GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord said: Once again this is not from the SDA Church which was not founded until 1863. God did not cause an intentional deception at all. Even though she said He did? Even though she said God was in the preaching of time in 1843?

You really need to make up your mind. So for instance, He did not cover over the mistake in figures so they got 43 instead of 44?

This is only repitition as we have already discussed this earlier as the application to 1833 to 1843 was the fulfillment of Leviticus 23:24 in preparation for Leviticus 23:27; Daniel 8:14 and Daniel 7:10. *Please see also post # 45 and post # 751. Seems like the scriptures and the prophectic time period match up pretty nicely don't you think? God was indeed in the preaching of the time of Daniel 8:14.

The application used by William Miller to the 2nd coming however was not correct and this was the testing time of the great disssapointment.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord said: Is it God's fault that people had a wrong understanding of the application of the scriptures

She doesn't say that Miller had a wrong message. She said he had a heavenly message, and the truth. But of course, it was a false message. And she also says God judged people on the basis of their rejection of that false time-setting message.

EGW believed that his preaching fulfilled the prophecies of Scripture, and saw him being guided by the Lord.

"I saw that William Miller erred as he was soon to enter the heavenly Canaan, in suffering his influence to go against the truth. Others led him to this; others must account for it. But angels watch the precious dust of this servant of God, and he will come forth at the sound of the last trump." (Early Writings, p. 258.)

Your argument here is a false one as it starts with a false premise, that those whom God or angels lead must be theological infallible. Your trying to equate the attributes of God with His messengers. For instance, God led John the Baptist. After all, Jesus Himself said that there was no greater prophet than John (Luke 7:28). And yet, we find John questioning the Messiahship of Jesus (Matthew 11:3), no small theological point, to be sure.

Or what about Peter who, though certainly led of God, refused to eat with Gentiles when other Jews were around (Galatians 2)? Thus, sometime after the Cross, after Jesus told Peter to "feed my sheep" (John 21:17), after even Pentecost, Peter seems to have missed one of the foundational truths of what Jesus taught and what the Cross was to accomplish (Galatians 3:28).

Yet here in both of these examples from God's WORD we do not deny that both John the Baptist and Peter as being led by God now do we?

In The Great Controversy, EGW wrote of Martin Luther that "angels of heaven were by his side, and rays of light from the throne of God revealed the treasure of truth to his understanding." Does that mean that everything Luther wrote was from God?

What Protestant who loves the gospel that Martin Luther unearthed from centuries of rubbish and superstition generated from the RCC, doesn't believe that the Lord led Luther?

Now, did EGW's endorsement (after all having angels of heaven by your side is a pretty good endorsement) mean that she would have supported Luther's vitriol against those who believed in the seventh-day Sabbath? Would she have endorsed his attacks against Ulrich Zwingli, who argued that the bread and wine in the Lord's supper were just symbols as opposed to Luther's more Catholic-leaning position of a real presence of Christ in them?

Did this mean that she agreed with Luther's diatribes against the Jews, in which he wrote things the Nazis used centuries later to help pave the way for mass murder?

Your argument above is based on a false premise and is therefore a strawman argument.

Hope this helps.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Because that was what Ellen White was talking about years later.

Sorry tall, your only repeating yourself now and saying things that are not true already shown to be the case in previous post. EGW never endorsed the application of the 2nd coming from the Millerite movement as a correct message in latter years. She only endorsed the prophetic time period of Daniel 8:14 as being correct. Saying otherwise is not true. I will leave this between you and God.

She said that those who rejected Miller's false message were doomed. That is not hard to figure out why folks would talk about it. It is absurd.

Once again this is only more repitition. The reference is in relation to the prophetic time line of Daniel 8:14, Daniel 7:10 and Leviticus 23:24-32 and the three angels messages. Who are you to say how God tests people to know what is in their hearts. I will leave that between the individual and God. It is true however that once you reject God's WORD he will reject you. This rejection does not take place until all the light of God's WORD is revealed.

The correction of the Millerite application to the prophetic time period took place sometime after Oct 22, 1844. EGW's first vision as shown earlier included scenes that were both past, present and future. This is something you have not been considering in any of this discussion.

Hope this helps.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Because Ellen White in 1858 is still condemning the people who rejected the false date setting message about the second coming during the Millerite movement!

Nope, as already discussed the first vision was in relation to scenes that were past, present and future events after the great dissappointment in 1844.
 
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tall73

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If part of that same message in your example above was that the train is at the train station then is this part of the message true or false? Obviously it is true. You think that if one part of the message was not correct then all of the message cannot be correct. If there is truth mixed with an error, the error does not make the truth no longer true



Indeed we have already agreed on this. William Millers application of the scriptures was not correct in relation to the 2nd coming. The prophetic period however calculated from Daniel 8:14 was correct.



Your problem here is that you apply the first vision given after the great dissappointment of the Millerite movement soley to the past. This is your mistake.

"When the lord sees fit to give a vision, I am taken into the presence of Jesus and angels, and am entirely lost to earthly things. . . . my attention is often directed to scenes transpiring upon earth. at times I am carried far ahead into the future and shown what is to take place. Then again I am shown things as they have occurred in the past." (Spiritual gifts, vol. 2, p. 292).

Not everything is an application to what has taken place in the past.

I am not applying the first vision here. I am applying her own words in Early Writings where she condemns those who rejected Miller's false message.
 
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tall73

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Why what is not biblical about it? Daniel 8:14 is very biblical.

We have already discussed the context issues. But the Adventist view of Daniel 8:14 has other issues as well. For one, the vision was completed in chapter 8. Adventists however, claim that it was not, that Daniel could not continue, so the start date was given in chapter 9. But chapter 9 does not say to start the vision of Chapter 8 at that time. And the vision of chapter 8 was already completed:


And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.


The vision is true, seal it up. The angel gives no indication that the vision is incomplete, or that Daniel could not continue.
 
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tall73

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Not really, the shut door discussion we have already discussed this is only your repitition here.

The “Shut Door” Defined

For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled us to see the true position.

I am still a believer in the shut-door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents.

There was a shut door in Noah's day. There was at that time a withdrawal of the Spirit of God from the sinful race that perished in the waters of the Flood. God Himself gave the shut-door message to Noah:

“My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3).

There was a shut door in the days of Abraham. Mercy ceased to plead with the inhabitants of Sodom, and all but Lot, with his wife and two daughters, were consumed by the fire sent down from heaven.

There was a shut door in Christ's day. The Son of God declared to the unbelieving Jews of that generation, “Your house is left unto you desolate” (Matthew 23:38).

Looking down the stream of time to the last days, the same infinite power proclaimed through John:“These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth” (Revelation 3:7)

Hope this helps.

Why did you not include the part where says she still believes in a shut door in 1844? It describes what is being discussed.
 
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tall73

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Now tall, this is where you have your problem. Do you think that just maybe, God may have provided this as a testing time to see who really loved the coming of the Lord and who did not?

Oh yes, the people who ignored Jesus' own words and preached a date setting message about His return must have loved Jesus' coming more than those who actually held to His words? No, I do not think that.

They gave a false message that Jesus was coming in 1843, and it failed. And the people who rebuked them were correct, because they followed the Scriptures.

Now according to your thought here we must accept anyone's claims of inspiration, anyone's claim of being led by God, with no way to test it. Except you know that is not true. The Scriptures are the test. And The people of his day correctly pointed out to Miller his unbiblical date setting by the Scriptures.


Abraham was tested to offer his son as a burn't offering.
Abraham had no Scripture yet forbidding that. However, the Millerites had clear Scripture presented again and again to them regarding the coming of Jesus and date setting.

Once again error in a message does not make the truth in it no longer truth, that is within a message. The error was the application of Daniel 8:14 to the 2nd coming from William Miller. On this we can both agree. This is not the application and belief of the SDA Church and never has been.

Once again, this does not change Ellen White's words condemning them for holding the correct position regarding Jesus' coming and date setting, and about the failed prophesy of Jesus coming in 1843.

Only God knows the heart of all those invloved there during the Millerite movement who was for God and who was against him. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed.

Any of us can see that the only way for someone to preach the Millerite message was to ignore Scripture.

We are all held accountable to God for what we know not what we do not know.

Yes, and I think God will have some questions of Miller, etc. about why they preached Jesus' coming in 1843, when they had clear Scriptural warnings against doing so.

It was a heavenly message designed to fulfill God's will as it fulfilled the application of the Feast of Trumpets and also announced the timing of Christs work and minsitration on our behalf on the great day of atonement in fulfillment of Daniel 8:14 and the propetic time period of the 2300 year day prophecy prior to his soon return.

Except it didn't actually talk about the Day of Atonement at all, and instead talked about false date setting of Jesus' return. The message Miller gave was not heavenly. It was false. An the people correctly rebuked Miller for going against Scripture.
 
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tall73

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It is indeed shame on you. No one is saying that the Millerite movement had the correct application of the scriptures to the 2nd coming. EGW's application was to the prophetic time period as being correct not the application to the 2nd coming. You statement's application that EGW's application is to the 2nd coming is a false one.

She judged the people for rightly following the Bible!
 
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tall73

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Your making statements in regards to the Millerite message as being completely false because of their application was to the 2nd coming when the prophetic time period was correct.

We both agree that the application was not corerct. You are stating that because the application was not correct the whole message was not correct.

The message was Jesus was coming in 1843. That was completely incorrect.

This is where we are in disagreement.

The prophetic time calculations were indeed correct. This resulted in the fulfillment of the Feasts of Trumpets and the beginning of the ministration of Christ in the great day of atonement and the investigative judgment outlined in Leviticus 23:24-32; Daniel 8:14 and Daniel 7:10.

The Millterite movement resulted in the fulfillment of these scriptures and a message that went to the world in preparation for the 2nd coming. The application was indeed wrong.

The application was the message! Jesus coming in 1843. That was the message. It was wrong.

The application is also what caused people to reject it, because Scripture rejects such date setting.

And Ellen White condemned them for correctly applying the Scripture warnings.
 
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tall73

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Now tall, I have never said a half truths make everything true. Once again error in a message does not make the truth in a message no longer truth within a message.

So you should not have a problem with eternal hell--the hell part is right!

Of course that is not the case. False is false. And Jesus coming to earth in 1843 was false.
 
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tall73

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So in your view in Abrhams day, it was ok to murder your children as long as it was a sacrifice because God did not tell them not to sacrifice their Children? Yet we see the story of Cain and Able and Cain being punished for murder in Genesis.

Indeed they knew someone deciding to murder someone else was wrong. But Cain was certainly not told to kill Abel by God.

God did tell Abraham to do this. Abraham did not object. Hebrews says he reasoned God could raise him from the dead. We do not know what would have been said if he did object. And God did not in fact have him carry through the act. But there was no Scripture against it at that time for Abraham to cite.

Now here we do not have God telling Miller. Miller himself admits it. He did not claim God told him. And we have plain scripture that rules out Miller's message altogether, as date setting. And the message did not come to pass.

So it is ridiculous to say that God condemned those people who actually followed the Scriptures.

Can you really not see the point and parrallels here to the 1833-1844 movement?
No, not at all. Abaham was told by God, who had told him many things before, to do something. He had no Scripture against it. Then he was told not to do it. It was certainly a test as the Scriptures say.

Miller specifically says he was not told by God. The message he gave had Scriptures that specifically warned against giving such a message. He gave it anyway. And then Ellen White condemned those who followed the Scriptures.
 
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tall73

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My earlier post to you was referring to all those from the Millerite movement being referred to as Adventists and making a distingtion between the Adventists of the Millerite movement
and Seventh Day Adventists who were not founded until 1863 which do not hold to the application of the scriptures in the Millerite movement to the 2nd coming. Everyone associated with the Millerite movement and the different groups that came out of this movment were called "Adventists" You misunderstood my earlier post to you.
No, I did not misunderstand. I am aware of the usage of the term Adventist. But in the fourth volume of the Testimonies, where I was quoting from, it makes very plain this was after a campmeeting at Battlecreek and she was talking to Seventh-day Adventists about their date setting.
 
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tall73

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Now tall, you know this was before the first vision was given after the great dissappointment of the Millerite movement not before. So this is irrelavant.

What are you saying? Early Writings was not before her first vision.

And certainly Testimonies volume 4 was not before her first vision.
 
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tall73

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EGW believed that his preaching fulfilled the prophecies of Scripture, and saw him being guided by the Lord.

"I saw that William Miller erred as he was soon to enter the heavenly Canaan, in suffering his influence to go against the truth. Others led him to this; others must account for it. But angels watch the precious dust of this servant of God, and he will come forth at the sound of the last trump." (Early Writings, p. 258.)

Your argument here is a false one as it starts with a false premise, that those whom God or angels lead must be theological infallible. Your trying to equate the attributes of God with His messengers.
No, I am pointing out that the people who rejected Miller's message rejected it because it was against Scripture. Yet Ellen White said they were condemned for rejecting Miller's false message.

And I am not the one calling it "heavenly", "truth" etc. It was certainly not. It was false.

As to John the Baptist, did he give a false message about Jesus that people were judged on? No.

Or what about Peter who, though certainly led of God, refused to eat with Gentiles when other Jews were around (Galatians 2)?
Good point! And did God condemn Paul for disagreeing with him and telling him the truth? Because Ellen White condemned those who told Miller the truth.


Yet her in both of these examples from God's WORD we do not deny that both John the Baptist and Peter as being led by God now do we?
We one hundred percent deny that Peter was acting on inspiration there. And to say he was is ludicrous.

Just as it is to say that Miller was when he said that Jesus was coming in 1843. Both were false. And God did not judge people who pointed out they were false with Scripture.


In The Great Controversy, EGW wrote of Martin Luther that "angels of heaven were by his side, and rays of light from the throne of God revealed the treasure of truth to his understanding." Does that mean that everything Luther wrote was from God?
Does that mean that God judges people if they reject his wrong messages? Of course not.

Your argument above is based on a false premise and is therefore a strawman argument.

Hope this helps.

Incorrect, because she endorsed the heavenly MESSAGE, not just the messenger. And she said God judged people on their reception of that false, time setting message.
 
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tall73

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It is true however that once you reject God's WORD he will reject you. This rejection does not take place until all the light of God's WORD is revealed.

You mean like the Scriptures presented to the Millerites again and again against date setting? Fortunately Miller repented later.
 
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tall73

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Nope, as already discussed the first vision was in relation to scenes that were past, present and future events after the great dissappointment in 1844.

Why do you keep talking about the first vision when I say 1858? She was writing long after the first vision in Spiritual Gifts volume 1 and still condemned those who rejected Miller's date setting during the time of Miller.

In other words, she condemned those who actually followed the Scriptures.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I am not applying the first vision here. I am applying her own words in Early Writings where she condemns those who rejected Miller's false message.

Are but you are applying the first vision. which is applied to all those who reject the 3 Angels messages of Reveleations 14.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Why did you not include the part where says she still believes in a shut door in 1844? It describes what is being discussed.

I did it was not how you interpreted it. Here it is again you may have missed it. (Highlighted in the first paragraph)


The “Shut Door” Defined

For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled us to see the true position.

I am still a believer in the shut-door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents.

There was a shut door in Noah's day. There was at that time a withdrawal of the Spirit of God from the sinful race that perished in the waters of the Flood. God Himself gave the shut-door message to Noah:

“My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3).

There was a shut door in the days of Abraham. Mercy ceased to plead with the inhabitants of Sodom, and all but Lot, with his wife and two daughters, were consumed by the fire sent down from heaven.

There was a shut door in Christ's day. The Son of God declared to the unbelieving Jews of that generation, “Your house is left unto you desolate” (Matthew 23:38).

Looking down the stream of time to the last days, the same infinite power proclaimed through John:“These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth” (Revelation 3:7)

Hope this helps.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You mean like the Scriptures presented to the Millerites again and again against date setting? Fortunately Miller repented later.

Depends if they rejected God's Word or not after the great dissappointment. Only God knows it is not for us to judge who will make it to heaven or not. It is rejecting God's Word that is the problem that keep all out of God's Kingdom.
 
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