Gods Order in the body of Christ

[Wordkeeper]

Maybe.

But receiving teaching from men - people - is good.
There are people who are language experts and can tell us EXACTLY what was originally written in Scripture. There are people who know a lot about the way of life as it was then and can give us insight into their habits, traditions, problems and so on. There are theologians who can teach us about God's purposes, nature and character.
Yes, this could lead into a "don't think for yourself just believe what men say" type of attitude - or it could lead to someone understanding and appreciating Scripture more than they ever had done.
Passages like "I am the Good Shepherd" take on new meaning when you learn that, in the east, shepherds led their sheep from the front and would lay down in front of the entrance to the sheep pen, so that any wolves had to get past the shepherd to get to the sheep. And that sheep were very valuable; a source of food, wool and income.
When I first started learning about exegesis - reading a passage in context, noting the style of literature and writing, considering who it was written to, what they would have understood by it, and so on - I thought, "how boring and unnecessary; what a good way to destroy someone's understanding of Scripture." But actually, it has been very enriching, opened Scripture up to me in many ways and helped me to appreciate it more.

We shouldn't rely on people to do our study and thinking for us, or treat clergy, theologians and commentators as infallible.
But I would be very wary of anyone who said "the Holy Spirit taught me", and expected you to believe their words without allowing them to be tested and checked. Rather like "Rev" Moon, who said that he had had a personal vision of, and commissioning by, Jesus - and founded a whole cult based on that experience. Or like the leaders of JWs, Mormons etc who were doing a similar sort of thing; expecting people to follow leaers who had been personally taught by God. Many of these can even quote Scripture; it is THEIR understanding of it, but has supposedly been revealed and therefore cannot be challenged.
Doctrine and theology can seem stifling - but Scripture tells us to test the spirits, discuss doctrine with the church leaders and STUDY to learn the faith and show yourself approved by God.

As with everything else, it's down to the individual Christian, their faith, attitude, response and so on. Some traditional Christians are wonderful believers with great faith, are spirit filled, bearing fruit and do on. Yet, as I said before, some people who seem charismatic, spiritual and outwardly are doing the right things, are actually judgemental, narrow minded and so on.

Systematic theology.
Biblical theology.
Asking for bread, daily.

The grammatical historical method hasn't really been helpful in nailing down the meaning because of the fluid nature of language. Because language is in flux, pinning something down is really a titanic task. Almost Sisyphusian! Hmm...you should read up epistemological nihilism.

Biblical theology really isn't interested in enlightening you on central ideas.

So what are we left with?

 

[Strong in Him]

Biblical theology really isn't interested in enlightening you on central ideas.

It's always worked pretty well for me.

 

[Wordkeeper]

It's always worked pretty well for me.

Okay so God promises Abraham he will be a blessing to the world.

But Abraham whines he doesn't have a son.

So how did Biblical Theology edify you?

 

[John tower]

I don't know where you get the idea about "one person controls all".
Every church that I've been in has a leadership team/church council/PCC or whatever and it is they who make/vote on the decisions. It's true that the Minister usually chairs such a meeting - in reality, though, they don't usually get to vote unless there is a tie/deadlock, in which case they have the casting vote.
A minister may organise and decide on the worship, if it is a small church and he is on his own there; but a number of places have worship committees and worship leaders. A wise Minister will use his/her worship leaders, allowing them to choose hymns/songs relating to the theme of the service, lead prayers, maybe even come up with a drama sketch, or dance, to enhance and illustrate what is being said. And will go to the worship committee with an attitude of "I thought we could/I'd like us to try ....." rather than "We WILL be doing .....".

The Minister/Vicar/Pastor has pastoral care for the church, has overall responsibility and is seen, by others, as the figure head; the go to person for problems, questions, requests for baptism etc. That is very far from saying that he/she "controls" it.
The only places I have heard of that happening is in some house/independent churches where there is no hierarchy/structure and the Minister does not seem to be held accountable to anyone. Then, it can be a matter of "you WILL tithe, etc, if you want to remain in this church".

Well your church is the exception : most churches I have seen are firmly controlled by one person

 

[Strong in Him]

Well your church is the exception : most churches I have seen are firmly controlled by one person

No, it's not the exception.
All Methodist, Anglican, URC and other churches, in the UK I can't speak for elsewhere, are led in the same way.
In the CofE, the vicar may well have a curate, a deacon/deaconess, a parish worker or maybe a Church Army evangelist on the staff team with him. There may also be one or two lay readers or retired vicars. Whether or not that is the case, there will be a PCC, of whatever size. As I said, the vicar will lead his ministry team, and chair the PCC, but he cannot make a decision, that affects, the life of the church, completely on his own and implement it with no consultation at all.
In the Methodist church the Minister is stationed to a circuit (group of Methodist churches), with pastoral responsibility for one or more of the churches in it. They, and local preachers, may be, and are, sent to preach at any church in the circuit. If the Superintendent wanted to rearrange the circuit, assign Ministers to different churches and open/close churches; he, or she, can do that. Ultimately, though, ALL ministers answer to the Methodist conference. One of our Ministers is moving next month, even though her 5 year appointment to us hasn't ended, because Conference wanted her to go to a circuit with even fewer clergy than we have.
In the Baptist and URC churches they have elders, and, especially in the Baptist church, these seem to lead/rule the church almost as much as the Minister/pastor.

The only churches I have heard of when 1 man alone leads, decides and rules, are house/independent/free churches. As I said before, there seems to be no accountability, there is no one "higher up" (apart from God) to whom the Minister/Pastor has to answer.

 

[Strong in Him]

Okay so God promises Abraham he will be a blessing to the world.

But Abraham whines he doesn't have a son.

So how did Biblical Theology edify you?

There is way more to the story of Abraham than that.

God called Abram to leave his family and homeland to follow him, Genesis 12. He promised to make Abram a blessing, and promised to give land to his offspring.
A few years later, God repeated his promise to Abram, Genesis 15. Abram believed and it was credited to him as righteousness - justification by faith; a verse which is repeated at least 3 times in the NT.
Abram asked for a sign that he would possess the land that God had promised. God asked him to prepare a sacrifice, repeated his promise and made a covenant with him.
A few years later, God made another covenant with Abram; that he would have many descendants, Genesis 17. As a sign of this covenant, God changed his name from Abram to AbraHAm, and Sarai's name to SarAH - he breathed his name and Spirit into Abraham. On Abram's side, the covenant required him to be circumcised, to circumcise all males and to do so for ever after. Covenant theology.
Sometime after that, Abraham had 3 visitors who confirmed when their baby would be born, Genesis 18. Whoever these visitors were Abraham bowed down and referred to them as "Lord". A number of commentators have said that one of them may have been a theophany - God the Son, before he was born as Jesus. Though they laughed and appeared to doubt, Sarah did indeed have a boy whom they called Isaac.
Later, God told Abraham to take his only son, Isaac, whom he loved, and offer him as a sacrifice, Genesis 22.
Abraham obeyed, took Isaac, told Isaac that God himself would provide the sacrificial lamb, tied Isaac to the altar and prepared to kill him. God then told Abraham not to harm him, but to take the ram that was caught in the bushes and offer that instead. Isaac was saved from death by a sheep.
Thousands of years after that, John the Baptist declared Jesus to be the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world. God himself did provide this sacrificial lamb; his only Son whom he loved, Matthew 3:17. This incident with Abraham is widely seen as a prophecy, or foreshadowing, of the cross and what was to come. We have been saved from sin and death by a lamb - the Lamb of God.

 

[Wordkeeper]

There is way more to the story of Abraham than that.

God called Abram to leave his family and homeland to follow him, Genesis 12. He promised to make Abram a blessing, and promised to give land to his offspring.
A few years later, God repeated his promise to Abram, Genesis 15. Abram believed and it was credited to him as righteousness - justification by faith; a verse which is repeated at least 3 times in the NT.
Abram asked for a sign that he would possess the land that God had promised. God asked him to prepare a sacrifice, repeated his promise and made a covenant with him.
A few years later, God made another covenant with Abram; that he would have many descendants, Genesis 17. As a sign of this covenant, God changed his name from Abram to AbraHAm, and Sarai's name to SarAH - he breathed his name and Spirit into Abraham. On Abram's side, the covenant required him to be circumcised, to circumcise all males and to do so for ever after. Covenant theology.
Sometime after that, Abraham had 3 visitors who confirmed when their baby would be born, Genesis 18. Whoever these visitors were Abraham bowed down and referred to them as "Lord". A number of commentators have said that one of them may have been a theophany - God the Son, before he was born as Jesus. Though they laughed and appeared to doubt, Sarah did indeed have a boy whom they called Isaac.
Later, God told Abraham to take his only son, Isaac, whom he loved, and offer him as a sacrifice, Genesis 22.
Abraham obeyed, took Isaac, told Isaac that God himself would provide the sacrificial lamb, tied Isaac to the altar and prepared to kill him. God then told Abraham not to harm him, but to take the ram that was caught in the bushes and offer that instead. Isaac was saved from death by a sheep.
Thousands of years after that, John the Baptist declared Jesus to be the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world. God himself did provide this sacrificial lamb; his only Son whom he loved, Matthew 3:17. This incident with Abraham is widely seen as a prophecy, or foreshadowing, of the cross and what was to come. We have been saved from sin and death by a lamb - the Lamb of God.

Systematic Theology tells us what an event in the Bible means today. Biblical Theology tells us what the event meant to its participants when it happened. Although you claim to be a Biblical Theologian you've told us what the event means today. Abraham never thought about God's promise as a means to send a Saviour.

What do you think about Paul, given an unconnected revelation by the Holy Spirit, not using either systematic or Biblical Theology, that the complaint of Abraham was connected to the issue of the Old Covenant?

 

[Strong in Him]

Although you claim to be a Biblical Theologian you've told us what the event means today.

I'm not a Biblical theologian and didn't say that I was.

In a previous post I talked about using language experts to tell us the meaning of words, people who could tell us of the life and culture as it was then, and exegesis; studying a passage in context, considering the audience etc.
That is what I meant.
That may not be Biblical theology, or any other kind; I don't really know to be honest. But that is important when studying the Bible - not just taking verses and assuming they are to be taken literally and applied to, and by, us today.

I know Abraham would have had no concept of God sending the world a Saviour. But that's the thing about prophecy; it has an immediate, and future, meaning and application. That's why Matthew, Paul etc used to write saying "this was to fulfil what was said ......", or "Jesus said this to fulfil ....." or "as the prophet said...".

 

[Wordkeeper]

It's always worked pretty well for me.

What worked pretty well for you?

How did it help you?

 

[Madelyn Grace]

GOD'S ORDER IN THE BODY OF CHRIST

God’s order in the body of Christ is His spiritual working in every part as he leads and empowers believers in all things. Though hidden from the eyes of natural men, it is there nevertheless. This order begins in the spirit and the patient waiting on God as He leads into all gifts, ministry, fruits of the Spirit and sets the order. No person can know this order unless they are in Christ, and walk in the spirit. But sadly, many christians today are drawn away from God’s order and rule in their hearts into a religious form of man’s order and exalted leaders.

Man’s order does not begin in the spirit, it begins in man’s natural mind and human wisdom, and is regulated by programs and traditions of men in the rudiments of the world that can make the word of God of no effect.

Jesus said, “I will build my church” and he is fully able to do this by his power and might, which he has been doing all along. But If you ask many believers today, “how is a church built?” They would say something like, “well, first you save up money for years with a gathering, or one that meets in a school or community center and then you buy a piece of land or go into debt, hire a construction crew and you pay them to build the church building. Then you put some pews in it, build an altar and pulpit, have a Pastor over all and make a name for it, put a sign up on the lawn, register with the government and there you go, the church is ready.

Then the whole assembly comes in and sit in rows facing the back of each others heads as they look forward to the exalted man on the podium, or “altar”, who gives a message to the church every week.

But this is not how Jesus Christ builds his church, nor has he ever built His church this way. Christ builds his church from the inside out and this work starts from within all believers. The “church” is the body of Christ (Eph.1:22, 23) and a living organism. It is a spiritual house made up of living stones (1 Peter 2:5), which is built up in the revelation of Jesus Christ. This is the starting point of Jesus building. It is not a man made religious building or a corporation with bosses and employees. Jesus Christ is the head of the church, which is his body, he is not the head of institutions and man made forms.

The Lord Builds the House

In God’s order, all believers must “...grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.“ (Ephesians 4:15,16). This edifying (or building up) of one another in love is how Christ builds His Church from the inside out.

In God’s order He arranges all things after His mighty working in the saints (Heb. 13:20, 21) as believers labourer together with him (1 Cor. 3:9). This order begins in the peace of God and by His rule (or governing) in the spirit (Col.3:15,16) as we wait on the Lord for ministry in the body one to another (Rom. 12:3-8). Only then can we grow up into him (Eph. 4:15).

Despite the multitudes of believers who gather in these religious forms, with their various spiritual moments, the evangelistic aspects and some other good ministration seen in many of them, there is a great problem in the churches today and it must be addressed. It is still true today that, “Except the Lord build the house they labour in vain that build it” (Psalm 127:1).

Many christians who gather today may seem to be rich and increased with goods and think they have need of nothing, but many are unaware that they are “wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind and naked” (Rev. 3:17). Jesus said these serious words to the Church of Laodicea, but he also said, “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come into him, and will sup with him and he with me” (Rev. 3:20). Jesus wants to dwell in the hearts of all those who will open to him and to “sup” with them, and to participate with them in the assembly as they gather. Without this participation of the Lord among the church they are in danger. Jesus said to the Laodicean church, “I will spue thee out of my mouth.” (Rev. 3:16). Similarly, all should consider this question, “is Jesus Christ standing outside knocking or is he in the midst being able to effectually work in believers as they assemble?”

For Christians to be able to function fully as the body of Christ, they need to withdraw from man’s order (2 Thess. 3:6, Rom. 16:17, Eph. 5:11) and walk in God’s order, even though this will be very hard for some.

The commands of the Lord in this order were spoken of by Paul to the Corinthians when he said “...when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying...Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted... If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.” (1 Cor. 14:26, 29-31, 37 emphasis mine).

Peter also spoke of this order and said, “As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” (1 Peter 4:10,11). If anyone neglects or hinders the ministration of the gifts from God to one another they will not be good stewards of the grace of God and they quench the spirit.

This one aspect alone is so different than most assemblies today, where all the body is stifled and silenced by the one man pastor ministry and the commands of men, with their programed order, where all are bound up and unable to freely edify one another. Instead they are drawn to the exalted man who does most of the ministry. This is wrong and needs to change.

Scripture speaks of a plurality of “elders in every church” (Acts 14:23). Never do we read of one man in the New Testament called “The Pastor” over all doing most of the ministry and getting a regular salary.

Furthermore, we read of the church gathering in homes and having a meal together as they wait on the Lord and ministered to one another, in prayer and fellowship. The institutional church structures today with their programs and clergy, have hindered many of these functions in the church.

In fact, when examining man’s order as opposed to God’s order we see that almost everything that is done today, from walking into a large building with a denominational name, called a “church”, and everything that is on man’s programed order, from the Pastor’s role over all that often quenches the spirit in others, to their “services” that do not allow the body to minister freely, with the pastors sermon, the pulpit, worship leaders, women leaders, false authority, collections, constitutional laws of man, ushers, theater type environment, salaried ministers, tithing, tax exemption rules, altars, rituals, exalted priest, the silent body ministry, show time religion, no consensus decisions and many more, are all based on the traditions of men and not after Christ.

A Wise Master Builder

God’s order was revealed to apostolic workers and also handed down to believers in scripture. Paul said that God made him a wise master builder (1 Cor. 3:10), to lay the foundation and to show God’s order for the churches. We see men like Timothy and Titus bringing others to remembrance of Paul’s ways in Christ (1 Cor. 4:17) and the order he handed down was for every church everywhere (1 Cor. 4:17, 1 Cor 14:33).

God’s Order in Scripture

“For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:” (Titus 1:5).

Here we see that Paul had a definite “order” for them to be in. The order Paul speaks of here was given by the command and leading of the Spirit and it was not by man’s order and wisdom, with programs and philosophies based upon traditions of men.

Paul often warned christians against following man’s traditions and order and to beware of anything that was not after Christ (Col. 2:8).

In writing to the Colossians Paul also said, “For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.” (Col. 2:5).

This “order” among the Colossian believers was a spiritual order and Paul was able to behold it in the spirit. This is God’s order, not man’s order and to walk in this order a person must be in faith and the leading of the Spirit. No man can make this happen in their lives or in the assembly, although many try to.

Paul wrote of how believers “ought” to behave in the church and said, “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15).

All believers should keep this order, “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” (2 Thess. 2:15).

Paul taught the same things “everywhere” and in “every church”. (1 Cor. 4:17). So are any churches today exempt? Why would any christian want to do anything different? “The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD...” (Psalm 37:23) This has always been God’s way.

True spiritual authority flows from Christ to the body as we all live and speak the word of God. Authroity is not a static position (Matt. 20:25-27), but only as we abide in Christ and are directed by Him (John 15:5)

(This is from a tract I wrote below)

I do agree with everything you’ve said here, and this is what I’ve been thinking the more and more I study the New Testament. There is a specific order to how the assembly of the Body of Christ should be and I agree it should take place in the homes of believers. My only problem is I have not found anyone who agrees, so are all believers just alone and scattered right now? Do you have an assembly of believers meeting up in your home currently? I feel called to have a biblical way of “church” in my home, but since all of the “believers” I know go to traditional churches it seems as if there is no one I could actually form this with and fellowship between the Body of Christ is just lost. I feel like fellowship is needed to build a strong faith because we all need to hold each other accountable, encourage each other, confess our sins to each other, and pray for each other, but I don’t see how this is possible in this day and age. Feeling really conflicted and not sure what to do.... my spouse and I read the Bible each day and are constantly trying to get close with Jesus and live in the Spirit but sometimes we slip and go back into fleshly ways whether it be getting into an argument or listening to a worldly song, does this mean we actually aren’t saved and the Holy Spirit does not dwell in us? You seem to know what you’re talking about so I’m curious in your opinion.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I do agree with everything you’ve said here, and this is what I’ve been thinking the more and more I study the New Testament. There is a specific order to how the assembly of the Body of Christ should be and I agree it should take place in the homes of believers. My only problem is I have not found anyone who agrees, so are all believers just alone and scattered right now? Do you have an assembly of believers meeting up in your home currently? I feel called to have a biblical way of “church” in my home, but since all of the “believers” I know go to traditional churches it seems as if there is no one I could actually form this with and fellowship between the Body of Christ is just lost. I feel like fellowship is needed to build a strong faith because we all need to hold each other accountable, encourage each other, confess our sins to each other, and pray for each other, but I don’t see how this is possible in this day and age. Feeling really conflicted and not sure what to do.... my spouse and I read the Bible each day and are constantly trying to get close with Jesus and live in the Spirit but sometimes we slip and go back into fleshly ways whether it be getting into an argument or listening to a worldly song, does this mean we actually aren’t saved and the Holy Spirit does not dwell in us? You seem to know what you’re talking about so I’m curious in your opinion.

Hello and God bless.

I helped to plant meetings in homes for a long time. We met in our home for about 18 years. And there were about 6 other home meetings all over. We had about 30 people on a good day gathering together. But about 400 people came through our home alone. I do itinerant work mostly now but I have been working with other believers in different locations. I helped to plant another home meeting in Niagra falls it went on for a while but there were some other issues that cane up eith the home we were in. I helped two more home meetings Toronto.

there are many issues to address in the home gatherings of the church. This is a long discussion and a valuable one. Issues of commitment, hospitality, doctrine, children, contentions, etc.
But we had wonderful meetings in our homes for many many years. It is possible in our modern world.
Start with prayer and use hospitality in your home or another’s. Meet even once a week to fellowship and study and have a meal together. From that learn to wait on the Lord.
It starts with finding one other person or family to gather with. At first it may seem just like a get together with another brother or sister. To have food and share but Lord willing it’s can grow into a body of believers waiting on the Lord and edifying each other.

God bless

I understand exactly where you are coming from.
But God’s will in this order is always possible as we walk in it

 

[Madelyn Grace]

My father recently asked me to meet up with him once a week to get together and read and study the Bible, he has considered himself a believer his whole life but he still lives a sinful life. I think he is willing to change and mature in his faith. Do you believe it’s okay for me to just start out with meeting with him and God will make it grow according to his will? Otherwise I don’t know anyone else who is willing.

Hello and God bless.

I helped to plant meetings in homes for a long time. We met in our home for about 18 years. And there were about 6 other home meetings all over. We had about 30 people on a good day gathering together. But about 400 people came through our home alone. I do itinerant work mostly now but I have been working with other believers in different locations. I helped to plant another home meeting in Niagra falls it went on for a while but there were some other issues that cane up eith the home we were in. I helped two more home meetings Toronto.

there are many issues to address in the home gatherings of the church. This is a long discussion and a valuable one. Issues of commitment, hospitality, doctrine, children, contentions, etc.
But we had wonderful meetings in our homes for many many years. It is possible in our modern world.
Start with prayer and use hospitality in your home or another’s. Meet even once a week to fellowship and study and have a meal together. From that learn to wait on the Lord.
It starts with finding one other person or family to gather with. At first it may seem just like a get together with another brother or sister. To have food and share but Lord willing it’s can grow into a body of believers waiting on the Lord and edifying each other.

God bless

I understand exactly where you are coming from.
But God’s will in this order is always possible as we walk in it

 

[LoveofTruth]

My father recently asked me to meet up with him once a week to get together and read and study the Bible, he has considered himself a believer his whole life but he still lives a sinful life. I think he is willing to change and mature in his faith. Do you believe it’s okay for me to just start out with meeting with him and God will make it grow according to his will? Otherwise I don’t know anyone else who is willing.

You can meet with him and talk evangelize etc and seek to help each other. But if he is in open rebellion and sin it will be difficult to have a church gathering and wait on the Lord.
Read 1 Corinthians 5 about some matters. But as far as trying to help and discuss biblical things in a type of restoration or evangelism that is ok.

 

[LoveofTruth]

My father recently asked me to meet up with him once a week to get together and read and study the Bible, he has considered himself a believer his whole life but he still lives a sinful life.

Yes, he is your father so studying the Bible is good and waiting on the Lird. Maybe the Lord will lead you to verses about having victory over sin. I found that when ever believers come together the first thing is to examine ourselves and to let the peace of God rule in our hearts. If we are not at peace with God and have unrepentant sin this will cause us to not hear right or have peace.

Consider this section

Colossians 3: 15. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 16. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.”

I think he is willing to change and mature in his faith.

This is good if he is willing. Seek the Lird while he may be found.

Sometimes we can meet with people that may not even profess Christ and this would be more an evangelism type if discussion. But believers need to be exhorted and built up lest any be hardened through the deceitful ness of sin.

Do you believe it’s okay for me to just start out with meeting with him and God will make it grow according to his will? Otherwise I don’t know anyone else who is willing.

God willing. Because he is your dad you can meet with him in a relationship way as your father. To meet as believers in Christ depends on the peace we have with God. Thee is also 1 Cor. 5 section as well to consider if a person continues in sin and won’t seek to change.

Sometimes you may meet sone outside of Christian fellowship unless they are in the peace of God.