God's Law vs. man's law

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If Christians are in a position to change the laws of a state in a way that reflects the laws of God, then they should do it.
They aren't to be trusted with that power in that case.
 
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Introverted1293

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If Christians are in a position to change the laws of a state in a way that reflects the laws of God, then they should do it. Our laws already try to govern morality but it is man-made morality, while the morality of God is superior. The laws of Israel applied to the non-Jews when they were residing in the land so I don't really see a problem with it. They should not be forced to go to church or pray but they should follow the moral laws which God gave to govern a society.

I agree to a point.

If they started jailing people with certain sinful lifestyles. There will be a lot of protests. There would be a rebellion that probably would never see before.

But if we try to put rules that reflect the laws of God, how far do we go? I mean in the Bible it does say that certain types of lifestyles are an abomination to God, and I do not question that because I do believe that scripture is the word of God. But it also says that gossip is an abomination to God, and lying is an abomination to God.

Do we start making laws concerning gossiping and lying as well?

I mean, these are the kind of arguments that I heard, and they make a sense to me.

I do like the idea of being able to choose. Although my reason for wanting to obey God is out of fear of God's wrath. But that's a different topic.
 
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quatona

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This topic has been coming up quite often, so I'd like to give my perspective on it.

I do my best to obey God's Law in my personal life, but I disagree with trying to force it on others. In a secular nation, there are secular laws that apply to everyone, but religious laws should not apply to people who don't follow those religions. After all, isn't attempting to force God's standards on everyone sort of like playing God? We should leave it up to Him.

People will be punished for violating man's law in this life, and they will be punished for violating God's Law in the afterlife.

Now I'm not saying don't attempt to convince people to stop sinning or don't try to witness to them, but if they are clearly not listening, using the government to force it onto them isn't the right way to go about things. It's up to God to deal with.

Romans 12:19

Matthew 10:14
One would think that God´s laws are reasonable. If that´s the case, there should be no problem trying to convince non-believers to implement these laws into societal laws - without invoking religion.
However, if you work from the asumption that they are or may be unreasonable, I can see your problem.
 
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football5680

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I agree to a point.

If they started jailing people with certain sinful lifestyles. There will be a lot of protests. There would be a rebellion that probably would never see before.
Initially I think it would be good to take things slow. The state should establish laws that promote Christian morality but the penalties can be lenient to begin with.

But if we try to put rules that reflect the laws of God, how far do we go? I mean in the Bible it does say that certain types of lifestyles are an abomination to God, and I do not question that because I do believe that scripture is the word of God. But it also says that gossip is an abomination to God, and lying is an abomination to God.

Do we start making laws concerning gossiping and lying as well?
I think the state should focus on bigger picture issues while things like lying and gossip should be handled within a community. This is what the Bible says to do and ideally people could work their problems out without state intervention.
 
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Strathos

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One would think that God´s laws are reasonable. If that´s the case, there should be no problem trying to convince non-believers to implement these laws into societal laws - without invoking religion.
However, if you work from the asumption that they are or may be unreasonable, I can see your problem.

Different people and cultures have different ideas of what constitutes "reasonable".
 
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quatona

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Different people and cultures have different ideas of what constitutes "reasonable".
Yes. That´s why there are meta-discussions regarding these concepts.
Then again, nobody will be impressed if you don´t even try to explain how and why you regard a certain idea reasonable. That´s why "my God says so" won´t get you very far. I suspect that you aren´t terribly impressed with a non-Christian theist appealing to their God as an authority - correct me if I am wrong.
 
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Introverted1293

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Initially I think it would be good to take things slow. The state should establish laws that promote Christian morality but the penalties can be lenient to begin with.


I think the state should focus on bigger picture issues while things like lying and gossip should be handled within a community. This is what the Bible says to do and ideally people could work their problems out without state intervention.

Oh okay

That makes sense. I get it
 
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Dave-W

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Although my reason for wanting to obey God is out of fear of God's wrath. But that's a different topic.
I do not consider that a valid reason for obedience. The reason is that if you remove the punishment, there is no reason for obedience. It is NOT honoring God as God, or obeying out of love.
 
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Dave-W

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One would think that God´s laws are reasonable. If that´s the case, there should be no problem trying to convince non-believers to implement these laws into societal laws - without invoking religion.
However, if you work from the asumption that they are or may be unreasonable, I can see your problem.
Many of His laws/rules/instructions make a LOT of sense. But there are also those that do not; at least from any human viewpoint.

Some of the latter are to set us (His people) apart visibly from everyone else.
 
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quatona

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Many of His laws/rules/instructions make a LOT of sense.
Good - then we can discuss them without an appeal to God´s or the bible´s authority.
But there are also those that do not; at least from any human viewpoint.
Some of the latter are to set us (His people) apart visibly from everyone else.
No problem - as long as they don´t require you to violate reasonable secular laws.
 
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Sketcher

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I'm not a theocrat, the New Testament has no instructions to set up a theocracy.

On issues of personhood though, I believe legal protection should go to everyone that the Scriptures ascribe humanity to. If there is a class of people without this protection, that is unjust. We did this for slaves when we freed them. We should do this for the unborn now.
 
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Soyeong

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Many of His laws/rules/instructions make a LOT of sense. But there are also those that do not; at least from any human viewpoint.

Some of the latter are to set us (His people) apart visibly from everyone else.

God's Law invites us to ponder why God commanded them, and if there are some that don't make sense to us, then obeying them become a matter of having faith in God when He said that what He commanded is for our own good. If they are commanded for our own good, then they are not just to make us jump through hoops to set us apart. Holiness is not about being set apart for its own sake, but about being set apart for a specific purpose.
 
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Soyeong

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I do like the idea of being able to choose. Although my reason for wanting to obey God is out of fear of God's wrath. But that's a different topic.

From the beginning with God walking with Adam in the Garden, God has always wanted a relationship with us, and the whole point of God's commands is to teach us how to grow in a relationship with Him based on faith and love. God has always disdained it when His people outwardly obeyed His commands while inwardly their hearts were far from Him because that is again missing the whole point of His commands. Obeying God because we fear being punished is likewise missing the point. There is a type of fear of being separated from someone who is holy, righteous, good, just, powerful, and unsafe, and a type of fear of being close to someone who is unholy, unrighteous, evil, unjust, powerful, and unsafe, and the type of fear of God that is the beginning of wisdom is the first type. Hell is separation from God and our fear of being separated from God should drive us to follow His instructions for how to draw near to Him and to grow into a deeper relationship with Him.
 
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Introverted1293

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From the beginning with God walking with Adam in the Garden, God has always wanted a relationship with us, and the whole point of God's commands is to teach us how to grow in a relationship with Him based on faith and love. God has always disdained it when His people outwardly obeyed His commands while inwardly their hearts were far from Him because that is again missing the whole point of His commands. Obeying God because we fear being punished is likewise missing the point. There is a type of fear of being separated from someone who is holy, righteous, good, just, powerful, and unsafe, and a type of fear of being close to someone who is unholy, unrighteous, evil, unjust, powerful, and unsafe, and the type of fear of God that is the beginning of wisdom is the first type. Hell is separation from God and our fear of being separated from God should drive us to follow His instructions for how to draw near to Him and to grow into a deeper relationship with Him.

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't think that fearing God's wrath is going to cause my heart to be far from him. If that's how you feel then there's nothing I can do about that. But I believe that the fear of God is good. I actually love the fear of the Lord. But I don't think that I can make it into heaven by mere performance. It is the fear of God's wrath that causes me to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus.

I believe that man is evil and that man is Worthy of death. No matter how they perform. But it is because of the fear of God's wrath that I believe in the son of man, or the son of God.

Now I know that believers all have different interpretation of what scripture means. But in revelations you see angels warning people of the wrath of God and you also see Paul warning people of the wrath of God. Paul even said that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God.

I do disagree that it is a wrong motivation to obey him out of fear. I believe that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Now, I know a lot of Christians say that that just means a reverence for him, but again, I don't believe that fear is redefined. I believe in what it says, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And the fear it is talking, about which I believe it is, is the trembling, scary feeling that you get.

But I respect your opinions.
 
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Introverted1293

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From the beginning with God walking with Adam in the Garden, God has always wanted a relationship with us, and the whole point of God's commands is to teach us how to grow in a relationship with Him based on faith and love. God has always disdained it when His people outwardly obeyed His commands while inwardly their hearts were far from Him because that is again missing the whole point of His commands. Obeying God because we fear being punished is likewise missing the point. There is a type of fear of being separated from someone who is holy, righteous, good, just, powerful, and unsafe, and a type of fear of being close to someone who is unholy, unrighteous, evil, unjust, powerful, and unsafe, and the type of fear of God that is the beginning of wisdom is the first type. Hell is separation from God and our fear of being separated from God should drive us to follow His instructions for how to draw near to Him and to grow into a deeper relationship with Him.

After I wrote what I wrote, I kind of felt really bad. I know that I am not supposed to lean on my own understanding. But my fear of God's wrath could be just my misunderstanding of God. I have been calling myself a Christian for years. But I was in sin. I have been living a life of pleasure. And I am now just starting to seek him.

When somebody tells me that I have a wrong motivation, I get very defensive. But the truth is may be believers know what they're talking about. I don't know how to work up the right motivation for obeying God, or I should say my reason for wanting to obey God. I sound like I'm saying that I am perfect and thats not what I ment to say. I still struggle with sin. And yes, I fail quite a bit, but my reason for wanting to stop is the fear of God's wrath.

So I apologize for my arrogance and thinking that I know it all.

I don't consider myself a Christian, therefore I don't go to church. I have to figure these things out myself, and sometimes it brings our arrogance in me.
 
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Soyeong

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Well, we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't think that fearing God's wrath is going to cause my heart to be far from him. If that's how you feel then there's nothing I can do about that. But I believe that the fear of God is good. I actually love the fear of the Lord. But I don't think that I can make it into heaven by mere performance. It is the fear of God's wrath that causes me to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus.

I believe that man is evil and that man is Worthy of death. No matter how they perform. But it is because of the fear of God's wrath that I believe in the son of man, or the son of God.

Now I know that believers all have different interpretation of what scripture means. But in revelations you see angels warning people of the wrath of God and you also see Paul warning people of the wrath of God. Paul even said that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God.

I do disagree that it is a wrong motivation to obey him out of fear. I believe that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Now, I know a lot of Christians say that that just means a reverence for him, but again, I don't believe that fear is redefined. I believe in what it says, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And the fear it is talking, about which I believe it is, is the trembling, scary feeling that you get.

But I respect your opinions.

Sorry if I was not clear. I did not say that fearing God's wrath is going to cause your heart to be far from him, but that our obedience needs to be out of desire for our hearts to grow close to God because everything in the Bible is about how to grow in a relationship with God. Someone who outwardly obeyed God's commands purely out of a desire to not be punished and not out of a desire to grow close to God would be missing the point of God's commands.

I also did not say that fear of God is bad, but rather I specified that the fear of God that we need to have is a fear of being separated from Him. God is a loving Father who is not out there waiting for His children to mess up so that He can punish us, but rather He desires to bless us and for us to be people that He can bless. We should desire not to be separated from the blessing of God.

I also did not say that we can make it into have by mere performance. The one and only way that there has ever been to become justified is by faith and by the same faith we are required to be careful to obey all of God's commands. I also agree that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

I also did not say that it is wrong to obey God out of fear, but again it is a fear of being separated from God rather than a fear of being punished. I also agree that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and can include trembling, but it is the fear of being separated from God that is the beginning of wisdom, not the fear that God will punish us if we mess up.
 
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