as Leviticus 27:32, which I alluded to in the post that you are responding to and asked about in more detail in previous posts.

    Here's looking forward to a good discussion!
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021
  18. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    You have only been provided scripture which supports what has been shared with you verbatim and that is love is not separate from God's law it is expressed in obedience to God' law resulting in the fulfilling of the letter of the law in those who have been born again to walk in the Spirit of the law through God's new covenant promise *Matthew 22:36-40 (quoting Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18); Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-11; 1 John 5:2-3; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; Galatians 5:16; Romans 3:31; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

    As posted earlier all you have really said here Leaf is that you disagree with the scriptures shared with you without showing why you disagree. How is that a response to the posts you are quoting from that show from the scriptures that love is not separate from God's law and that love is expressed through obedience to God's law which in turn fulfills the letter of the law in those who have been born again into God's new covenant promise to walk in His Spirit? Yet everything that is shared with you here is God's Word not my words that you disagree with your words that are not Gods' Word. I can understand your unwillingness to discuss the topic or answer the questions asked of you but how do you suppose we can continue a discussion if you disregard or hand waive away the scriptures shared with you that disagree with your teachings?

    ...........

    Let's talk about your claims here where you state that Galatians 5:14 and Romans 13:8 give a different interpretation to the scriptures provided above that show love is not separate from God's law it is expressed in obedience to God' law resulting in the fulfilling of the letter of the law in those who have been born again to walk in the Spirit of the law through God's new covenant promise.

    The scriptures you provide and your argument and interpretation is as follows...

    [1]. Galatians 5:14 says [4], For all the law is fulfilled [perfect tense to a completed action in the past] in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself [future tense active].

    links to...

    [2]. Romans 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another [present tense active] hath fulfilled the law [perfect tense to a completed action].

    Your claim here is that the Greek word "fulfilled" shows that the law is fulfilled in the past tense . Now how does this disagree with anything that has been shared with you? It' doesn't but allow me to show why by looking at both tenses in the scripture, because when we love God with all of our heart, mind and soul and our neighbor as our self this is the Spirit of the law that fulfills the letter of the law and what it means to fulfill (obey) God's law.

    Let's talk about the tenses in context to the scripture in Galatians 5:14 and Romans 13:8-10. Paul is not saying we love once past tense and all the law is fulfilled and we can continue to sin (break Gods law - 1 John 3:4). The application to "fulfilled" past tense to the law in Galatians 5:14 is when we love present tense. So when we love present tense the law is fulfilled. This is also made very clear in Romans 13:8 where Paul says "for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law." It is loving or to love in the present tense that fulfills Gods' law. This is made clear in Romans 13:10 where Paul says that love is the "fulfilling" (keeping or doing) the law. Does this make sense to you? Love is present tense is resulting in the law being fulfilled in the past tense by obeying what Gods' word says. No one can claim to love God therefore according to the scriptures by breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments as shown directly in *Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-11; 1 John 5:2-3. John goes on further to say that those who claim to know God while breaking his commandments are liars and the truth is not in them in 1 John 2:3-4 and that those who practice known unrepentant sin (breaking God's law) and those who do not practice sin is the difference the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:4-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

    Paul demonstrates this in Romans 13:8-10 where he shows us that love is expressed and fulfilled in doing what God's law say..

    Romans 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another hath fulfilled the law [past tense]. [9], FOR THIS (or what this means), THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and IF THERE SHALL BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly SUMMED UP IN THE SAYING, NAMELY THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS YOUR SELF. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law [present tense active].

    The Greek word used here for fulfilling of the law is πλήρωμα and means keeping the law or completing the law. The Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Thayer says for G4138 — πλήρωμα equivalent to πλήρωσις (see καύχημα, 2), i. e. a fulfilling, keeping: τοῦ νόμου (see πληρόω, 2 c. α.), Rom 13:10. For a full discussion of this word see Fritzsche, Ep. ad Romans, ii., p. 469ff; (especially Lightfoot's Commentary on Colossians, p. 257ff).

    What you seem to be missing from Romans 13:9 as Paul is stating verbatim is that "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself is simply summing up those commandments in God's 10 commandments that are our duty of love to our neighbor which is what he is quoting from in God's 10 commandments.
    No this is what scripture says verbatim so it is God's Word not my words that you deny with your words that are not God's Word and is the context of the scriptures you leave out in only looking at Romans 13:8 while disregarding Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; Matthew 22:36-40 and 1 John 5:2-3. While ignoring those scriptures showing that Gods' saints obey God's law in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-10; Romans 3:31 Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 etc..

    It is Gods' Word (not my words) that show that love is not separate from God's law it is expressed in obedience to God' law resulting in the fulfilling of the letter of the law in those who have been born again to walk in the Spirit of the law through God's new covenant promise

    What God Word says...

    Matthew 22:36-40 [36], Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37], Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38], This is the first and great commandment. [39], And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. [40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

    Jesus is not saying that love is separate from God's law he is says that on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets which is what Gods' Word says that are not my words but Gods' Word which have been simply repeated to you verbatim. Paul agrees with Jesus when he says...

    Romans 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another hath fulfilled the law [past tense]. [9], FOR THIS (or what this means), THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and IF THERE SHALL BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly SUMMED UP IN THE SAYING, NAMELY THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS YOUR SELF. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law [present tense active].

    Paul is agreeing with Jesus and not saying that love is separate from God's law he is says that love is expressed in obedience to Gods law and says that if we love another we will obey those commandments in God's 10 commandments (letter of the law) that show us how we are to love our fellow man by quoting those commandments verbatim. Paul is showing that to love our neighbor as our self is simply summing up those commandments in God's law that show us how we are to love our fellow man. These once again are God's Word not my words which have only been repeated to you from the scriptures. James also agrees with Jesus and Paul where he says...

    James 2:8-12 [8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:[9], But if ye have respect to persons, YOU COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS. [10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit NO ADULTERY, yet if thou KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

    James agrees with Jesus and Paul where he links loving our neighbor as our self to obedience to all those commandments in Gods 10 commandments (letter of the law) that show us our duty of love to our neighbor. Once again these are God's Word not my words which have only been repeated to you from the scriptures verbatim. John also agrees with Jesus Paul and James where he says...

    1 John 5:2-3 [2], By this we know that we love the children of God, WHEN WE LOVE GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. [3], FOR THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

    John also agreeing with Jesus, Paul, James and John (5x different witnesses from the scriptures including Jesus) all in agreement showing that love is not separate from obedience to Gods' law. Love is expressed in obedience to God's law which fulfills the letter of the law. Once again these are God's Word not my words which have only been repeated to you from the scriptures verbatim.

    Now what is it that you disagree with here from the scriptures that have been shared with you?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
  19. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    @Leaf473 lets add on to this a little further and apply what Paul says in Romans 13:8-10 applied in a different way simply as a discussion. As posted earlier Paul says in

    Romans 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another hath fulfilled the law [past tense]. [9], FOR THIS (or what this means), THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and IF THERE SHALL BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly SUMMED UP IN THE SAYING, NAMELY THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS YOUR SELF. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law [present tense active].

    Are you seriously going to try and argue here that we can love God while breaking his commandments?

    For example considering what Paul says above in Romans 13:8-10; Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40; James in James 2:8-10 and John in 1 John 5:2-3 etc as shown in the post above this one, in your view....

    Do you love God by having other Gods?
    Do you love God by making idols and bowing down to worship them?
    Do you love God by taking Gods' name in vain?
    Do you love God by breaking his holy Sabbath day?
    Do you love your parents by dishonoring them?
    Do you love your neighbor by killing them?
    Do you love your neighbor by committing adultery with their spouse?
    Do you love your neighbor by stealing from them?
    Do you love your neighbor by lying to them?
    Do you love your neighbor by coveting their belongings?

    Hope this adds some clarity to the discussion. The above are all the letter of the law which love is expressed in obedience through in the Spirit of the law which is God's new covenant promise from Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 in all those who have been born of the Spirit to believe and follow God's Word *Galatians 5:16; 1 John 3:6-9.

    Take Care.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
  20. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    Well, let's start with Galatians 5:14

    Galatians 5:14 Interlinear: for all the law in one word is fulfilled -- in this: 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself;'

    What tense is the word translated "fulfill" according to that website?
     
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