GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

[tall73]

Well this is simply a half truth which is deceptive.

I would dispute it is a half-truth. But how are my half truth's deceptive, and Miller's heavenly?

A half truth is not true.

 

[tall73]

Well this is simply a half truth which is deceptive. The prophetic time period was correct. The application to the 2nd coming was not. This has already been addressed in post # 45 in relation to the feast of trumpets and post # 751 with other example of scripture showing how God sometimes withholds information until the time is right.

We have to keep addressing it as long as you are saying half truths are true.

Jesus is coming in 1843 was a completely false message. There was no truth in it because Jesus did not come in 1843.

It is not complicated, if Jesus came in 1843, it would be true. He did not. It was not true.

 

[tall73]

Sorry tall, that has no truth in it at all. So in your view; does God want us to sacrifice our Children as a burnt offering (Genesis 22:2)? Who are you to say how God tests his people?

At that point God had given no explicit law against sacrificing children as He did later. He clearly does not want that. But He gave Abraham the command and then told him not to.

However, we have something different here. The people they were preaching to quoted the words of Jesus, that no one knows the day or hour, He will come at a time you think not, no need to write about dates and times, etc.

They were the ones following God. Miller was not. Miller was proven to be not when what he said did not come true.

Stating half truths is misleading indeed. The prophetic period was correct. The application was not for a time correct. The application was corrected. This has nothing to do with the SDA Church but to the Millerite movement so is irrelavant.

Oh so are you admitting Miller's false half-truth?

Miller admitted it.

But it has everything to do with it because Ellen White says that God judged people on Miller's false message.

Your application here in your first sentence is deceptive. Adventist being referred to was people out of the Millerite movement not the SDA Church.

Incorrect. Look it up:
E.G.White, "Testimonies for the Church Volume Four"

She is addressing the people after a vision at the Battle Creek camp meeting.

Besides, she couldn't say that about the Millerite movement, because that was the time she thought it was right to preach definite time!

This seems to be a pattern with you. State your interpretation to a passage get caught out rinse and find another passage and repeat. This is sad for you.

This seems to be a pattern with you. Claim something isn't saying what it is saying. She is warning the people of her time, because they are still date setting.

 

[tall73]

Once again this is not from the SDA Church which was not founded until 1863. God did not cause an intentional deception at all.

You really need to make up your mind. So for instance, He did not cover over the mistake in figures so they got 43 instead of 44? Even though she said He did? Even though she said God was in the preaching of time in 1843?

She said He determined they meet with a disappointment.

 

[tall73]

Is it God's fault that people had a wrong understanding of the application of the scriptures

She doesn't say that Miller had a wrong message. She said he had a heavenly message, and the truth.

But of course, it was a false message.

And she also says God judged people on the basis of their rejection of that false time-setting message.

 

[tall73]

Once again your talking about the Millerite movement. Not sure why you keep posting about it.

Because that was what Ellen White was talking about years later. I am quite sure people were surprised by her comments too, which is why the publishers had to put footnotes to soften them in response to questions.

She said that those who rejected Miller's false message were doomed. That is not hard to figure out why folks would talk about it. It is absurd.

 

[tall73]

The day and the hour was never preached so this is not true. It was only a time period that was set between 1843-1844. Then they believed in a day in Oct 22, 1844 sometime latter..

Do you see what you just said? The day and hour were never preached....until they were!

And that is just the point. Of course the ministers of the day also pointed out Jesus coming when you think not, and the words of Paul about times and dates not being necessary because He comes as a thief. They ignored all of it.

The absurd part is that Ellen White is writing this in 1858. She knew they eventually settled on Oct 22, 1844. That is a specific date of course. So they even ignored that warning in the end. There was no Scripture they wouldn't ignore in their date setting.

And then she condemned the ministers who said the date setting was wrong.

 

[tall73]

Not at all. This was not the issue. Indeed no one knows the day and the hour. Tha application was not correct. I don't know why you keep on harping on about this when I have agreed with you from the start that the application of the prophetic time period was not the 2nd coming.

Because Ellen White in 1858 is still condemning the people who rejected the false date setting message about the second coming during the Millerite movement!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So it went to every single believer in every single country?

I do not know how far it went around the world. I do not think any single person knows to be honest. Only God knows. But one thing is true, most commentators agree that it was a world-wide message across different churches.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Of course it does.

If I told you I would arrive at the bank at 10 am but I arrive at the stadium across town instead, was my message about arriving at the bank at 10 am true or false?

It was clearly false.

If part of that same message in your example above was that the train is at the train station then is this part of the message true or false? Obviously it is true. You think that if one part of the message was not correct then all of the message cannot be correct. If there is truth mixed with an error, the error does not make the truth no longer true

The Millerite movement eventually said that Jesus' second coming would happen on Oct. 22, 1844. That was a false message. Jesus' coming did not occur on Oct. 22, 1844.

Indeed we have already agreed on this. William Millers application of the scriptures was not correct in relation to the 2nd coming. The prophetic period however calculated from Daniel 8:14 was correct.

It was the date setting in regards to the second coming that people rejected, because there are clear biblical statements against date setting regarding Jesus' second coming. And then Ellen White condemned them for following the Bible.

Your problem here is that you apply the first vision given after the great dissappointment of the Millerite movement soley to the past. This is your mistake.

"When the lord sees fit to give a vision, I am taken into the presence of Jesus and angels, and am entirely lost to earthly things. . . . my attention is often directed to scenes transpiring upon earth. at times I am carried far ahead into the future and shown what is to take place. Then again I am shown things as they have occurred in the past." (Spiritual gifts, vol. 2, p. 292).

Not everything is an application to what has taken place in the past.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I am sure you do. It is amazing how Adventists like that statement, but still tell other people they should not put their experience over the Bible.

Why what is not biblical about it? Daniel 8:14 is very biblical.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You just got done rationalizing that the message would not go forward if they told the truth, which is why it was done this way. So apparently you don't think God's message can go forward.

And you have to make up your mind. The document you cut and paste from actually presented two different defenses--the ole' throw it at the wall and see what sticks approach.


- Either
God intended a disappointment, intentionally obscured the errors in figures, and wanted them to preach the 2nd coming, in which case He was testing them (as Ellen White indicates in EW)
-Or
God was not in it and used them despite their blundering.

The two are not the same. Pick which one you think it was.


Either way it makes no sense because God would be punishing those who rejected the message because of the date setting regarding the second coming.

Not at all. I have provided scripture and context to the events taking place that you left out of your earlier posts. Please see earlier posts # 769 as an example with attached links.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

In this instance God gave instructions for Abraham to do something, then changed them. That is not the same as telling Abraham to give a false prophecy to thousands, that directly went against God's word.

I think you missed the point of this earlier post. Does God want us to Sacrifice our children as a burn't offering? What would have happened if Abraham went around telling all those who were God's people of the day, Hey God spoke to me last night. I have to go up the mountain tomorrow to offer my son as a burn't offereing?

Who are we to say how God tests his people? God's WORD went out in fullfillment of the Feast of Trumpets and to announce the heavenly ministration of the typical day of atonement in fullfillment of Daniel 8:14 and Leviticus 23:24-32 just as God planned it.

The application error was man made and corrected at a latter date at God's appointed time. The prophetic periods were just how God wanted them.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You forgot the shut door in 1844. Those who had rejected it before that were already toast, according to Ellen White, because they would not believe an anti-biblical date setting false prophecy.

Not really, the shut door discussion we have already discussed this is only your repitition here.

The “Shut Door” Defined

For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled us to see the true position.

I am still a believer in the shut-door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents.

There was a shut door in Noah's day. There was at that time a withdrawal of the Spirit of God from the sinful race that perished in the waters of the Flood. God Himself gave the shut-door message to Noah:

“My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3).

There was a shut door in the days of Abraham. Mercy ceased to plead with the inhabitants of Sodom, and all but Lot, with his wife and two daughters, were consumed by the fire sent down from heaven.

There was a shut door in Christ's day. The Son of God declared to the unbelieving Jews of that generation, “Your house is left unto you desolate” (Matthew 23:38).

Looking down the stream of time to the last days, the same infinite power proclaimed through John:“These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth” (Revelation 3:7)

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That means it was false. If it was half right, that is all wrong, because Jesus did not come in 1844. And she condemned the people who rejected that wrong message.

Not at all, the time period was correct and just how God wanted it. The application was not correct and this was corrected at a latter date. The Millerite movement made a mistake in the application. The time period and fulfillment of God's WORD was how he wanted it.

Sorry tall, your application to the first vision is not a correct one as it also includes what is to come.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Indeed, now what has this got to do with the SDA Church who do not teach a day or hour and was founded in 1863?

It has everything to do with it when Ellen White is condemning those who rejected Miller's message. She wrote Spiritual Gifts volume 1 much later than her first vision, and still condemned those people who rightly rejected Miller's false message.

Now tall, this is where you have your problem. Do you think that just maybe, God may have provided this as a testing time to see who really loved the coming of the Lord and who did not?

Abraham was tested to offer his son as a burn't offering. Could it be possible that the first vision, given after the great dissappointment of the Millerite movement, that maybe this vision is referring not only to the past, but to future events? Only God tests and knows the heart.

Once again error in a message does not make the truth in it no longer truth, that is within a message. The error was the application of Daniel 8:14 to the 2nd coming from William Miller. On this we can both agree. This is not the application and belief of the SDA Church and never has been.

The time line of the prophetic period used in Daniel 8:14 however was correct. The application was latter revealed just as God wanted it to be and that was to the ministration of Jesus in the heavenly Sanctuary and the antitype of the great day of atonement and investigative judgment.

Only God knows the heart of all those invloved there during the Millerite movement who was for God and who was against him. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed.

We are all held accountable to God for what we know not what we do not know. We are not to judge another this is God's work not ours as it is God who tests all.

When EGW had her first vision after Oct 22nd 1844 she did not prophesy anything before that time and did not speak this vision in the name of the Lord. So your point in posting these scriptures is?

The point is that years after her first vision she still talked about how Miller's message was "heavenly" and "truth", and how God judged people on it, even though they correctly rejected the false date-setting prophecy.

It was a heavenly message designed to fulfill God's will as it fulfilled the application of the Feast of Trumpets and also announced the timing of Christs work and minsitration on our behalf on the great day of atonement in fulfillment of Daniel 8:14 and the propetic time period of the 2300 year day prophecy prior to his soon return.

But as we both agree however the application to the 2nd coming from William Miller was not correct. God revealed the correct meaning at a latter date after the great dissappointment.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Oh, shame on me? I am not the one claiming a prophet who is still supporting a false message after it was obvious it was false.

Ellen White wrote this in the 1850's, still condemning those who rejected Millers false date-setting message.

Ellen White is still considered an inspired author by your church. It is still quite relevant.

It is indeed shame on you. No one is saying that the Millerite movement had the correct application of the scriptures to the 2nd coming. EGW's application was to the prophetic time period as being correct not the application to the 2nd coming. You statement's application that EGW's application is to the 2nd coming is a false one.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I would dispute it is a half-truth. But how are my half truth's deceptive, and Miller's heavenly?

A half truth is not true.

Your making statements in regards to the Millerite message as being completely false because of their application was to the 2nd coming when the prophetic time period was correct.

We both agree that the application was not corerct. You are stating that because the application was not correct the whole message was not correct.

This is where we are in disagreement.

The prophetic time calculations were indeed correct. This resulted in the fulfillment of the Feasts of Trumpets and the beginning of the ministration of Christ in the great day of atonement and the investigative judgment outlined in Leviticus 23:24-32; Daniel 8:14 and Daniel 7:10.

The Millterite movement resulted in the fulfillment of these scriptures and a message that went to the world in preparation for the 2nd coming. The application was indeed wrong. The prophetic time period was not. The application was corrected by God at the appointed time.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

We have to keep addressing it as long as you are saying half truths are true.

Now tall, I have never said a half truths make everything true. Once again error in a message does not make the truth in a message no longer truth within a message.

The error was the application of Daniel 8:14 to the 2nd coming from William Miller. On this we can both agree. This is not the application and belief of the SDA Church. The time line of the prophetic period used in Daniel 8:14 from the Millerite movement however was correct.

The application was latter revealed just as God wanted it to be at the appointed time to the ministration of Jesus in the heavenly Sanctuary and the antitype of the great day of atonement and investigative judgment.

Indeed it is not complicated.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

At that point God had given no explicit law against sacrificing children as He did later. He clearly does not want that. But He gave Abraham the command and then told him not to.

So in your view in Abrhams day, it was ok to murder your children as long as it was a sacrifice because God did not tell them not to sacrifice their Children? Yet we see the story of Cain and Able and Cain being punished for murder in Genesis.

The point of the illustration here was to show that God gave a testing message to see what was in Abrahams heart. The message given by God was not according to God's law or his will as to be carried out. It was however, a test from God to see what was in Abrahams heart, which God latter told Abraham was not his will but only a test.

Can you really not see the point and parrallels here to the 1833-1844 movement?

LGW wrote; Your application here in your first sentence is deceptive. Adventist being referred to was people out of the Millerite movement not the SDA Church.

Incorrect. Look it up:
E.G.White, "Testimonies for the Church Volume Four"
She is addressing the people after a vision at the Battle Creek camp meeting.

My earlier post to you was referring to all those from the Millerite movement being referred to as Adventists and making a distingtion between the Adventists of the Millerite movement
and Seventh Day Adventists who were not founded until 1863 which do not hold to the application of the scriptures in the Millerite movement to the 2nd coming. Everyone associated with the Millerite movement and the different groups that came out of this movment were called "Adventists" You misunderstood my earlier post to you.

Besides, she couldn't say that about the Millerite movement, because that was the time she thought it was right to preach definite time!

Now tall, you know this was before the first vision was given after the great dissappointment of the Millerite movement not before. So this is irrelavant.