GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

tall73

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LoveGodsWord

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The high priest was the one who did the work in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. So if you are saying that is not the work of the high priest, then you are acknowledging what I already agree with-- that the books are not related to the priest's work in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

I think you are missing the point made earlier and that is yes Jesus is our sacrifice, yes Jesus is our great high priest ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary. Yes it is God that does the investigative judgment (not for his benefit but for heavens). What you are missing here is that yes it is God that does the judgment but Jesus is also God, Man, Priest and sacrifice. Judgment is God's work. Jesus is also God (John 1:1-3; 14).

It involved an application of blood in God's presence. Jesus already appeared in God's presence for us per Hebrews 9:23-25. So that happened. That is the basis of the atonement.

No it isn't. This has already been discussed in Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 9. The reason that Jesus can appear in God's presenece is because he is the sinless sacrifice. This is not talking about the cleansing of the Sanctuary and God's Juddgment which once again we are told in scripture does not take place until after the judgment of the little horn (Daniel 7:10; Daniel 8:13-14). If what you were saying is correct the little Horn would already be judged and the kingdom already given to God's people which is a reference to judgments given and the 2nd coming. Obviously this has not taken place so your application of the scriptures here teaching the Sanctuary is already cleansed is not correct.

Notice where they are going--to the throne of grace--analogous to the mercy seat. Jesus already provided the blood application and sat down. Now He ministers the results as we respond, and go to Him at the throne of grace.

Access to the throne of grace is conditonal according to God's WORD as is acess to the mercy seat. The mercy seat was directly on top of the Ark of the Covenant that held the 10 Commandments. The scriptures tell us the grace is given for obedience to the faith and the God's mercy is only given to those who believe and follow his WORD (Romans 1:5; 16:26; Exodus 20:6)

God's 10 Commandments were the foundation of the mercy seat.

EXODUS 25:21 And you shall put the mercy seat above on the ark; and in the ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you.

Mercy is only given to those who by faith believe God's WORD and have repented from their sins and have been forgiven and chosen to follow God's Word. These are the condtions of Mercy..

EXODUS 20:6 And showing mercy to thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Which is why Jesus says...

JOHN 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

and again..

JOHN 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

God's mercy is conditional and this is what is determined in the investigative Judgment and the removal of sin from the presenese of God at the great day of atonement in the Heavenly Sanctuary which the scriptures talk about in Daniel 7:10 and Daniel 8:13-14. This takes place after the 2300 day/year prophecy of Daniel 8:13-14.

This is not spelled out in the NT. I expect this will relate to the removal of all sin from the world at the end, in line with the timing of the feast. But what is spelled out already in the NT is Jesus' application of blood in the sanctuary, in Day of Atonement terms.

Much of the shadow laws in ordinances are not spelled out in the NT but the books of DANIEL and REVELATIONS tell the story especially when linked to an understanding of the annual feasts of Leviticus 26 and 23.

And in the fulfillment that would not work, because then only a small portion of Christians would ever experience it, instead of the whole camp. Jesus performed the one sacrifice, one entry, and one appearance in God's presence which resulted in the purification for sins in the first century. Then all Christians could realize that they come to Him at the mercy seat to receive grace.

Not really for those living during this time we are told many are called but few are chosen. All will be judged on what they know, not what they do not know (James 4:17)

.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Those quotes referenced primarily v. 23-25 of Hebrews 9.

So can you clarify, is Hebrews 9:23-25 referencing the Day of Atonement? And if so, what do you think is the meaning of Hebrews 9:23-25?

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Places every year with blood of another

I do not think you understood my posts here. I have never said the book of Hebrews does not talk about the day of atonement. I disagreed however that your reference to Hebrews 1:3 was a reference to the completed day of atoenement by providing scriptures from Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 9 showing that Christs priesthood is different from the earlthy.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Corporate provision for all sins, making purification for sin, has nothing to do with the Day of Atonement?
I think you missed a few points.

Well this is twisiting what I have posted and never said. I already said in previous response posts to you that the scripture in Hebrews 1:3 is in reference to Christs complete sacrifice then provided scriptures from Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 9 to show his ministration and why he can sit in the presence of God. This is different to the earthly Levitical order of sinful man of which the earthly was only a copy. Mankind is sinful. Jesus was not.
 
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tall73

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I do have not ever read anywhere that Miller clamed to be inspired by dreams and visions rfom God, Or ever claimed to be a prophet? As far as I know he only shared scriptures from a bible study in relation to Daniel 8:14 which was refined over time.

Are you accusing him of something that he never did or claimed to be?

I already told you. Ellen White said his message was from God.

Haven't you read Early Writings?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Jesus making purification for all sins is not daily ministration. It is corporate, complete, purification. Hebrews 1:3b when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high. This is not describing the daily ministration. Unless there was no daily ministration after the first century. The events described there are completed already. It was the corporate purification of sins.

This post shows a lack of understanding of the purpose of the day of atonement. The daily ministration of the Sanctuary was for provision of sin committed on a day to day basis. The yearly day of atonement was for the removal of sin from the presence of God only done once a year. You should know this from your backgournd already. Happy to provide the scriptures if you need them.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You are clearly confused. I never said blood application is not the purpose of the sanctuary. It certainly is!

And that is what Jesus did in the first century, death, entry into God's presence, and purification for sins.

What I said was Daniel 7 doesn't mention it, because it is not talking about that.

Hello tall, there is no confusion here, I have already stated many times already that I agree that Christs sacrifice is once and for all and covers all sin both now and into the future for forgiveness of sin. What I am disagreeing is your application that the day of atonement has already been completed. The scriptures in Daniel 8 show that it clearly has not at the little horn is still continuing and the judgement takes place after the activities of the little horn as decribed in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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They clearly relate to the restoring of the sanctuary from the defilement of the little horn. The defilement of the little horn, and its subsequent removal, is not the same as the Day of Atonement.

Ineed so then you must agree that if the defilement is removed, the Sanctuary and the daily restored as well as God's truth at the end of the 2300 day/years the day of atonement to which refers to the cleansing of the Sanctuary has not taken place. Also the judgement is not completed because the little horn is still ative. Your interpretation of the above disagrees with the scriptures on Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 on many levels.

It is not mentioned at all in Daniel 7 or 8. Nor would it need to be. The judgment is on powers, and they are not in the book of life.

We are told in DANIEL 7:10 that the books of the judgment were opened. We are told in other scriptures what those books are. One of them is the book of life, the other the book of remembrance (Rev 3:5; 8; 17:8; 20:12-13; 15; Mal 3:16). There is no need to guess what the books of the judgment are referring to here.

But Daniel 7 does not show the judgment on God's people. It shows judgment on the little horn, fourth beast, and allows the other three beasts to survive. The saints are referenced only as the beneficiaries, and corporately as a group being delivered, not scrutinized, etc.

Of course Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 show the judgement of God's people. This is why it is referring to the restoration of the Sanctuary and the daily sacrifice. However, reference is to the Heavenly Sanctuary not the earthly. What was the purpose and work of the Sanctuary? It is for the cleansing of sin from God's people and also the removal of sin from God's presence. If it is restored then it's purpose continues. This takes place according to God's Word after the 2300 day/year prophecy. This is why the books are opened to see who stays in the book of life and who is blotted out at the time of the judgement (Daniel 7:10; 8:14).

Not the work of the high priest in the sanctuary, no. That involved corporate provision for sin in the form of blood. There were no books, there were no records, there was provision of blood.

Now in regards to the activity of the people, yes. They either accepted the work done by the priest, or they did not. They either followed the prescriptions or not. And as I mentioned, I see some of the elements of the Day of Atonement being carried out in the end times. Though these are not spelled out in the NT as to their fulfillment, so the most we can do is figure based on the type.

But the sacrifice, entry, presentation before the Father, already happened. Purification for sins already happened. And that was the work of the high priest in the sanctuary.

My question was not in relation to the earthly Sanctuary and daily remission of sin as the context we are discussing is the Heavenly is the judgment and the cleasning of the Sanctuary. This day of atonement is different to the daily. It was a time for repentance and prayer, seeking God and affliction of soul (Leviticus 23:24-32). This was for the removal of sin from the presence of God.

The soul searching of God's people during this time was to determine if their sins confessed throughout the year and brought into the Sanctuary through blood sacrifice was indeed repented of and forsaken before being finally removed from the Sanctuary to the scapegoats (Leviticus 16). This is a different process to the daily forgiveness of sin through blood sacrifice. Those who did not partake of this process God

So what you have written here is not relevant to the day of atonement the scriptures talk about which is for the judgment of God's people. Those who did not partake of this service were cut off from God's people. Some were put to death. This is symbolic of the work of the Heavenly Sanctuary after its restoration which Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 point to after the establishment of the little horn.

Hope this helps.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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No, in fact it is not about the DOA whether heavenly or earthly. The Day of Atonement cleansing is from the sins of all people.

The day of atonement is indeed for the cleansing of all God's people collectively. Perhaps it may help to ask a question here.

What is the difference then between the daily sacrifice for sin when God's people received forgiveness individually through blood sacrifice and the day of atonement?

If God's people already received forgiveness individually doesn't that (in your view) mean they have received God's forgiveness collectively?

This is were you are running into trouble. The day of Atonement was for the removal of sin from the presence of God and the cleasning of the Sanctuary which is a direct reference to Daniel 8:13-14.

The restoration in Daniel 8 is from the activity of the little horn.

No it is not as this does not take place until after the judgement and the cleansing of the Sanctuary (Daniel 7:8-14; Daniel 8:13-14)

Now, if you take it to be the Catholic system of confession, etc., that is in fact still going on. So that has not stopped. And if you take it to mean the understanding of Jesus in the Day of Atonement, Adventists were the only ones particularly confused on the point. Other Christians already realized Jesus made corporate purification for all sins, in the first century.

Not at all. This only means that the judgment is not completed and is still going on in Heaven according to the scriptures. The judgments to the little horn are only applied after the judgment has been completed. Your comments above are not relevant to the scriptures being discussed. Dominion of the little horn takes place after the judgement. Not while the judgment is still in progress.

Hope this helps..


.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You say indeed, acknowledging that Daniel 7 nowhere mentions the book of life. But then you immediately jump to a different context where the book of life is included. The other places where it is included it is clear it is talking about a judgment on individuals. And it is included because individuals will be found or not in the book.

We are told in DANIEL 7:10 that the books of the judgment were opened. We are told in other scriptures what those books are. One of them is the book of life, the other the book of remembrance (Rev 3:5; 8; 17:8; 20:12-13; 15; Mal 3:16).

There is no need to guess what the books of the judgment are referring to here. God's WORD tell us what books are used in the judgment.
 
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tall73

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Why would it need to? Rome conqoured part of the empire of one of the four horns and grew out if it and was a separate kingdom the grew exceeding great. In the year 161 B.C., Rome became connected with the Jews by the famous Jewish League, 1 Mac. 8; Josephus' Antiq., b. xii., chap. x., sec. 6; Prideaux, vol. ii., p. 166. Nations are noticed in prophecy when they become connected with God's people. Right here the conquering legions of the Roman power came into the prophet's view. But just seven years before this, B.C. 168, Rome had conquered Macedonia (one of the four horns of the goat), adding it to its empire. And as if coming from that horn, the prophet beholds it from that point pursuing its triumphant career. It is therefore spoken of as coming forth from that horn.


The prominent horn was not broken off then. It was broken off during Alexander's day. And a power that conquers one of the four is not coming out of one of the four.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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we already looked at this text and agreed it is referencing the persecution of Christians in Peter's day.

I did not agree that the scripture here is only in reference to persecution in Peter's day did I?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Jesus knows His sheep. There is no confusion who to raise. And when we actually appear before Him we bow the knee, we confess, we give an account. So there is no need for a protracted investigation either.
But the larger point is that Daniel 7 pictures no such thing. And you have read the book of life into a text that does not mention it. And you have read an individual judgment in to a text that is judging powers.

I think your missing the point of the scriptures posted here. The cases of the righteous are already decided before the 2nd Coming. I have not read the book of life into Daniel 7 at all. It is God's word that tells us what the books of the Judgment are. There is no need to be confused here as the scriptures make it very clear what books are used in the judgment (Rev 3:5; 8; 17:8; 20:12-13; 15; Mal 3:16).
 
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LoveGodsWord

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we looked at that earlier in the thread, and reviewed how it does not in fact mean this.

Of course it can we are talking about the judgment and the heavenly Sanctuary after the 2300 day/year prophecy of Daniel 8:13-14.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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If Daniel 8:14 said "at the great day of atonement" we wouldn't be having this conversation! Instead the cleansing is from the activity of the little horn.

Not really, judgment is delivered at the 2nd coming * Revelations 22:12. The investigative judgement takes place before the 2nd coming (Daniel 7:10; 8:13-14)

Now, we still agree that those who endure to the end will be saved.

Agreed :oldthumbsup:

However, the blood work, the part related to what the high priest did in the sanctuary, is already completed.

If your saying here that the blood sacrifice has been provided for fallen mankind for all sin, then yes we are in agreement. If your saying that the Day of atonement has been completed then no God's Word does not teach this. The sacrifice as been provided already by Jesus for all sin. This is what we agree on here.

However, no the day of atonement and Christ's duties in the heavenly Sanctuary as our great high priest for the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the removal of sin from the presence of God has not been completed. This is what Leviticus 16; 23 and Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 and Revelations talk about with the timing of the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the Heavenly judgement.

The purification for sins is made, and that is what was pointed to in the DOA portion that relates to the entry into God's presence. Now we either accept it or not in real time.

No Jesus was not a sinner and not of the Levitical priesthood. His acceptance into the presence of God is because he is sinless. This was highlighted already by sharing the scriptures earlier in Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 9. Hebrews 1:3 has nothing to do with the great day of atonement as outlined in Leviticus for the cleansing of the Sanctuary accept the Christ is both our sacrifice for sin and our great high priest.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Please explain what you are talking about here: "man made books written in the earthly"?

The books open in the judgment are the book of life and the book of rememberance (deeds and acts). There are is more then one book as the Hebrew word used here is plural.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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It says the books were opened. The books refer to the book of records. It says the books, and I referred to the books. The book of life is not mentioned. It is described separately in Rev. 20. It is described as another book.

No not at all. You are saying that the books referred to in the judgment referred to is the book of records.

This application cannot be true by itself because the application to scripture in the Hebrew word for book here is 5609. סְפַר c̨ephar (Chald.), sef-ar´; from a root corresp. to 5608; a book:—book, roll. (masculine referring to God's ownership) plural more than one book.

This is a plural meaning of God's books used in the judgement (context). That is why the the scriptures were provided earlier to show what are God's books used in the judgement. These are 1. God's book of life and 2. God's book of remembrance (Rev 3:5; 8; 17:8; 20:12-13; 15; Mal 3:16).

Can you see here that your application is not correct? The Hebrew word here is plural meaning more then one book is used. A word study on the scriptures show that there are only two books used in the judgement which include the book of life and the book of remembrance (deeds; acts). Together these are the books used in the judgment that are opened in Daniel 7:10.

Hope this helps...
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Yes, He rewards them at His coming. That of course is not an IJ. And what day will the Righteous Judge award it? At His coming. And Paul says he already finished his race. His reward is already waiting for the awards ceremony. Paul knows the outcome, and he gets the crown. No IJ needed.

Sorry tall,

I think you missed the point here again. Revelations 20:11-12 is saying that God's reward is with him at the 2nd coming for his people. For God's rewards to be with him the for the Judment is completed before the 2nd coming.

God's judgment is before completed before the 2nd coming when he proclaims...

REVELATION 22:11-12 [11], He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. [12], And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Don't know if it gets much clearer then that.
 
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tall73

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It seems you are making an argument that I am not making or can I see how what you have written above relates to what you are responding to. Are you saying that the day of atonement is the same as the daily and the purpose is the same? If you are then please tell me why have a day of atonement in the first place?



No, I am saying the sin offering does not transfer sin. The text says as plain as day that whatever it touches becomes holy.

The sin offerings were a picture of personal confession for individual sins.

The Day of Atonement is a picture of corporate cleansing of the people, the sanctuary, etc.

Those are not the same. But Jesus fulfilled all of it with His one death, and presentation.

 
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No, I am saying the sin offering does not transfer sin. The text says as plain as day that whatever it touches becomes holy.

The sin offerings were a picture of personal confession for individual sins.

The Day of Atonement is a picture of corporate cleansing of the people, the sanctuary, etc.

Those are not the same. But Jesus fulfilled all of it with His one death, and presentation.

Seems you are not reading the posts I have provided for you. I agree with the above what you are not seeing however is that the day of atonement is also for the removal of sin from the presence of God with the scapegoats and also the cleansing of the Sanctuary from the defilement of the sins from God's people. This is why Leviticus 16 was posted and highlighted.
 
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