• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by LoveGodsWord, May 10, 2018.

  1. listed

    listed are you?

    +1,514
    Non-Denom
    Private
    I could quote and discuss each of your references. That would again be fruitless in regard to you. Not a single one of your referenced verses say anything about becoming an Israeli physically or spiritually. you are just applying Hitlers method of deception.
    And what will be your defense?
    The NT did not come from God's mouth and is the pure concoction of man? You even say this about what you call the laws of Moses. What can we say? I'm tired of your cheap shots at the foolish.
    Only your quotes and references with your implied meanings and additions. The passages I and others have quoted to are from God's Word proving you're wrong.
     
  2. listed

    listed are you?

    +1,514
    Non-Denom
    Private
    The mere fact you quoted it doesn't mean you discussed it as requested. What you've done here is by pass the requested discussion once more.
    What I said is backed by the Scripture I both referenced and quoted. Gentile Christians aren't grafted into Israel as you claim. Romans says "graft in among." Ephesians says "fellow citizens with the saints."
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  3. listed

    listed are you?

    +1,514
    Non-Denom
    Private
    And the righteous have been judged and passed the judgment.
     
  4. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

    +928
    Christian
    Married
    Semantics my friend. SDAs claim she was the "spirit of prophecy". I understand where you are coming from. She had the gift, according to SDAs, but she herself was not the SoP. I accept you your correction and will give myself 10 lashes with a wet noodle and go back and change my post.

    Funny that LGW didn't catch my mistake. He/she never misses a chance to tell me what I write isn't true.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  5. listed

    listed are you?

    +1,514
    Non-Denom
    Private
    "Great Missionary?"
     
  6. listed

    listed are you?

    +1,514
    Non-Denom
    Private
    We read the quote much differently.
     
  7. listed

    listed are you?

    +1,514
    Non-Denom
    Private
    I can accept your presentation. My real point is we have already been found not guilty and passed the judgment without condemnation having eternal life.

    The contents of Romans 14:10 has been met by the Christian.
     
  8. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

    +928
    Christian
    Married
    Lets get something straight. My post about the Sinai covenant not being a covenant of salvation no way implied that those who lived under it will not be saved. I never ever indicated that in the least. lgw loves to try to make what I write into a lie. Well as anyone can see He is not batting very well. I am tired of correcting him/her, but this one I couldn't let go. It proves my point very nicely. :)

    lgw wrote:
     
  9. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

    +2,684
    Christian
    Married
    I would submit that Daniel 7 does not focus on any individual judgment of the saints.

    The vision begins with a description of the beasts.

    These are interpreted later in the chapter:

    17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

    The four beasts are generally interpreted by Adventists as:


    Babylon
    Medo-Persia
    Greece (Macedonian)
    Rome

    The fourth beast had ten hours. Three were plucked, and the little horn then becomes the focus.

    Of course, A.T. Jones and Uriah Smith debated the exact identity of some of the ten horns. But generally the little horn is agreed upon (except for some recent voices speaking of Islam), to be the papacy, and its system.

    After the beasts, ten horns, three plucked up, and little horn are described, the judgment scene is pictured.

    Nothing about the context to this point deals with individual Christians, but with powers, kingdoms, etc.

    Here is the judgment scene:


    9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
    10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

    Books in other texts are related to records of individuals actions, and names in the book of life.


    However, God also judges nations, as is clear from Daniel itself, from the prophets, etc. Books indicate records, but this may include records regarding the nations. God catalogues wrongs of various nations at times, such as in Amos 1:

    11 Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he did pursue his brother with the sword, and did cast off all pity, and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever:
    12 But I will send a fire upon Teman, which shall devour the palaces of Bozrah.
    13 Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of the children of Ammon, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have ripped up the women with child of Gilead, that they might enlarge their border:

    Edom was judged because of attacking relatives. The Ammonites were punished for the egregious crime that all would recognize as wrong of ripping open a pregnant woman's womb.


    Israel was punished for specific violations of the covenant. God judged them by what He had revealed to them:

    6 Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;

    7 That pant after the dust of the earth on the head of the poor, and turn aside the way of the meek: and a man and his father will go in unto the same maid, to profane my holy name:

    8 And they lay themselves down upon clothes laid to pledge by every altar, and they drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god.


    The focus of the judgment in Daniel 7 is clear from the actions it carries out:


    11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

    The fourth beast was slain. The others had their dominion stripped.


    These are actions dealing with nations, not primarily individuals.

    21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

    22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
    23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
    24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    In the explanation of the vision the ten horns are ten kings from a kingdom.


    The saints here are identified corporately, as a group. There is no question as to their identity. There is no scrutiny individually of the saints here. They are being worn out by the little horn. Judgment is given to them, and as a result their adversary is destroyed. They are delivered by the judge, similar to the situation of the widow with the unjust judge who wanted justice against her adversary.


    26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

    27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


    Also, the particulars of this judgment do not meet the criteria that Ellen White stipulates for the investigative judgment.

    So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. Great Controversy, chapter 28


    Moreover there is no scrutiny mentioned to define who is the little horn. Adventists often indicate the papacy does profess to be a follower of God. True, but there is no indication of confusion about who is who here. And Babylon, Media, Persia, and Rome were not professed followers of God. Yet this court removes the dominion of three and slays the fourth.

    Now this doesn't remove the possibility of a pre-advent judgment on the individual records of the saints. But it does not picture it either.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  10. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

    +2,684
    Christian
    Married
    I think this text reveals an important point.

    Romans 14:10 For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
    11 For it is written:
    As I live, says the Lord,
    Every knee shall bow to Me,
    And every tongue shall confess to God.”

    12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.


    We are said to give an account, kneel, confess. These do not happen at the IJ, and could not happen there, as we are not present, and wouldn't even know our name was being reviewed at that time. This could only happen when we are in the presence of God.


    And if we confess and bow the knee in His presence, what is the need for a protracted investigation? Any interested angels could hear the confession.
     
  11. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

    +2,684
    Christian
    Married
    James White had it right the first time:

    It is not necessary that the final sentence should be given before the first resurrection, as some have taught; for the names of the saints are written in heaven, and Jesus, and the angels will certainly know who to raise, and gather to the New Jerusalem. "A Word to the Little Flock"

    And given that we all confess and bow the knee, there is no question of whether God is just.

     
  12. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

    +4,329
    Christian
    Married
    "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Romans 8:1
     
  13. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

    +2,684
    Christian
    Married
    True!

    Which agrees with John 5.

    However, even the parable of the talents, etc. relates that we will give an account of ourselves. We can know that we have eternal life in His Son, per I John 5, and will not be condemned. But we will still be at the judgment seat.
     
  14. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

    +2,684
    Christian
    Married
    2 TIMOTHY 4:1 [1], I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick [living] and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    This makes clear when the judging happens--at His coming.
     
  15. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +238
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    I noticed, and as such, your 'differently', is 'incorrectly'.
     
  16. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +238
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    No. We don't. The Spirit of prophecy, is the Holy Ghost [since one of the gifts of the Holy Ghost, is prophets], sent by Jesus with Jesus' testimony unto us [the church, including sister White].

    It would be just as ignorant of and rebellious to facts to call Paul, the "Spirit of prophecy", or John the "Spirit of prophecy", or Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, the "Spirit of prophecy", or Moses, the "Spirit of prophecy". Not one of them, are the "Spirit of prophecy", but they manifested the gift of the Holy Ghost in their varied functions.
     
  17. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

    +2,684
    Christian
    Married
    upload_2018-5-30_15-26-59.png

    Has come is in the aorist. Usually the Aorist is indicative of an event that has already happened in the past, of either a punctilliar or indefinite length.

    However, since the warnings regarding Babylon are for the future, it cannot be a reference to an already completed judgment, or the warnings would be unnecessary. So it appears to be a prophetic aorist, or what is sometimes called a proleptic aroist, or futuristic aorist, (anticipatory), indicating something that will happen, but is so certain the past tense is used. The emphasis is looking at it in the totality, as often happens with the aorist.

    Interestingly, we see this same convention used in Revelation 10:7, which may have some bearing on the current question.

    Revelation 10:7
    But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


    Should be finished is an aorist.

    upload_2018-5-30_16-45-9.png

    If you read it as an aorist referring to a past event then it would not make sense. At the time of the statement this event is in the future, not the past, and is tied to the voice of the seventh angel.

    Now notice that this gives the particular timing of the completion of the mystery--at the voice of the 7th angel.

    Revelation 11:15 gives more detail on this:

    Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


    Here the time of judgment is correlated with reward, and destroying those who destroy the earth. It is tied to the end of the kingdoms of this world.


    Now the context of Revelation 14 refers to the judgment on Babylon as it goes on to announce that Babylon is fallen. Those who participate with her will partake of her judgment.

    7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
    8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
    9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  18. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +238
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    I am going to make a comment [and will probably be taken wrongly], but interlinears are basically useless.
     
  19. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

    +2,684
    Christian
    Married
    Comment noted. Do you disagree that it is an aorist? You do not need an interlinear to see that. But for those who may be reading along who are not familiar with the forms, it may be helpful for them to see.

    Here is the TR if you prefer:

    7 λεγοντα εν φωνη μεγαλη φοβηθητε τον θεον και δοτε αυτω δοξαν οτι ηλθεν η ωρα της κρισεως αυτου και προσκυνησατε τω ποιησαντι τον ουρανον και την γην και θαλασσαν και πηγας υδατων
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  20. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +238
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    The Bible is to be read and understood in the language one understands, for instance:

    1 Corinthians 14:19 KJB - Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

    Acts 2:6 KJB - Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

    Acts 2:8 KJB - And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

    Acts 22:1 KJB - Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.

    Acts 22:2 KJB - (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)

    Acts 26:14 KJB - And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.​

    If I were to take several pictures of mss, papyri, codice, palimpsest, etc and present a screenshot fragment on the screen [in several languages], I seriously doubt that anyone on this board would be able to tell me what languages they were in, let alone read them [even if one of them was in koine Greek]. Not even the Greeks today in general [scholars, etc, excepted] read and understand Koine Greek, as it is at least two levels of language removed.

    The Bible shows how we are to study it:

    Isaiah 28:10 KJB - For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

    1 Corinthians 2:13 KJB - Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.​

    etc.

    For instance, the brothers of Joseph, didn't have to understand the Egyptian language that Joseph spake, but had to trust in the integrity of the translation thereof [thus think about what it would mean to reject the interpretation for the original, when a person cannot speak/understand that original language]:

    Genesis 42:23 KJB - And they knew not that Joseph understood them; for he spake unto them by an interpreter.
    We see this example all throughout the scripture [KJB], in practical use, in dreams/visions/prophecies [God is the interpreter, not we ourselves], and even in persons themselves:

    interpreter: Genesis 40:8, 42:23; Job 33:23; 1 Corinthians 14:28

    interpretation/s: Genesis 40:5,8,12,16,18, 41:11; Judges 7:15; Proverbs 1:6; Ecclesiastes 8:1; Daniel 2:4,5,6,7,9,16,24,25,26,30,36,45, 4:6,7,9,18,19,24, 5:7,8,12,15,16,17,26, 7:16; John 1:42, 9:7; Acts 9:36, 13:8; 1 Corinthians 12:10, 14:26; Hebrews 7:2; 2 Peter 1:20

    translate/ed/ion: 2 Samuel 3:10; Colossians 1:13; Hebrews 11:5
    People like to play the Greek and Hebrew game [for varied reasons]. I dislike doing so, though I can cite from Hebrew/Koine Greek [see below], Latin, etc when needful for those that refuse to read plain English, their mother tongue. Here is an example of that 'game' [I do not espouse all of the religious/political views of this presenter]:



    "aorist" has an entire range, from past [several ways], to present [several] to future [citations upon request]. This is why interlinears are basically useless, as they ignore the context, even of the very next word sitting by any given word being considered therein. Case in point Revelation 17:10 KJB. I had a pastor swear to me [and get angry with me] that the text ought to read [as they were looking at an interlinear] in the present [future] tense [ie "the five fall"], rather than what it says [KJB, "five are fallen"], and it didn't matter to this pastor that I presented copious amounts of evidence, and historical translation by practically all of the reformation, etc, proving the pastor [and the interlinear] incorrect [thy believed in the 8 last pope heresy]. This is the danger of going to the Koine Greek [and interlinears], when one does not understand the language. It can also lead to relying upopn man, rather than God. God's word is written in such a way as it translated/inteprets itself. It has built in rules [kinda like DNA, and RNA], alphabet, language, math tables, etc.

    Now, Revelation 14:6-7 says this in the KJB, the plain preserved word of God in English:

    Revelation 14:6 KJB - And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    Revelation 14:7 KJB - Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.​

    If we cannot agree on the plain English before us, how shall we fair any better in a foreign language to most on this board? Case in point:

    Someone one might ask, what about the 'original'? There are no extant 'original' mss, etc around. What about the extant mss, etc we do have? Which ones, I will ask, and why was a particular one chosen over another, and what was the standard of criteria for so doing, and what was that the standard of measurement, by what standard was that measurement measured, etc?

    If one is speaking about the GNT TR [Greek New Testament based upon 'Textus Receptus' [of the KJB]], then it reads:

    Revelation 14:6 GNT TR - και ειδον αλλον αγγελον πετωμενον εν μεσουρανηματι εχοντα ευαγγελιον αιωνιον ευαγγελισαι τους κατοικουντας επι της γης και παν εθνος και φυλην και γλωσσαν και λαον

    Revelation 14:6 GNT TR with Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes and Strong's Numbering -
    καιG2532 CONJ ειδονG3708 V-2AAI-1S αλλονG243 A-ASM αγγελονG32 N-ASM πετωμενονG4072 V-PNP-ASM ενG1722 PREP μεσουρανηματιG3321 N-DSN εχονταG2192 V-PAP-ASM ευαγγελιονG2098 N-ASN αιωνιονG166 A-ASN ευαγγελισαιG2097 V-AAN τουςG3588 T-APM κατοικουνταςG2730 V-PAP-APM επιG1909 PREP τηςG3588 T-GSF γηςG1093 N-GSF καιG2532 CONJ πανG3956 A-ASN εθνοςG1484 N-ASN καιG2532 CONJ φυληνG5443 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ γλωσσανG1100 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ λαονG2992 N-ASM​

    Revelation 14:7 GNT TR - λεγοντα εν φωνη μεγαλη φοβηθητε τον θεον και δοτε αυτω δοξαν οτι ηλθεν η ωρα της κρισεως αυτου και προσκυνησατε τω ποιησαντι τον ουρανον και την γην και την θαλασσαν και πηγας υδατων

    Revelation 14:7 GNT TR with Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes and Strong's Numbering - λεγονταG3004 V-PAP-ASM ενG1722 PREP φωνηG5456 N-DSF μεγαληG3173 A-DSF φοβηθητεG5399 V-AOM-2P τονG3588 T-ASM θεονG2316 N-ASM καιG2532 CONJ δοτεG1325 V-2AAM-2P αυτωG846 P-DSM δοξανG1391 N-ASF οτιG3754 CONJ ηλθενG2064 V-2AAI-3S ηG3588 T-NSF ωραG5610 N-NSF τηςG3588 T-GSF κρισεωςG2920 N-GSF αυτουG846 P-GSM καιG2532 CONJ προσκυνησατεG4352 V-AAM-2P τωG3588 T-DSM ποιησαντιG4160 V-AAP-DSM τονG3588 T-ASM ουρανονG3772 N-ASM καιG2532 CONJ τηνG3588 T-ASF γηνG1093 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ | | τηνG3588 T-ASF | θαλασσανG2281 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ πηγαςG4077 N-APF υδατωνG5204 N-GPN​

    Doesn't that make it all clearer to those who cannot read it? Of course not.

    To answer a question:

    In the GNT-TR of Revelation 14:7, the word "ηλθεν", "elthen" is a Verb, Second Aorist, Active, Indicative, Third Person, Singular. That was so helpful, wasn't it? All that time, where did it go?, when if we just believed Psalms 12:6-7 KJB, etc, in that God preserved His word for us today, in the common language, even in English, we wouldn't have to do all this run around to understand the word "is" in it's context, and so compare the spiritual word of God with itself, and prayerfully considering, and asking God for light and guidance and truth. God will explain His own word, since it originates with Him.

    The "is" becomes important when we understand the timeframe of the context of that "is". The "is" of the Judgment [over God's very Ten Commandments, see vs 7,12] spoken of takes places while the Everlasting Gospel is going into all the earth, and before the close of probation [ie, while the Gospel is still offered]. The connection of Revelation 10:7 KJB is indeed important, since it shows the timeframe to come, in which there is no more mercy being offered.
     
Loading...