GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

[LoveGodsWord]

What are you saying? Early Writings was not before her first vision. And certainly Testimonies volume 4 was not before her first vision.

The first vision was after the great disappointment of Oct 22 1844. So was the Testimonies.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

We have already discussed the context issues. But the Adventist view of Daniel 8:14 has other issues as well.

Not at all. I have provided a lot of scripture earlier showing cotext. The issue of context it seems was on your side. This is when you gave wanting to talk scripture to change the topic to EGW.

For one, the vision was completed in chapter 8. Adventists however, claim that it was not, that Daniel could not continue, so the start date was given in chapter 9. But chapter 9 does not say to start the vision of Chapter 8 at that time. And the vision of chapter 8 was already completed:

There are quite a few parrallel chapters of Daniel discussing different aspects of the same topic or discussing the same topic from a different way. This is seen in Daniel 2; Daniel 7; Daniel 8; Daniel 9; Daniel 11 and Daniel 12.

* Daniel 2 = All World empires listed described as different materials within a statue of man

* Daniel 7 = All World empires listed described as different beasts with the kings as horns, and what these kingdoms would do and how they would arise leading to the little horn that makes war with God and his saints leading to the judgment and God's kingdom being delivered to his people.

* Danial 8 = Describing the next world empires after Babylon as the Medes and Persians follow by Greece leading to the little Horn that becomes exceeding great in power, who casting down some of the host of heaven, mangifying himself to the Prince of the host (Heaven) and casting down the daily and Sanctuary and God's truth by transgression which was to be for a time of 2300 years. Makes war with God's poeple and stands up against the Prince of Princes (King of King's)

* Daniel 9 = The first year of the Medes which had overthrown Babylon in fulfillment of Dan 2 and 7. The breaking down of the 2300 year prophecy of Daniel 8 leading to the Messiah his time and death making the earthly temple desolate and abolished.

* Daniel 11 = A descripture of the battles between the some of these end time kings.

* Daniel 12 = The time of trouble and the deliverance of God's people found written in the book of life. Linking back to Daniel 7's judgment and God's everlasting kingdom being delivered to the Saints. The prophecy was to be shut up as it is for the end days. The time phases of 1290 and 1335 years

So no all through the charpters of Daniel different aspects of the same prophecies are being discussed and the book was sealed up to the time of the end.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

False is false. And Jesus coming to earth in 1843 was false.

Not at all, your view seems to be that if the application was wrong by the Millerites all the scriptures assiciated with the prophetic time line is also wrong. So therefore throw it all away. An error mixed with truth does not make the truth no longer truth. The prophetic time periods from Daniel and Leviticus were correct. The Millerites application of the prophetic timeline to the 2nd coming was not.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

She judged the people for rightly following the Bible!

No not at all. She provided God's Word for those who rejected God's Word. it is only God who judges others we cannot.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The message was Jesus was coming in 1843. That was completely incorrect.

Your just repeating yourself now. We are already in agreement that the application of the prophetic time period to the snd coming by the Millerites was not correct. The prophetic time line however was correct. Your view seems to be that if the application was wrong by the Millerites all the prophetic time line is also wrong. So therefore throw it all away. An error mixed with truth does not make the truth no longer truth. The prophetic time periods from Daniel and Leviticus were correct. The Millerites application of the prophetic timeline to the 2nd coming was not.

The application was the message! Jesus coming in 1843. That was the message. It was wrong.

Not really tall. There was a lot of scripture linked to this message. Not all of it was not correct or in error. Your view is that because there was no 2nd coming then all the scriptures provided with this prophetic time line are not correct either. An error mixed with truth does not make the truth no longer truth. The prophetic time periods from Daniel and Leviticus were correct. The Millerites application of the prophetic timeline to the 2nd coming was not.

The application is also what caused people to reject it, because Scripture rejects such date setting. And Ellen White condemned them for correctly applying the Scripture warnings.

After the fulfillment of the prophetic period the scriptures were re-examined and a correct understanding of the prophetic timeline was applied. Those who were truly wanting to see the Lord's coming searched the scriptures. Those that did not want to see the Lord's coming did not. An error mixed with truth does not make the truth no longer truth. The prophetic time periods from Daniel and Leviticus were correct. The Millerites application of the prophetic timeline to the 2nd coming was not.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No, I did not misunderstand. I am aware of the usage of the term Adventist. But in the fourth volume of the Testimonies, where I was quoting from, it makes very plain this was after a campmeeting at Battlecreek and she was talking to Seventh-day Adventists about their date setting.

Yes she was talking to Seventh-day Adventists in general using the term of the day "Adventists" which referred to all those who continued in timesetting inside and outside the Churches of the day.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Oh yes, the people who ignored Jesus' own words and preached a date setting message about His return must have loved Jesus' coming more than those who actually held to His words? No, I do not think that.

Thanks least your honest. Here we disagree. The scriptures make it very clear that God tests his people all through the OLD and NEW Testament inclusive of the prophecies written in Daniel and Revelations. Once again your repeating yourself. The prophetic time period was correct. The application to the 2nd coming however was not.

They gave a false message that Jesus was coming in 1843, and it failed. And the people who rebuked them were correct, because they followed the Scriptures.

Once again your repeating yourself. The prophetic time period was correct. The application to the 2nd coming however was not. This was in fulfillment of the feast of trumpets.

Now according to your thought here we must accept anyone's claims of inspiration, anyone's claim of being led by God, with no way to test it. Except you know that is not true. The Scriptures are the test. And The people of his day correctly pointed out to Miller his unbiblical date setting by the Scriptures.

Not at all, I reject your claim above. We should always test everything by the Word of God. The prophetic time period of Daniel was correctly applied. William Miller provided an application of the prophetic time period however that was not correct. This does not make the prophetic time period not correct. This is testing what is in the scriptures and by doing so the correct application was determined. Your accusations are baseless. An error mixed with truth does not make the truth no longer truth.

Abraham had no Scripture yet forbidding that. However, the Millerites had clear Scripture presented again and again to them regarding the coming of Jesus and date setting.

Abraham had the Word of God directly spoken to him the Millerites did not. Abraham is a good example here now don't you think on how God tests his people?

Once again, this does not change Ellen White's words condemning them for holding the correct position regarding Jesus' coming and date setting, and about the failed prophesy of Jesus coming in 1843.

Not really tall. This is already discussed your taking a quote that was given after the Oct 22 1844 that has applications to future events and God's plan of salvation and applying them strictly to past events. This has already been shown in previous posts. Your just repeating yourself here.

Any of us can see that the only way for someone to preach the Millerite message was to ignore Scripture.

Not really thowing out truth with a wrong application of a message that was latter corrected is rejecting God's Word. An error mixed with truth does not make the truth no longer truth. The prophetic time periods from Daniel and Leviticus were correct. The application of the 2nd coming was not.

Except it didn't actually talk about the Day of Atonement at all, and instead talked about false date setting of Jesus' return.

Not at all the cleansing of the Sanctuary is a direct reference to the day of atonement (Daniel 8:14). This has already been shown in earlier scripture discussions with you. This was the correct application to the prophetic time period that the Millerites got wrong in thinking it was referring to the 2nd coming.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Why do you keep talking about the first vision when I say 1858? She was writing long after the first vision in Spiritual Gifts volume 1 and still condemned those who rejected Miller's date setting during the time of Miller.

In other words, she condemned those who actually followed the Scriptures.

Because all your repeating is what came out of the first vision applying it to everything written in the past. You seem to be going around in circles now only repeating yourself.

Did you have any scriptures to share now?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Indeed they knew someone deciding to murder someone else was wrong. But Cain was certainly not told to kill Abel by God.

Exactly! Your just agreeing with the point I made earlier and that is that Abraham already knew that to murder someone was wrong. Yet he thought that was what God was telling him to do because God was testing him. Imagine what would have happened if Abraham had told his family or others that followed God? Was Abraham following God while he was being tested even though this was not God's will?

God did tell Abraham to do this. Abraham did not object. Hebrews says he reasoned God could raise him from the dead. We do not know what would have been said if he did object. And God did not in fact have him carry through the act. But there was no Scripture against it at that time for Abraham to cite.

Most of what you have said here I agree with except for the last sentance. Your trying to make an argument by silence even when we are told in Genesis that Cain was punished by God for murder which resulted from a wrong application of sacrifice for sin.

Miller specifically says he was not told by God. The message he gave had Scriptures that specifically warned against giving such a message. He gave it anyway. And then Ellen White condemned those who followed the Scriptures.

This was my point earlier Abraham had the word of God directly spoken to him by God. Miller did not but had God's Word. Was Abraham led by God in thinking God wanted him to sacrifice his son? Yes. Was the sacrifice of Abrahams son what God wanted? NO. It was a test by God that he would make clear to Abraham at a latter date. Was the Millerite movement correct in their application of the prophetic time period of Daniel? Absolutely not. Was the prophectic time period correct? Absolutely!

Was the application corrected at a latter stage after the great dissappointment of 1844 by those who love and were looking for Christ's 2nd coming? Absolutely. This was also a testing time to many. Those who loved the Lord's appearing continued to search the scriptures. Those that did not disredarded all the scripture as a false message. An error mixed with truth does not make the truth no longer truth.

The prophetic time periods from Daniel and Leviticus were correct. The application of the 2nd coming was not. Throwing out the truth of God's Word is the same as rejecting God's Word. This was the test of the great dissappointment.

Hope this helps

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No, I am pointing out that the people who rejected Miller's message rejected it because it was against Scripture. Yet Ellen White said they were condemned for rejecting Miller's false message.

Not really. Not everything in the message was false only the application to the 2nd coming. This is where your mistake is. Your view seems to be that if the application was wrong by the Millerites all the prophetic time line is also wrong. So therefore throw it all away. An error mixed with truth does not make the truth no longer truth. The prophetic time periods from Daniel and Leviticus were correct. The Millerites application of the prophetic timeline to the 2nd coming was not.

LGW wrote; Yet here in both of these examples from God's WORD we do not deny that both John the Baptist and Peter as being led by God now do we?

We one hundred percent deny that Peter was acting on inspiration there. And to say he was is ludicrous. Just as it is to say that Miller was when he said that Jesus was coming in 1843. Both were false. And God did not judge people who pointed out they were false with Scripture.

Now your making false arguments. These examples were provided as those who were lead of God but made mistakes. No one said their mistakes were led of God. The Millerites had the correct prophetic time line according to scriptures. Their application to the 2nd coming was not correct. This was corrected at a latter time after 1844.

Does that mean that God judges people if they reject his wrong messages? Of course not.

Well it depende. If you have been given a knowledge of what truth is and you reject it then you have rejected the Word of God and are accountable to it especially if it is a salvation issue. *Acts 17:30-31

Incorrect, because she endorsed the heavenly MESSAGE, not just the messenger. And she said God judged people on their reception of that false, time setting message.

Not at all you have twisted what was said and left out context this has been shown already in many posts so far as well as scripture.

 

[tall73]

Not at all. I have provided a lot of scripture earlier showing cotext. The issue of context it seems was on your side. This is when you gave wanting to talk scripture to change the topic to EGW.

That is only your characterization. We can only repeat so many times.

* Daniel 9 = The first year of the Medes which had overthrown Babylon in fulfillment of Dan 2 and 7. The breaking down of the 2300 year prophecy of Daniel 8 leading to the Messiah his time and death making the earthly temple desolate and abolished.

It does not say it is breaking down the 2,300 year prophecy.

So no all through the charpters of Daniel different aspects of the same prophecies are being discussed and the book was sealed up to the time of the end.

It says the vision of Chapter 8 is sealed. It never says it is unfinished. You have not addressed that.

You have simply asserted that the chapter 9 is talking about the 2,300 days, and have given no evidence.

 

[tall73]

I did it was not how you interpreted it. Here it is again you may have missed it. (Highlighted in the first paragraph)


The “Shut Door” Defined

For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled us to see the true position.

I am still a believer in the shut-door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents.

There was a shut door in Noah's day. There was at that time a withdrawal of the Spirit of God from the sinful race that perished in the waters of the Flood. God Himself gave the shut-door message to Noah:

“My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3).

There was a shut door in the days of Abraham. Mercy ceased to plead with the inhabitants of Sodom, and all but Lot, with his wife and two daughters, were consumed by the fire sent down from heaven.

There was a shut door in Christ's day. The Son of God declared to the unbelieving Jews of that generation, “Your house is left unto you desolate” (Matthew 23:38).

Looking down the stream of time to the last days, the same infinite power proclaimed through John:“These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth” (Revelation 3:7)

Hope this helps.

Now who is the one leaving out what she said? Why did you not quote the rest?


I was shown in vision, and I still believe, that there was a shut door in 1844. All who saw the light of the first and second angels' messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness


She believed the door was shut in 1844 on those who had rejected the message. But the message leading up to Oct. 22, 1844, was all about the second coming, and that is why they rejected it. And she condemned them in Early Writings for rejecting the false date-setting message of Miller regarding the second coming.

 

[tall73]

The first vision was after the great disappointment of Oct 22 1844. So was the Testimonies.

They certainly were, but she said the door was shut in 44.

I was shown in vision, and I still believe, that there was a shut door in 1844. All who saw the light of the first and second angels' messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness

And she related that those who rejected the date-setting message of Miller were rejecting God. But they were not. They were pointing out Miller's disregard for Scripture.

 

[tall73]

Depends if they rejected God's Word or not after the great dissappointment.

That is not what she said:

I was shown in vision, and I still believe, that there was a shut door in 1844. All who saw the light of the first and second angels' messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness

The door was shut in 1844, not after. A shut door means it is not open any longer.

Now explain why those who rejected the date setting of Miller in regards to the second coming were rejecting God.

 

[tall73]

Not at all, your view seems to be that if the application was wrong by the Millerites all the scriptures assiciated with the prophetic time line is also wrong.

The reason his message was rejected was because he was date setting for the second coming. Whether the time line was right or note makes no difference as to why they rejected the message. They rejected it because he was making an application to the second coming, against the Bible.

You have still not explained why those who actually went by the Scriptures and rejected date setting for the second coming were the wrong ones. And those who ignored the words of Jesus and Paul were the right ones by making a failed prediction of Jesus' coming, when they should not have date set.

So therefore throw it all away. An error mixed with truth does not make the truth no longer truth.

A message with falsehood is not true. His message was Jesus coming in 1843. That was completely untrue.

And the whole basis of their rejection was the time setting for the second coming. And Ellen White condemns them for correctly pointing this out.

Why have you not explained why those who went by the Bible were the wrong ones?

The prophetic time periods from Daniel and Leviticus were correct. The Millerites application of the prophetic timeline to the 2nd coming was not.

Your assertion is they were correct. You have not actually shown your work on the start date.

But either way, that has nothing to do with Ellen White condemning them for rejecting Miller's date setting for the second coming.

 

[tall73]

No not at all. She provided God's Word for those who rejected God's Word. it is only God who judges others we cannot.

Oh, so to be clear, the Bible does not speak against setting a date for Jesus' coming?

 

[tall73]

After the fulfillment of the prophetic period the scriptures were re-examined and a correct understanding of the prophetic timeline was applied. Those who were truly wanting to see the Lord's coming searched the scriptures. Those that did not want to see the Lord's coming did not. .

No, she says there was a shut door in 1844. According to her they were already toast and could not re-examine.

 

[tall73]

Yes she was talking to Seventh-day Adventists in general using the term of the day "Adventists" which referred to all those who continued in timesetting inside and outside the Churches of the day.

And inside the Seventh-day Adventist church, because that is who she was talking to. Notice he last sentence.


Many who have called themselves Adventists have been time setters. Time after time has been set for Christ to come, but repeated failures have been the result. The definite time of our Lord's coming is declared to be beyond the ken of mortals. Even the angels who minister unto those who shall be heirs of salvation know not the day nor the hour. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Because the times repeatedly set have passed, the world is in a more decided state of unbelief than before in regard to the near advent of Christ. They look upon the failures of the time setters with disgust; and because men have been so deceived, they turn from the truth substantiated by the word of God that the end of all things is at hand. {4T 307.1}
Those who so presumptuously preach definite time, in so doing gratify the adversary of souls; for they are advancing infidelity rather than Christianity. They produce Scripture and by false interpretation show a chain of argument which apparently proves their position. But their failures show that they are false prophets, that they do not rightly interpret the language of inspiration. The word of God is truth and verity, but men have perverted its meaning. These errors have brought the truth of God for these days into disrepute.
Testimonies vol 4, pg 307

 

[tall73]

Not at all, I reject your claim above. We should always test everything by the Word of God.

And they did. They pointed out Miller's message of Jesus coming to earth was against the Scriptures.

You have yet to explain how Miller could possibly pass that test, since he preached quite clearly a time for Jesus' return.

The prophetic time period of Daniel was correctly applied.

Of course it was not. They applied it to the second coming. That was incorrectly applied.

William Miller provided an application of the prophetic time period however that was not correct. This does not make the prophetic time period not correct.

Whether you think the later message was correct is immaterial to the fact that Miller's message was Jesus coming in 1843, then 1844. That is what the people rightly tested. And Ellen White condemned them for following what the Scriptures said, and for rejecting Miller's false message.

This is testing what is in the scriptures and by doing so the correct application was determined. Your accusations are baseless. An error mixed with truth does not make the truth no longer truth.

A message based on falsehood is false. Miller's message was false. And had Miller concerned himself with testing it by Scripture he would have never given his false message in the first place.

Abraham had the Word of God directly spoken to him the Millerites did not. Abraham is a good example here now don't you think on how God tests his people?

We agree! God spoke to Abraham.

Miller agrees God did not speak to him.

God tested Abraham.

God did not test those in Miller's day with a false message that Miller would have never preached if he had read the words of Christ against date setting.

Now of course Ellen White says God did condemn those who followed the words of Jesus and Paul. But of course, He did not condemn those who followed His word over those who put their experience first and ignored His word.

Not at all the cleansing of the Sanctuary is a direct reference to the day of atonement (Daniel 8:14).

No, in this case it is a direct reference to cleansing from the defilement of the little horn. But in any case Miller preached Jesus' coming. That was his message. And it was a false message. And she judged them on it.

 

[tall73]

Exactly! Your just agreeing with the point I made earlier and that is that Abraham already knew that to murder someone was wrong.

I am agreeing Cain's murder of Abel was wrong. And Abraham would be aware of that.

But there was no law against sacrificing of people to God, and Abraham did not object.

Later a law was spelled out regarding this.

Yet he thought that was what God was telling him to do because God was testing him. Imagine what would have happened if Abraham had told his family or others that followed God? Was Abraham following God while he was being tested even though this was not God's will?

He had no evidence at all to the contrary of it being God's will. There was no law forbidding sacrifice of people to God. He did not even raise an objection as he did when God was going to destroy Sodom.

Later the law spelled this out. And yes, this was a test. God spoke to Abraham, Abraham knew his voice, and started to do what God asked until God told him not to.

And we know he did not even tell his servants about the plan to kill his son:

Genesis 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.


Now Miller on the other hand did not hear from God, by his own account. And Miller had clear scriptures against date setting for Jesus' second coming. And those who heard his message rejected it because of Scripture.

The two are not the same at all.

Most of what you have said here I agree with except for the last sentance. Your trying to make an argument by silence even when we are told in Genesis that Cain was punished by God for murder which resulted from a wrong application of sacrifice for sin.

And yet not every killing was murder. Abraham was not punished as a murderer for hunting down those who kidnapped Lot. And if God told him to sacrifice his son, and there was no law against it, it does not follow that he would have known any different. He makes no objection at all.

Miller would certainly know different, and if he didn't before he was reminded over and over again about date setting.

This was my point earlier Abraham had the word of God directly spoken to him by God. Miller did not but had God's Word. Was Abraham led by God in thinking God wanted him to sacrifice his son? Yes. Was the sacrifice of Abrahams son what God wanted? NO. It was a test by God that he would made clear to Abraham at a latter date. Was the Millerite movement correct in their application of the prophetic time period of Daniel? Absolutely not.

But it goes beyond that. He had clear scripture warnings not to preach definite time for Jesus second coming. So did Ellen White and all those who followed Miller. Yet Ellen White condemned those who rejected Miller's date setting. She even mentions their objection--the definite time, the day and the hour, etc. She acknowledges they were quoting Scripture to address Miller's mistake. Yet Miller and her dismissed it. And they should not have. The people were right to rebuke the date setting, and Miller's message did not come to pass.

This was also a testing time to many.

Yeah, for instance for Miller, who should have listened to the Bible and not preached a definite time for Jesus' coming.

Even if you think the prophetic periods were true, the message Jesus coming, which was Miller's actual message, was not true. They were right to reject it on the basis of the date setting for Jesus' coming.