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GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by LoveGodsWord, May 10, 2018.

  1. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    The point is God continually judges nations, and carries out His judgments long before the final judgment.

    And in this vision we have Him still passing over the three nations, not destroying them yet. And He does destroy the fourth.
    No, you added to the text the element that God was discerning the little horn from the saints. The text does not say that.


    So then let's be clear. Are you saying the judgment of Daniel 7 is the same judgment as chapter 20?

    So you do not see the fourth kingdom being destroyed? It says it is.

    Judgment on nations happens throughout history. And here God does kill the fourth beast, but not the others.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  2. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    At the center of the Seventh-day Adventist sanctuary teaching is the reference to the cleansing of the sanctuary in Daniel 8:14.

    Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    In this text Adventists have seen a clear reference to the Day of Atonement cleansing of the sins of professed people of God. And it is from this prophecy that they derive the year 1844 as the beginning of this Day of Atonement ministry.

    However, throughout the history of the Adventist church many of those who preached this sanctuary teaching have come to find a problem with the Adventist interpretation of Daniel 8:14. Or more to the point, they have found that, when looked at in context, Daniel 8:14 is not speaking about a Day of Atonement cleansing at all.

    Here is the context leading up to Daniel 8:14:

    Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.
    Dan 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.
    Dan 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
    Dan 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
    Dan 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
    Dan 8:6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
    Dan 8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
    Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.


    This part of the vision is explained later by Gabriel. He indicates that the ram represents the Medes and Persians, and the he goat represents the (Macedonian) Greek empire. From history we recognize the great horn as Alexander the great, the Macedonian conqueror. After his fall his kingdom was split up. Here is the explanation:

    Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
    Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
    Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.


    After Daniel 8:8 the theme turns from the Medes and Persians and Greek mpires to the activities of a different power--the little horn.

    The identity of the little horn is debated among various scholars. For now it doesn't even matter who that little horn power is. For the sake of argument we can even say it represents Rome, in its pagan and papal phases, as a number of Adventists believe.

    Here is what the chapter says about that little horn power:

    Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
    Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
    Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
    Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.


    Again, the particulars of this passage have been debated. What is clear however, is that this little horn power is acting against God's sanctuary, causing the continual or daily ministration to be taken away.

    For the sake of examining the context, the definition of the daily is not the issue. The point is that the chapter deals with the activities of the little horn against the sanctuary.

    With that background in mind Daniel 8:13 asks an important question. And Daniel 8:14, our key text, is the answer to that question.

    Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    In other words, how long until the activities of the little horn power against God's sanctuary are stopped? How long will it go on?

    Now note that Daniel 14 is not speaking at all about the sins of God's people stored in the sanctuary. It is answering the question regarding the activities of the little horn power.

    Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    The sanctuary will be cleansed from what? From the activities of the little horn power.

    The whole chapter is about the little horn, not about the sins of God's people. Adventists pull this verse completely out of its context to try to make it say something it is not saying.

    This fact was essentially admitted in the October 1980 special edition of Ministry magazine. (For those not aware Ministry magazine is publication by the Seventh-day Adventist church written for Adventist and non-Adventist clergy).

    This special edition included the documents from the Glacier View trial of the ideas of Desmond Ford. Ford was an Adventist minister and teacher who had questioned aspects of the Seventh-day Adventist sanctuary teaching.

    The denominational scholars and administrative leaders gathered together to re-examine the sanctuary doctrine and Ford's objections to it. You can read the entire issue online in Ministry magazine's archives.

    Part of this issue is the official report entitled "Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary."

    It contains the following fascinating statement:

    According to many older versions of the Bible, at the end of the 2300 days the sanctuary is to be "cleansed." The Hebrew word here is nisdaq, which has a broad range of possible meanings. Its basic idea is "make right," "justify," "vindicate," or "restore"; but "purify" and "cleanse" may be included within its conceptual range. In Daniel 8:14 it is evident that the word denotes the reversal of the evil caused by the power symbolized by the "little horn," and hence probably should be translated "restore." While there is, therefore, not a strong verbal link between this verse and the Day of Atonement ritual of Leviticus 16, the passages are, nevertheless, related by their parallel ideas of rectifying the sanctuary from the effects of sin.

    So here some of the foremost scholars in the Adventist church admit that in Daniel 8 the sanctuary restoration is from the activities of the little horn power. The "cleansing" or restoration is a specific one, with regard to the defilement caused by the little horn. It is not an investigation of all professed believers of God to see if they have repented. That notion is completely foreign to the context. They even specify that there is no "strong verbal link" in the terminology to the Day of Atonement ritual. In other words, the term for cleanse itself is not directly tied to the Day of Atonement service. They note that cleansing the sanctuary from the defilement of the little horn, and cleansing it from sin on the Day of Atonement are parallel ideas, as both relate to rectifying the sanctuary from the effects of sin. But that is where the similarities stop. The blood of Jesus cleansing the sanctuary by atonement is not the same as removing defiling elements brought in by the little horn power.

    It is clear then that there is not strong basis for claiming that the verse is speaking of the Day of Atonement from context, or based on terminology alone. Some, however, point to allusions to the Day of Atonement in the elements of the vision itself. In other words, the animals of the ram and the goat are references to the Day of Atonement service.

    It is true that goats certainly play a key role in the service:

    Lev 16:7 Then he shall take the two goats and set them before the LORD at the entrance of the tent of meeting.
    Lev 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots over the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for Azazel.
    Lev 16:9 And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the LORD and use it as a sin offering,
    Lev 16:10 but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.


    And it is likewise true that a Ram plays a part in the service:

    Lev 16:3 But in this way Aaron shall come into the Holy Place: with a bull from the herd for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering.

    However, similar animals are not enough to show a Day of Atonement context when the rest of the passage speaks of other themes. And while there are references to a ram and to goats in the Day of Atonement service, there is another scriptural parallel involving rams and goats that is even closer.

    In the time of Hezekiah the sanctuary had to be cleansed from defiling influences. This was not a Day of Atonement cleansing, but cleansing from outside defilement.


    2Ch 29:3 He in the first year of his reign, in the first month, opened the doors of the house of the LORD, and repaired them.
    2Ch 29:4 And he brought in the priests and the Levites, and gathered them together into the east street,
    2Ch 29:5 And said unto them, Hear me, ye Levites, sanctify now yourselves, and sanctify the house of the LORD God of your fathers, and carry forth the filthiness out of the holy place.
    2Ch 29:6 For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.
    2Ch 29:7 Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.

    Further description of this cleansing is given later in the chapter:

    2Ch 29:16 And the priests went into the inner part of the house of the LORD, to cleanse it, and brought out all the uncleanness that they found in the temple of the LORD into the court of the house of the LORD. And the Levites took it, to carry it out abroad into the brook Kidron.
    2Ch 29:17 Now they began on the first day of the first month to sanctify, and on the eighth day of the month came they to the porch of the LORD: so they sanctified the house of the LORD in eight days; and in the sixteenth day of the first month they made an end.
    2Ch 29:18 Then they went in to Hezekiah the king, and said, We have cleansed all the house of the LORD, and the altar of burnt offering, with all the vessels thereof, and the shewbread table, with all the vessels thereof.
    2Ch 29:19 Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his transgression, have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the LORD.


    As part of this cleansing there was a sin offering presented. It included seven rams ans seven goats.

    2Ch 29:21 And they brought seven bullocks, and seven rams, and seven lambs, and seven he goats, for a sin offering for the kingdom, and for the sanctuary, and for Judah. And he commanded the priests the sons of Aaron to offer them on the altar of the LORD.

    This passage describes the restoration of the temple after a time where it had been abandoned and foreign items were put in it that polluted it. These were likely idols, since they had turned away from God.

    This cleansing from outside influences is a much closer parallel to the context of Daniel 8, and the animals involved, rams and goats, play a larger role in this service. So we cannot conclude merely from the animals used in the vision that Daniel 8 is speaking of the Day of Atonement cleansing.

    Looking at all the evidence there is no direct connection to the Day of Atonement in Daniel 8. It is describing the cleansing from the activities of the little horn, not the Day of Atonement.
     
  3. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Someone is stuck in scholars rather the Bible [KJB] study.
     
  4. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    Oh, you mean like Ellen White, right?

    In His word, God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience. "Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16, 17, R.V.
    Introduction, Great Controversy

    It is strange she used that Revised Version, based on scholars.

    Oh well, I guess she just didn't understand that the KJB is God's word in English.
     
  5. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Venomous still and not desirous of understanding.
     
  6. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    Oh, it is venomous to question Ellen White?

    But surely your critique would apply to her use of the RV.
     
  7. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    Raymond Cottrell relates that Adventist scholars couldn't find the link between the Day of Atonement and Daniel 8:14.

    In the April, 1980 Spectrum Magazine, he recalls a time a number of years before, after the editing of the Bible Commentaries, that he sent a survey to various Adventist scholars. He was working on the new version of Bible Readings:

    While editing Bible Readings, and in counsel with Elder Nichol as chief editor of the revision, I wrote to 27 leading Adventist Bible scholars for their response to a series of six carefully formulated questions designed to bring the best contemporary Adventist biblical scholarship to bear on the question. All 27 responded, many at considerable length.A careful analysis and synthesis of their replies provided no additional help with respect to the problems arising from our interpretation of Daniel 8:14, and made evident that we had no satisfactory answer to the criticisms being directed against our interpretation of this key Adventist passage. Thirteen replied that they knew of no other valid basis for making such an application; seven based it on analogy; five, on the authority of Ellen White; two, on what they referred to as a “fortunate accident” in translation. Not one of the 27 believed that there was a linguistic or contextual basis for applying Daniel 8:14 to the heavenly sanctuary, an antitypical day of atonement, or 1844.
     
  8. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    See, this proves what I said about "literally foaming at the mouth", about sister White. They cannot help themselves. Try to have a discussion with ex-SDA about the Bible and matters therein, and all they do is go off ...
     
  9. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    I think we see now why we cannot accept "scholars" or "context", etc. The Adventist Scholars at the time of Cottrell, or Ford, couldn't find the Day of Atonement in Daniel 8.
     
  10. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    I actually don't fault Ellen White for using the RV. You are the one insisting on the KJB. I don't think she did anything wrong by using the RV. I am just waiting for your explanation.

    And I have posted quite a bit on the Bible, even using the KJB, and the Greek. But you took issue with that too.
     
  11. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    After Cottrell sent out the survey to Adventist scholars, and received the response, it led to the formation of the closed Committee on Problems in Daniel.


    October 1980 Ministry magazine, in reviewing the Ford situation, makes passing reference to the "confidential" Daniel Committee that looked into issues in Daniel. Here is Spangler characterizing the speech of Wilson:



    He included in his remarks a brief background of the Daniel Committee,
    which had been appointed by the General Conference back in 1961. Surviving members of that committee had been invited to attend the present review committee. A report of the Daniel Committee had been given to the General Conference officers in 1966 and placed in a confidential file. Pastor Wilson stated that he had read this report himself for the first time eight months ago. He pointed out that although some had questioned why the report was not made available, it had been felt best not to do so because it was not a unanimous report and therefore to release it would not be in the interest of unity.
     
  12. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    D.M. Canright, Ballenger, Cottrell and Ford, Rea, Sequeira, Wynne, Dale, Kelly, Walter Martin, Barnhouse, etc, etc., are easily refuted [and dealt with in the videos below, later presentations for them specifically]. It's been done to death, and been done for years, and ignored for years. Nothing new under the sun, and most of it from DM Canright's original claims, and even refuted by DM Canright himself. Read them all, watched them all, heard them all, ec. They refused to do the same.

    THE LOUD CRY, Revelation 14:6-12; 18:1-24

    Why you need to do your own research, instead of believing the distortions of critics and ex-SDA [documented]:
    Adventist Defense League

    Sister White, and the false accusers:
    Ellen G. White

    The Sanctuary Service by M. L. Andreasen:
    http://www.empowermissions.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/The-Sanctuary-Service-by-M.L-Andreasen.pdf

    DM Canright, the Man Who Boarded the Phantom Ship:
    http://www.ellenwhitedefend.com/Defense/Canright.pdf

    School of the Prophets, Lesson 01; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:


    School of the Prophets, Lesson 02; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:


    School of the Prophets, Lesson 03; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:


    School of the Prophets, Lesson 04; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:


    School of the Prophets, Lesson 05; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:


    School of the Prophets, Lesson 06; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:
    School of the Prophets - Lesson 6 - Jeremiah Davis

    School of the Prophets, Lesson 07; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:
    School of the Prophets - Lesson 7 - Moses Mason

    School of the Prophets, Lesson 08; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:
    School of the Prophets - Lesson 8 - Jeremiah Davis

    School of the Prophets, Lesson 09; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:
    School of the Prophets - Lesson 9 - Moses Mason

    School of the Prophets, Lesson 10; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:
    School of the Prophets - Lesson 10 - Jeremiah Davis

    School of the Prophets, Lesson 11; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:
    School of the Prophets - Lesson 11 - Moses Mason

    School of the Prophets, Lesson 12; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:
    School of the Prophets - Lesson 12 - Jeremiah Davis

    School of the Prophets, Lesson 13; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:
    School of the Prophets - Lesson 13 - Moses Mason

    School of the Prophets, Lesson 14; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:
    School of the Prophets - Lesson 14 - Jeremiah Davis

    School of the Prophets, Lesson 15; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:
    School of the Prophets - Lesson 15 - Moses Mason

    School of the Prophets, Lesson 16; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:
    School of the Prophets - Lesson 16 - Jeremiah Davis

    School of the Prophets, Lesson 17; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:
    School of the Prophets - Lesson 17 - Moses Mason

    School of the Prophets, Lesson 18; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:
    School of the Prophets - Lesson 18 - Jeremiah Davis

    School of the Prophets, Lesson 19; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YIwaP79NiM

    School of the Prophets, Lesson 20; Jeremiah Davis and Moses Mason [late]:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Z4NQ25bvk
     
  13. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    On the matter of the Bible [KJB, common version]

    “... My brethren in the Lord, I am instructed to say that you must raise the standard of piety and truth and holiness higher, still higher. Compare [171] scripture with scripture. Encourage the people to study their Bibles. Nearly all have the common version, and the words are so simple and plain that all who read may understand. Let the Scriptures be read freely in the family and in the pulpit. The men who wrote the books of the Bible were inspired of God, and the words of Holy Writ are for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. {20MR 170.5} ...” - Manuscripts Release Volume 20, page 170.5

    “... According to Valentine, who bases his information on a letter written by A. O. Tait, editor of the "Signs", to W A Spicer (November 25, 1929), it seems that revised versions had been inserted in some of her writings without permission. According to Tait, he had personally heard G B Starr tell of an alleged conversation with Sister White on the matter of her use of the Revised Version. She is recorded as saying that she would like to know who was responsible for the Revised Versions being used in her later writings. And again, she had never given authority for anything of that sort ("The Shaping of Adventism", p.270). ...” - Dismantling SDA, page 23, by H. H. Meyers.

    "... We must never lose sight of the fact that of all the boasted MSS to which the Revisers had access, it matters little how many they had, since they used only one out of 100 and brushed the 99 aside, because they did not agree with their two prized manuscripts, the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.

    While Sister White quoted from a number of texts with slight verbal changes in translation in the English and American Revised, the Noyes, the Rotherham, and the Leeser Version, yet she never quoted the contradictory changes brought in by the Vatican and Sinaitic MSS, the Westcott and Hort text based on them, or the Revised readings that widely change or omit so many important scriptures.

    She never endorses those changes or omissions, but quoting them, as in the AV and quoting texts omitted or discarded in the Revised, she thus absolutely denies and contradicts the authority of the Revised Version, and demonstrates that it is not the complete and authorized word of God.

    She states that the manuscripts and texts that the Waldenses preserved as the Word of God were "uncorrupted" and-"Unadulterated." Then how can we need a new revised text? The Received Text was the text from which Luther translated his Bible into German, which was the heart of the Reformation power; the text from which Tyndale translated his English Bible, the divine truth for which he died a martyr's death; the text from which our Authorized Version came to bless and build up the most enlightened nations from whence liberty and truth have gone out to all the world, and to be the foundation, the source of power of this last great Message.

    How can you reconcile the fact that Sister White quotes verses of Scripture as the Word of God which the Revisers reject as spurious; and that she quotes verses from the Authorized Version which the ARV changes so as to entirely alter the sense? And how can you justify the Reviewers aligning themselves uniformily on the side of the Revisers on these very passages rather than with Sister White? Whenever you find me defending a body of Revisers and bolstering up their revised readings against the plain usage of Sister White, I will accept the charge. I reject this charge and appeal to the field for vindication. Because every Seventh-day Adventist who has ever known me in Europe or America for these past forty years knows that no one amongst us has held up Sister White and her writings in higher esteem than I do. ..." - Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, Answers to Objections, by Benjamin G, Wlikenson, page 65 [PDF]

    “... [page 21] 42. There are five, if not six reasons why I, from the Spirit of Prophecy, believe that the AV is the authoritative Word of God in English:

    (1) Because Sister White says that the Waldenses, not the proud hierarchy of Rome, were the guardians of the Word of Truth. Since Rome, and Rome only, was the guardian of the Vaticanus and S.inaiticus, this statement rules out the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus or the Greek Bible guarded by the Papacy.

    (2) She says that the Latin Bible (the Vulgate contained many errors. This rules out the Latin Bible of the Papacy.

    (3) She further says that the Bible of the Waldenses was entire, was of apostolic origin, and kept uncorrupted through the ages. We know that this must be the Old Latin, which never bowed the knee to Rome, or to the Vulgate. Since the Textus Receptus type of Latin and the Vaticanus type were rivals, the Bible of the Waldenses was the Textus Receptus.

    (4) Sister White endorsed the Textus Receptus or Erasmus as...

    (a) Correcting errors of Vulgate. [page 21-22]

    (b) Giving us a Bible that had clearer sense

    (c) Giving new impetus to the work of reform (the reformation).

    (d) As completing, through Tyndale, the giving of the Bible to England. (Great Controversy) p. 245
    (5) She said that the gospel received by the Britons in the first centuries was then uncorrupted by Romish apostasy. This again was the Old Latin or Textus Receptus type.

    (6) Sister White in her writings said "no" to over 30 of the texts of the Revised Version; that is, over 30 of the passages compared in my book; of course there were many more that I did not cite in my book. ..." - - Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, Answers to Objections, by Benjamin G, Wlikenson, pages 150-151 [PDF]
    Sister White uses in few instances, compared to main, multiple translations into the English for specific reasons in her materials [and such versions which are no longer in any real public use, such as the Noyes, Leeser, Rotherham, Basic, Boothroyd, Bernanrd, Westminster, Lamsa, ARV, RV], but those who attack her do not care for such facts. The percentage [for overall] is also about 99% [KJB] to 1% [or less; other English translation, no longer in use by anyone, and all outdated and placed by the side for 'updated' and 'easier to read, easier to read' models, while the KJB goes on strong in practically every country in the world].

    "When the first revision was published, I purchased a good copy and gave it to Mother. She referred to it occasionally, but never used it in her preaching. Later on as manuscripts were prepared for her new books and for revised editions of books already in print, Sister White's attention was called from time to time by myself and Sister Marian Davis, to the fact that she was using texts which were much more clearly translated in the Revised Version. Sister White studied each one carefully, and in some cases she instructed us to use the Revised Version. In other cases she instructed us to adhere to the Authorized Version." - The E. G. White Counsel on Versions of the Bible, p. 7
    It is easy to understand why she did this. It is not that the KJB had bad translation, or imperfect as the preserved word of God in English. The reason is simple. Audience, and context. Books such as the Great Controversy, Desire of Ages, etc, are not a bible [obviously], and as such, when quoting a single text or two therein, there are times, when the general audience may not have access to the KJB, to see the context of a given word in a single text, and is therefore, beneficial, to use another text which gets the meaning across without having to see the remaining texts in any given passage. The same is done for other historical materials which appear in those sources. When there are multiple variations, such as History of the Reformation by D'Aubigny, eventually there were quotations that needed to be re-referenced to the one chosen by D'Aubigny, and as such are flexible in that manner. In fact, one can read the preface to the reader in the Great Controversy itself.

    Many of the times, when the RV, is used [and chosen by herself], it is generally the OT, in which the vast majority of such references are pretty much the same as the KJB. It is not that other translations into English do not contain some of the word of God in English, it is that they also contain serious deviations [evidence upon request] here and there, but the KJB is the word of God perfectly preserved into English.

    Will the opponents care for the facts? No, they will continue on as they will ...
     
  14. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Now, can we get back to OP?
     
  15. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Stands irrefuted in this whole thread so far:

    Investigative Judgment as given in type through the whole of the Bible [Genesis to Revelation]:

    It is not even addressed.

    The real ARK of the Covenant in the Heavenly Sanctuary contains the Original Law of God, that was given to Moses:



    It is not even addressed.

    The Record 'Books' of Heaven involved in Judgment:



    It is not even addressed.

    The entire Structure of Daniel and Revelation, along with the Prophecies was given:


    It is not even addressed.

    Now, let's get to the details of Daniel, and remove all doubt. Ready?
     
  16. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Daniel 8:13 KJB - Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    Daniel 8:14 KJB - And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
    First, let's look at the word "cleansed" [Daniel 8:14 KJB] [H6663], which in Hebrew is "ונצדק", "w'nitz'Daq"

    Total KB Occurrences: 41

    justified, 12

    Job 11:2, 13:18, 25:4, 32:2; Psalms 51:4, 143:2; Isaiah 43:9,26, 45:25; Jeremiah 3:11; Ezekiel 16:51-52 (2)
    righteous, 10

    Genesis 38:26; Job 10:15 (2), 15:14, 22:3, 34:5; Psalms 19:7-9 (3); Ezekiel 16:52
    justify, 7

    Exodus 23:7; Deuteronomy 25:1; Job 9:20, 27:5, 33:32; Isaiah 5:23, 53:11
    just, 3

    Job 4:17, 9:2, 33:12
    justice, 2

    2 Samuel 15:4; Psalms 82:3
    justifieth, 2

    Proverbs 17:15; Isaiah 50:8
    justifying, 2

    1 Kings 8:32; 2 Chronicles 6:23
    cleansed, 1

    Daniel 8:14
    clear, 1

    Genesis 44:16
    righteousness, 1

    Daniel 12:3
    In the sanctuary services [Psalms 77:13 KJB], the cleanse part has to do with the transition from the daily to the yearly [day of atonement] in type and antitype, even as Daniel 8 refers to in imagery [Ram [offering], He-goat [sin offering], Four Horns [as in the golden altar] for making atonement, in both place and people], see Leviticus 16:

    Leviticus 16:2,13,14,15 - mercy seat [and cherubim thereon]
    Leviticus 16:2-9,11-21,23-34 - High Priest, ministration
    Leviticus 16:3,5 - ram
    Leviticus 16:4,24,26,27,28,30 - washing/burning, thus cleansing
    Leviticus 16:5,7,8,15,24 - [Lord's] goat, sin offering
    Leviticus 16:5,9,10,15,16,21,27,30,34 - transgression
    Leviticus 16:5,6,7,15,16,17,19,20,21,22,23,24,26,27,28,29,30,31,33,34 - people of God, congregation, camp
    Leviticus 16:6,17,20 - atonement [so also Leviticus 23]
    Leviticus 16:12,13,18 - with four horns outside on altar of sacrifice and four horns inside golden altar of incense [Daniel 8:13-14,26, etc, Revelation 9:13-15, Oct. 22, 1844]
    Leviticus 16:16,19,30,33 - uncleanness of persons and places, needing to be cleansed [vs 19, “cleanse”]
    Leviticus 16:34 - end of the daily [evening and morning], now the once in the year
    Thus what Daniel 8:14 KJB, reveals is the transition of Christ Jesus [Daniel 8:13 KJB, “certain saint”, the wonderful numberer, who numbers the hairs, stars, sands, kingdoms, times and boundaries, etc] in His Great High Priestly role, from one phase [antitypical daily] to another [antitypical yearly] in the Great Heavenly Sanctuary above, per Daniel, Matthew, Acts, Hebrews, Revelation, etc, and also deals with the peoples of that time [1844] afterward, in their own related cleansing. Thus sanctuary, and host.

    Daniel 8:1,4,6,7,20 - Ram
    Daniel 8:3,5,6,7,8,9,20,21 - horns [8, 4 outside [altar sacrifice], 4 inside [altar incense' -- 2 on ram, 1 on he-got, 4 on he-goat, 1 from winds]
    Daniel 8:5,8,21 - He Goat
    Daniel 8:10,13,24,25 - the holy people of God
    Daniel 8:11,13,14,25 - certain saint [High Priest Jesus]
    Daniel 8:12,13,14,24,25 - transgression
    Daniel 8:13,15-17 - one saint speaking, and another saint said - covering cherubims/angels [Gabriel and 'Herald']
    Daniel 8:11,12,13-14,26 - daily ongoing [evening and morning] and finally ended, yearly commenced
    Daniel 8:14 - cleansed

    more in Daniel 9-12 KJB where the atonement is found, which is the re-explanation and expansion of Daniel 8.
    A few examples:

    Consider that in Job 25:4 KJB, utilizing the same word found in Daniel 8:14 KJB, for “cleansed”, is given as “justified”, but in parallel [Isaiah 28:10 KJB, the ways of the Lord being “equal” [Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB]] in vs 4, as meaning, “be clean”, and even vs 5, refers to “pure”, referring to a case to be judged, as Job's.

    Consider that in Job 15:14 KJB, utilizing the same word found in Daniel 8:14 KJB, for “cleansed”, is given as “righteous”, but in parallel [Isaiah 28:10 KJB, the ways of the Lord being “equal” [Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB]] in vs 14, as meaning, “be clean”, and even in vs 15, refers to “saints” [holy], and “clean” again.

    Consider also that Psalms 51:4 KJB, utilizing the same word in Daniel 8:14 KJB, for “cleansed”, is given as “justified”, but in parallel [Isaiah 28:10, the ways of the Lord being “equal” [Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB]] in vs 4, as meaning, “be clear when thou judgest” [ie. day of atonement, Leviticus 16, 23, KJB see also ], then read further in vs 7, of “clean” and “wash”.

    Consider that in Job 22:3 KJB, utilizing the same word found in Daniel 8:14 KJB, for “cleansed”, is given as “righteous”, but in parallel [Isaiah 28:10 KJB, the ways of the Lord being “equal” [Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB]] in vs 3, as meaning, “perfect”, and even in vs 4, refers to “judgment”.

    Consider that in Psalms 19:7-9 KJB, refers to [vs7]: “perfect”, [vs 8]: “right”, “pure”, [vs 9]: “clean”, “judgments”, “righteous”.

    Consider that in Ezekiel 16:52 KJB,- refers to [vs 52]: "righteous", connected to [vs 51,52] "justified", in connection with "sins" and "judg[-ment]".

    Etc, etc. for every time the underlying word, as found in Daniel 8:14 KJB, is used in scripture, it almost inevitably is connected with the same words in context, if not in the very same text itself, see King James Concordance, H6663, tsadaq, but, in advice, always allow the King James Bible itself to define its own words, line upon line, precept upon precept. Some might say the words are different in Hebrew. Yep, and this is so from Genesis 1, for God uses multiple words, such as 'create', 'made', 'formed',[see Isaiah 43:7 KJB, etc] etc.​
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  17. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    For an overall picture of Daniel 8's structure, for instance,

    Daniel 8's “the vision”- Daniel 8's “the interpretation”

    Daniel 8:1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - beginning
    Daniel 8:2-4 - - - - - - - - Daniel 8:20 - - - - Media and Persia/Ram
    Daniel 8:5-7 - - - - - - - - Daniel 8:21 - - - - Greecia, First King/He Goat
    Daniel 8:8 - -- - - - - - - - Daniel 8:22 - - - - Division of Greecia/4 Horns of He Goat
    Daniel 8:9 - - - - - - - - - Daniel 8:23[a.] - - Rome Pagan/“king of fierce countenance”
    Daniel 8:10 - - - - - - - - Daniel 8:23[b.] - - Rome Papal/“understanding dark sentences”
    Daniel 8:11-12 - - - - - - Daniel 8:24-26- - - increase of Papal Rome, Deadly wound,&c
    ending - - - - - - - - - - - - Daniel 8:27 - - - - -

    Moreover, here is the parallelism of Daniel 8 & 10,11-12

    Daniel 8's “the interpretation”- - - - - Daniel 10/11/12 “the interpretation”

    Daniel 8:1 - beginning - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Daniel 10:1-21,11:1
    Daniel 8:20 - Media and Persia/Ram - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Daniel 11:2
    Daniel 8:21 - Greecia, First King/He Goat- - - - - - - - - - - - Daniel 11:3
    Daniel 8:22 - Division of Greecia/4 Horns of He Goat - - - - Daniel 11:4,5-19
    Daniel 8:23[a] - Rome Pagan/“king of fierce countenance” - Daniel 11:20, [transition], 21-30
    Daniel 8:23 - Rome Papal/“understanding dark sentences” - Daniel 11:31-39 [1,290 1,260 1,335]
    Daniel 8:24-26- increase of Papal Rome, Deadly wound,&c -Daniel 11:40[a] [enlarge] 40-45
    Daniel 8:27 - ending - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Daniel 12:1-3, [enlarge]
     
  18. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Vision:

    Daniel 8:1 KJB - In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.​

    Daniel is very chiastic [even as sister White herself is, example upon request], not only in chapter, but so in verse, for instance, in Daniel 8:1, chiastiacally it reads [brackets in bold added for helpful clarity]:

    [A1] “In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar ...”

    [B1] “... a vision appeared ...”

    [C1] “... unto me [Daniel] ...”

    [C2] “... even unto me Daniel ...”
    [B2] “... after that [vision] which appeared unto me ...”
    [A2] “... at the first [year of the reign of king Belshazzar, in Daniel 7:1].”

    Daniel 7:1 KJB - In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.
    Back to Daniel 8:

    Daniel 8:2 KJB - And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

    Daniel 8:3 KJB -Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

    Daniel 8:4 KJB -I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.​

    Interpretation, by Gabriel [Daniel 8:15-19,26] and the Holy Spirit [Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20].

    Daniel 8:20 KJB - The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.​

    Gabriel, speaking of “the vision's” ending:

    Daniel 8:15 KJB - And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

    Daniel 8:16 KJB -And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

    Daniel 8:17 KJB -So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

    Daniel 8:18 KJB -Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

    Daniel 8:19 KJB - And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

    Daniel 8:26 KJB - And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.​

    *As a side note, its 'days', from a simple reading of the plain English, King James Bible, and also from parallelism and chiastic structure of Daniel 8 itself [ie. line upon line], in vs 26, we see that God's word interprets itself and equates these 2,300 evening and morning's to 'many days', and moreso, from the beginning in Genesis 1 [the book of seed/foundation], etc, we see the language there of the 'evening and morning' the so and so “day”. Further than this, throughout the Scripture [KJB], evening/morning [OT/NT] are always connected with a day, and even so with the Sanctuary services [demonstrable upon request], yet prophetic days. All texts upon request, even in Hebrew if necessary for the KJB English skeptic.​

    Daniel's ending:

    Daniel 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

    With this, we see that “the vision” [details concerning the clean [sanctuary] sacrificial, Ram [sanctuary, daily], He Goat [sanctuary, yearly] and Four Horns [sanctuary, Golden Altar of incense on the Day of Atonement] was to begin in the era of Mede/Persia [Daniel 8:1-4,20] and ended after 2,300 day/years [we get a more exact starting date in Daniel 9, Ezra 1-7, etc].

    We may know that “the vision” to be far longer than any mere normal 'days', beginning in Mede/Persia [see Ezra] and then turns over to the “Greecia[ns]” [Daniel 8:5-8,21-22] and its many kings, and then turns over to the Romans in several phases, sometimes called 'Pagan' [Daniel 8:9,23] and 'Papal' [Daniel 8:10-12,23-26] and its phases.

    We can also consider, that the 2,300 days “evening mornings” [vs 26] are related to the decree in Ezra 7, [see also Ezra 6:14, “the commandment of God”, and “the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia”, etc], per Daniel 9:25, “the commandment”, since in that commandment we are dealing with the Sanctuary [on earth], hence “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [physical Jews]”, but we may come to the connections in Daniels 8,9-10-12 in a further post.
     
  19. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    What the "Daily" of Daniel 8,11,12 KJB is is already addressed in thorough detail here -

    Please be aware it is a Adventists Congregation section, for Adventists Only:


    Seventh-Day Adventists only; "the daily", a reconsideration of the evidences

    Introduction and Table of Contents

    [01] The passages with “the daily” in Daniel [8:11,12,13, 11:31, 12:11 KJB]:

    [02] The definition of the Hebrew word [H8548], “תּמיד”, “tâmı̂yd”, according to the King James Bible, a brief listing from the King James Concordance [KJC] – E-Sword:
    [03] The definition of the Hebrew word [H8548], “תּמיד”, “tâmı̂yd”, according to the King James Bible, in their full listing

    [04] The only times that the exact phrase “the daily” appears in the English of the King James Bible:

    [05] What is the context surrounding “the daily” of Daniel 8, 11 & 12 KJB?
    [06] Considering “the daily” in scripture [KJB], in regards Psalms 77:13 KJB - “Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?”

    [06A] The Old Testament uses
    [06B] The New Testament continuance
    [06C] The “daily” surrender and experiences, either to Satan or to God
    [07] Considering “the daily” in Daniel's prophecy, in reference to the timeframes and participants, in type and anti-type

    [08] Considering “the daily” in Daniel's prophecy, in reference to the location thereof
    [09] 2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJB, detailed, from Scripture [KJB], SoP/ToJ and history

    [10] Considering “the daily” in the SoP/ToJ, especially the Early Writings (1882), pages 74.1 - 75.2; Review and Herald, November 1, 1850, par. 9 - 13; A Sketch of the Christian Experience and Views of Ellen G. White (1851), pages 61.1 – 62.1; Spalding and Magan Collection (1985) [original letter, March 18, 1852], pages 1.1 – 3.4; and what was said elsewhere on the subject be Ellen G. White and others

    [10A] The Great Controversy (1911) quotations, does it support this or that?
    Summary 1:
    Summary 2 - recap:

     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  20. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Therefore, Daniel 8's “vision” is directly related to Daniel 7's “visions”.

    Daniel 8:1 KJB - In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

    Colour coded for easy spotting:

    Daniel 8:2 KJB - And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

    Daniel 8:3 KJB - Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

    Daniel 8:4 KJB - I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

    Daniel 8:5 KJB - And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

    Daniel 8:6 KJB - And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

    Daniel 8:7 KJB - And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

    Daniel 8:8 KJB - Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

    Daniel 8:9 KJB - And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

    Daniel 8:10 KJB - And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

    Daniel 8:11 KJB - Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

    Daniel 8:12 KJB - And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

    Side note, “... by reason of transgression ...” was already mentioned in Daniel 7:25 KJB:

    Daniel 7:25 KJB - And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
    It is through fallen human [“... eyes like the eyes of man ...” Daniel 7:8 KJB] “reason” [“the pope's will stands for 'reason'”] that this power will “think” to “change times and laws” “of the Most High”, thus is “transgression”.
    Daniel 8:13 KJB - Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    Side note:

    Daniel 8:13 KJB is structurally chiastic, in that there are 2 main questions in it, with subsection to each main question [brackets in bold added for clarity]:

    [A1]How long shall be the vision concerning the daily …”

    [A2] “... to give … [both] the sanctuary ...”
    [B1] “... and [How long shall be] the transgression of desolation ...”

    [B2] “... to give … [both … and] the host to be trodden under foot?”
    Side note:

    Daniel 8:13 KJB, the “certain saint, is Jesus/Michael, the wonderful numberer ~ the one who numbers the hairs of our head, the stars, the sands, the kingdoms, and the times and boundaries, etc. The great accountant, who takes account of his kingdom and servants.
    Daniel 8:14 KJB - And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
    This [Daniel 8:13 KJB] is why there are multiple times [propehtically speaking] given in Daniel.

    The overall time time prophecy of the "vision" of the 2,300 days [evening/mornings] begins in the time of Medo Persia, and continued through Greece [and its division], Rome [Pagan, and its division], Rome [Papal] in its several forms. Thus from Daniel 8:2-14 and 8:20-26.

    The 2,300 is broken up into smaller fragments, of the 70 weeks [490 years, and its sub divisions, of [7 weeks [49 years], 62 [434 years], together 483 years] and 1 [7 years, [1/2 and 1/2 at 3 1/2 years each]] of Daniel 9:21-27, for the Jews, and the remainder still counting. It also includes the trampling of the 1,260 [also 42 months and aka time, times and 1/2 times, see Daniel 7:25, 12:7; Revelation 11:2,3, 12:6,14, 13:5 KJB and Luke 21:24 KJB], and the 1,290, and 1,335 of Daniel 12:11,12; Revelation 14:13 KJB.

    The ending of the time of the end and of 2,300 is seen in Daniel 8:13,14,26; Revelation 3:7,8, 9:13-15, 10:6, 11:1, 14:6-7, etc. It can also been seen in the Jubilee of the 50 years from 1793 [the beginning of the 3 1/2 year prophecy of Revelation 11:9,11 KJB.] unto 1843/4. It can also be seen in the typology of John 2:20 KJB, in the 46 years, from 1798 unto 1844. It is also witnessed in the book of Revelation the "five months" of Revelation 9:5,6,10; Genesis 7:24, 8:3; Luke 1:24 [typologies] which are the anti-typical feast time [and includes the coming out of Egypt unto Canaan, encompassing Woe 1, 2, and 3, the first 3 and then the final Last 7, as it was in Egypt of old], beginning in AD 34 unto AD 1833/34 in Trumpets, 10 day/years, before 1843/44.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
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