God's nature and omnipotence?

[FireDragon76]

Is God capable of lying? I argued that he was, else he would not be omnipotent (after all, if we can do something God cannot, how is God really all that powerful?), and a Reformed gentleman seemed to suggest he was incapable of lying, and cited a verse from Hebrews to support it. I argued that Hebrews was antilegomena to us, and therefore doesn't set boundaries on God's omnipotence per se.

What do you all think? I think I am over my head. I just know from reading Lutheran theology, that we don't tend to speculate about God's nature all that much. We recognize that God is "bi-polar", that there are some things about God not clearly revealed.

Determinism, Compatibilism, Libertarian Free Will

Frankly, I am skeptical of much of traditional Christian apologetics, so that's why I do engage in a bit of a pointed objection sometimes. I believe in God because I believe in Jesus, and that he testifies to his Father. I don't believe in God because of some rationalistic system which creates a "worldview" that is irrefutable.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Is God capable of lying? I argued that he was, else he would not be omnipotent (after all, if we can do something God cannot, how is God really all that powerful?), and a Reformed gentleman seemed to suggest he was incapable of lying, and cited a verse from Hebrews to support it. I argued that Hebrews was antilegomena to us, and therefore doesn't set boundaries on God's omnipotence per se.

What do you all think? I think I am over my head. I just know from reading Lutheran theology, that we don't tend to speculate about God's nature all that much. We recognize that God is "bi-polar", that there are some things about God not clearly revealed.

Determinism, Compatibilism, Libertarian Free Will

Frankly, I am skeptical of much of traditional Christian apologetics, so that's why I do engage in a bit of a pointed objection sometimes. I believe in God because I believe in Jesus, and that he testifies to his Father. I don't believe in God because of some rationalistic system which creates a "worldview" that is irrefutable.

Greetings @FireDragon76 ,
This is certainly one strange thread.
It's called sin. That's what we can do that God can not do.
Blessings
FCJ

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There may be some Lutherans in Voice of theMartyrs or who get their newsletters and such.
They used to have a list of people in TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and NEW TESTAMENT (all or part) who lied, and Yahweh did not hold them responsible for it nor indicate it was a sin. (In Scripture)
This was important for them to know and to reveal to their supporters, since they daily lie to smuggle bibles into some countries, and so on as part of their daily work over many decades now.

There is likely a Hebrew word for "lie" inclusive of motive heart's intent which shows a difference from "lie" meant to deceive for wicked purposes, evil intent;
but I'm not sure. (may be just context).

Remember some (at least one) prophet of Yahweh lied, without guilt attributed.

 

[SkyWriting]

Is God capable of lying? I argued that he was, else he would not be omnipotent (after all, if we can do something God cannot, how is God really all that powerful?)

He cannot,
because there is no one who would know better.

 

[Serving Zion]

Is God capable of lying? I argued that he was, else he would not be omnipotent (after all, if we can do something God cannot, how is God really all that powerful?), and a Reformed gentleman seemed to suggest he was incapable of lying, and cited a verse from Hebrews to support it. I argued that Hebrews was antilegomena to us, and therefore doesn't set boundaries on God's omnipotence per se.

What do you all think? I think I am over my head. I just know from reading Lutheran theology, that we don't tend to speculate about God's nature all that much. We recognize that God is "bi-polar", that there are some things about God not clearly revealed.

Determinism, Compatibilism, Libertarian Free Will

Frankly, I am skeptical of much of traditional Christian apologetics, so that's why I do engage in a bit of a pointed objection sometimes. I believe in God because I believe in Jesus, and that he testifies to his Father. I don't believe in God because of some rationalistic system which creates a "worldview" that is irrefutable.

Could you please let me know if you find an example of God actually misleading someone that would constitute unrighteousness?

I already know that Ezekiel 14:9 and Jeremiah 4:10 states that Adonai is capable of deceiving, although in saying that, it does not necessarily constitute sin (consider Ezekiel 33:11, Jeremiah 23:30-32) - assume that lying is not necessarily sinful if the lie serves the purpose of upholding truth (eg: where society or a society's morals are wrong, eg: to hide and protect the life of an innocent from a genocidal regime).

I can think of one example of Adonai having deceived a man, and it shows that actually it wasn't Him who was doing the deception but it was an agent that first obtained His permission (1 Kings 22:19-23).

 

[FireDragon76]

Please keep in mind this is a Lutheran section.

 

[Resha Caner]

Frankly, I am skeptical of much of traditional Christian apologetics, so that's why I do engage in a bit of a pointed objection sometimes. I believe in God because I believe in Jesus, and that he testifies to his Father. I don't believe in God because of some rationalistic system which creates a "worldview" that is irrefutable.

Absolutely agree with this, so good for you. I don't know about you, but I struggled to get to this point. It's easy to wander away from it. I live in my head - in a world of thinking, so when God is silent it's too easy for me to start speculating and inventing my own answers to fill the void. The same thing can happen to those who experience life from an emotional perspective - where suddenly every tea leaf is a mysterious message from the spirits.

I just know from reading Lutheran theology, that we don't tend to speculate about God's nature all that much. We recognize that God is "bi-polar", that there are some things about God not clearly revealed.

I don't know what you mean by God being "bipolar" so I can't agree with that, but otherwise this is correct. It is one of the great beauties of Lutheran theology that it doesn't try to completely explain God. It's one of the few where, "I don't know" is considered a wise answer. That's also something that can take some time to appreciate.

Is God capable of lying? I argued that he was, else he would not be omnipotent (after all, if we can do something God cannot, how is God really all that powerful?), and a Reformed gentleman seemed to suggest he was incapable of lying, and cited a verse from Hebrews to support it. I argued that Hebrews was antilegomena to us, and therefore doesn't set boundaries on God's omnipotence per se.

But I can't agree with this at all. First, as one person pointed out, if God were lying there's no way for us to know it. For us to know God is lying would require us to know more than he does. In short, if we think God is lying, we are claiming we are a god and he is not.

Second, it is a misunderstanding of God's power. I've given up using "omni" terms for God because, first of all, they largely don't appear in Scripture, and second because they lead to absurd discussions like this. God's power does not entail absurdities and logical contradictions. It doesn't require the creation of rocks too heavy to lift, etc.

It may be there is a sense in which God can do anything, but that doesn't mean he does do everything. Trusting God means believing his promises. God promised to send the Christ, and if you believe that, it means there is no world, parallel universe, whatever where he didn't send the Christ. His faithfulness to that promise is the beginning of everything, and it all follows from there.

God is faithful to his promises, and I assume you agree with that. He promised not to flood the world again, to deliver the Hebrews from Pharaoh, to bring victory to David ... and he did. Likewise, he has promised (as best we can discern) that electrons will always have a negative charge, that gravity will always attract 2 masses, and that light will always travel at a constant speed in a vacuum. The entire structure of this universe is his promise to us. His faithfulness to all of that means he will never lie, and so there is really no point considering it. But even beyond that, because he is the creator of all that is, I would argue it makes lying a logical absurdity for God. Whatever he might happen to say or do, by the very nature of who he is, defines truth.

 

[FireDragon76]

That's more or less the point I was trying to get at. I trust in God because of his faithful covenants with humanity, as testified to in Jesus Christ.

 

[Beloved2018]

God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)

 

[Beloved2018]

That's more or less the point I was trying to get at. I trust in God because of his faithful covenants with humanity, as testified to in Jesus Christ.

There may be some Lutherans in Voice of theMartyrs or who get their newsletters and such.
They used to have a list of people in TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and NEW TESTAMENT (all or part) who lied, and Yahweh did not hold them responsible for it nor indicate it was a sin. (In Scripture)
This was important for them to know and to reveal to their supporters, since they daily lie to smuggle bibles into some countries, and so on as part of their daily work over many decades now.

There is likely a Hebrew word for "lie" inclusive of motive heart's intent which shows a difference from "lie" meant to deceive for wicked purposes, evil intent;
but I'm not sure. (may be just context).

Remember some (at least one) prophet of Yahweh lied, without guilt attributed.

I've always wondered about this.

 

[Beloved2018]

Could you please let me know if you find an example of God actually misleading someone that would constitute unrighteousness?

I already know that Ezekiel 14:9 and Jeremiah 4:10 states that Adonai is capable of deceiving, although in saying that, it does not necessarily constitute sin (consider Ezekiel 33:11, Jeremiah 23:30-32) - assume that lying is not necessarily sinful if the lie serves the purpose of upholding truth (eg: where society or a society's morals are wrong, eg: to hide and protect the life of an innocent from a genocidal regime).

I can think of one example of Adonai having deceived a man, and it shows that actually it wasn't Him who was doing the deception but it was an agent that first obtained His permission (1 Kings 22:19-23).

Not to derail the thread, but I have a question. Wouldn't this be an ends justifying the means sorta thing? I've wondered about this for awhile.

 

[SkyWriting]

But I can't agree with this at all. First, as one person pointed out, if God were lying there's no way for us to know it. For us to know God is lying would require us to know more than he does. In short, if we think God is lying, we are claiming we are a god and he is not.

Plus, God has no reason to deceive.
If you create the truth, you might as
well stand behind all you have done.

 

[Serving Zion]

Not to derail the thread, but I have a question. Wouldn't this be an ends justifying the means sorta thing? I've wondered about this for awhile.

It makes me wonder whether any decision is not practically a "means to an end". This thread is more about the morality of such an investment into deceit. For God to remain holy and righteous (characteristics essential to being everlasting wisdom and strength), He would need to leverage deceit in such way that is morally irreprehensible (1 Corinthians 3:19-20). So then, if deceit is useful for catching the wicked by their own schemes and in so doing is found to be an act of righteousness - who could possibly take issue with Him for doing so?

 

[Beloved2018]

It makes me wonder whether any decision is not practically a "means to an end". This thread is more about the morality of such an investment into deceit. For God to remain holy and righteous (characteristics essential to being everlasting wisdom and strength), He would need to leverage deceit in such way that is morally irreprehensible (1 Corinthians 3:19-20). So then, if deceit is useful for catching the wicked by their own schemes and in so doing is found to be an act of righteousness - who could possibly take issue with Him for doing so?

Then we would have to conclude that deceit is not always sinful. Right?

 

[Serving Zion]

Then we would have to conclude that deceit is not always sinful. Right?

.. It doesn't sound quite right to make that statement, it would naturally seem to clash with 1 John 1:5, for instance.

In #post 5 I had asked OP to let me know if he could find an example where God had deceived someone unrighteously. I gave an example of deceit issued by Him to destroy a wicked king, yet the deceit was not His idea or working.. It was only permitted by Him.

James 1:13-15 suggests that only a man's sin can empower deceit.

1 Corinthians 3:19-20 indicates that it is only possible for God to deceive righteously because the one being deceived is himself choosing deceit. (John 3:19-21).

So until I have seen an example of God having deceived a man, especially of His own volition, I would rather reinforce that God's judgement sometimes does not rule deceit as being sin .. Or, even if it is in fact sin, then some other parameters can exist whereby it is counted as righteousness in those circumstances (eg: Psalms 32:1-2).

 

[Beloved2018]

.. It doesn't sound quite right to make that statement, it would naturally seem to clash with 1 John 1:5, for instance.

Agreed.

In #post 5 I had asked OP to let me know if he could find an example where God had deceived someone unrighteously. I gave an example of deceit issued by Him to destroy a wicked king, yet the deceit was not His idea or working.. It was only permitted by Him.
James 1:13-15 suggests that only a man's sin can empower deceit.

Yep.

1 Corinthians 3:19-20 indicates that it is only possible for God to deceive righteously because the one being deceived is himself choosing deceit. (John 3:19-21).

I'm going to have to ponder this for a bit.

So until I have seen an example of God having deceived a man, especially of His own volition, I would rather reinforce that God's judgement sometimes does not rule deceit as being sin .. Or, even if it is in fact sin, then some other parameters can exist whereby it is counted as righteousness in those circumstances (eg: Psalms 32:1-2).

A little confused (not the first time this week lol). How is, "God's judgement sometimes does not rule deceit as being sin" different from, "we would have to conclude that deceit is not always sinful" (?)

 

[Serving Zion]

A little confused (not the first time this week lol). How is, "God's judgement sometimes does not rule deceit as being sin" different from, "we would have to conclude that deceit is not always sinful" (?)

Only in the way it could come across to a reader, especially in context of the OP title "God's nature and omnipotence".

The former explicitly states that God judges the righteousness of someone working deceit, whereas the latter would easily carry the implied meaning that God Himself is capable of doing deceit without it being sinful.

Sin is always judged according to culpability, therefore individual knowledge of morality directly impacts the reasonable expectation. So for God, who is perfect, His righteousness must be absolutely flawless.

So far as deceit is to intentionally lead someone to believe falsely, I have not seen example that shows it is a thing that God can righteously do (Romans 1:20-21, John 1:4, John 1:10, Titus 1:2, James 1:5).

That is the only reason I added explanation, in case a spectator might be easily led to think wrongly of His holiness owing to their lesser knowledge of His nature.

 

[Beloved2018]

Only in the way it could come across to a reader, especially in context of the OP title "God's nature and omnipotence".

The former explicitly states that God judges the righteousness of someone working deceit, whereas the latter would easily carry the implied meaning that God Himself is capable of doing deceit without it being sinful.

Sin is always judged according to culpability, therefore individual knowledge of morality directly impacts the reasonable expectation. So for God, who is perfect, His righteousness must be absolutely flawless.

So far as deceit is to intentionally lead someone to believe falsely, I have not seen example that shows it is a thing that God can righteously do (Romans 1:20-21, John 1:4, John 1:10, Titus 1:2, James 1:5).

That is the only reason I added explanation, in case a spectator might be easily led to think wrongly of His holiness owing to their lesser knowledge of His nature.

Ah..I see! Thanks for catching that then!