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GOD'S LAW (10 commandments) ARE FOREVER!

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by LoveGodsWord, Sep 1, 2017.

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  1. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The ceremonial laws are essentially God's instructions for how to have a holy conduct, such as Leviticus 11:44-45, so they are the standard of holiness. Is it really your position that God's commands to observe his holy days had nothing to do with holiness?

    My point is that you are misunderstanding that verse as saying that cross was used as a means of disposing of outdated ceremonial laws. You error is that when you see the word "law" you think about just the Ten Commandments when the people would have understood it as referring to all of God's laws.

    God's Law is inclusive of everything that He commanded through Moses, so when you speak against obeying the ceremonial laws, you are speaking against obeying God's Law. Even when the Law was given to Moses, there was not a single law that everyone was required to obey, and not even Jesus was able to obey the laws in regard to giving birth or to a woman's period. So some of the laws were only for the King, the High Priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, widows, people living in the land, strangers living among them, and for everyone. Many of the laws also have further conditions under which they apply, such as traffic laws that only apply during certain hours or the command to keep the Sabbath that only applies when it is the 7th day. So if there is nothing wrong with not keeping the Sabbath when it is a Tuesday, then there is nothing wrong not keeping laws in regard to temple practice when there is not a temple in which to practice them. The condition for the Israelites who were in exile in Babylon to return was for them to obey God's Law, which required having access to a temple that they didn't have while in exile, so God counted them doing what they could do as full obedience. So there is a difference between doing away with a law and saying that the conditions under which it applies are not met.

    In Acts 18:18, Paul took a Nazarite vow which involved making offerings (Numbers 6) and in Acts 21:20-24, Paul was on his way to pay the expenses for others who had taken a similar vow in order to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Law and to show that he still continued to live in obedience to it. This is quite clearly referring to more than just the Ten Commandments. So offerings did not stop with the death and resurrection of Messiah, but only stopped with the destruction of the temple. However, the Bible prophecies a time when the third and fourth temple will be built and when offerings will resume (Ezekiel 44-46).
     
  2. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    How can the Holy Spirit be the seal of GOD when he is GOD?
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  3. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Your prophetess, when she started out did not believe God was Father, Son and Holy Spirit. She was persuaded by those around her to change her view
     
  4. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    sorry righteousness can not be obtained by observing the law. It is Christs righteousness that is credited to our account. No righteousness through works. Because of our response to GODS grace we are led to keep the law.
     
  5. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Really?
    Well an sda member in a thread where many other sda members took part flat out said:
    Our justification is obeying the TC. Not one of the other sda members in the thread corrected him.
    To please a friend, for two months I attended an sdachurch( what an eye opener) everyone I spoke to there, in reality believed in justification of observing the law.
    LGW states you cannot be in a saved state unless you observe the law. Therefore in his view you can only be righteous before God if you observe the law( despite his protestations to the contrary)
     
  6. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    And the your point is?
     
  7. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    I cannot answer for those other SDA members.

    No idea who LGW is he is unknown to me.
     
  8. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    He started this thread. He, like you is SDA.

    If you say being in a saved state hinges on observing the law, it is the same as saying you can only be righteous before God if you observe the law. For the righteous are in a saved state. The unrighteous are not
     
  9. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    This is SDA position on Justification
    "... knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." Galatians 2:16 NKJV
     
  10. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    The sda are contradictory, for in the practical reality of people's lives who attend the church, they can only be in a saved state( justified) if they obey the TC
     
  11. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    God's Word includes ceremonial laws and God's Word made flesh set a perfect example for his followers to follow of how to live in obedience to those laws, so by speaking against obeying God's ceremonial laws, you are speaking against obeying God's Word.

    The covenant that God originally intended to make with Israel was one where they would hear and obey His voice (Exodus 19:5), but upon hearing God's voice they got cold feet and want God to speak to Moses and for them to listen to Moses instead (Exodus 20:19), so God nevertheless agreed to a different covenant with them and it became necessary for Moses to write down God's laws in lieu of hearing God voice instruct them about how to walk in God's ways in accordance with his holiness, righteousness, and goodness (Deuteronomy 5:22-33). This was less than ideal because while Moses was a great man, he could not be everywhere, and this quickly led to problems that would not have occurred if they had been listening to God's voice. There are many verses that describe the Mosaic covenant as a marriage between God and Israel, so this was exactly like a man rescuing his girlfriend from captivity, proposing to her, and her agreeing, but on her wedding day deciding that she only wanted to interact with her husband through a mediator, which he nevertheless agreed to do because of his love for her. So all of the Mosaic Law is there to teach how to have an intimate relationship with God and it is sin to disobey any of it. In 1 John 3:4, it does not specify that it is speaking only about ten of God's laws, practicing righteousness is not limited to only to only ten of God's commands, and Cain murdering Able is just an example of practicing evil. The Mosaic Law is the perfect and royal law of freedom (Psalms 19:7, Psalms 119:45)

    If you agree that sin comes by not obeying God, then you should agree that sin also comes by not obeying what God commanded through Moses. The Mosaic Law is the way to live as a citizen in God's Kingdom, not the way to become a citizen. Again, if you agree that we should live by all of God's Word, then you should agree that we should obey ceremonial laws because they are part of God's Word.
     
  12. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    The righteousness that we receive is Christs not ours. IF we sin and ask forgiveness then by the grace of GOD these sins are covered by his righteousness.

    Remember GOD came to save us from our sins not in our sins. Must have true repentance.

    With the Holy Spirits help I try to keep the law out of Love for Jesus Christ not to try and save myself.
    The law is the Character of Jesus Christ.

    Many find grace in the New Testament, but there is also plenty of grace in the Old Testament as well. While Paul says no flesh will be justified by works, that includes those in the Old Testament as well. Those living during Old Testament and New Testament times are all saved by “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”Revelation 13:8 NKJV
     
  13. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    I was raised in a church, that where this point is concerned where much like the sda in their thinking.
    If you say to someone:
    You are saved by grace through faith, but remaining in a saved state hinges on observing the law.
    You then place them under a righteousness of observing the law.

    I chatted to one sda member. They said to me:
    Must a person obey the TC to be a christian/ in a saved state

    When I replied:no
    They shook their head and burst out laughing.
     
  14. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    Can you answer my question in post #143

    And provide a verse that supports what you stated that the Holy Spirit is the the seal of GOD.
     
  15. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    honey do time again be back later

    God be with you all
     
  16. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Saying that by grace through faith we are required to be careful to obey all of God's commands is not the same saying that we must obey God through our own efforts because, as I said, it is by grace through faith, which is not through our own efforts. Being saved from our sins necessarily involves being made into someone who does not sin. In Titus 2:11-14, it says that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to refrain from doing what is ungodly and sinful, which is essentially what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do. Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Mosaic Law was how they knew what they should be repenting of doing, so repenting from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law is an integral part of the Gospel message. Love fulfills the Mosaic Law because that is essentially what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct us how to do.

    In Deuteronomy 6:20-24, obeying the Mosaic Law is about having faith in Him to save them from slavery in Egypt, faith in God to defeat Pharaoh, faith in God to bring them to the land that He swore to their fathers, faith in God that His commands our for our own good, and faith in God to preserve us, so it is by faith that we are are declared righteous and by the same faith that we are to be careful to live in obedience to all of God's commands. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace to bring about the obedience that faith requires.

    All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160) and none of those verses specify that only the Ten Commandments were given to reveal what sin is.
     
  17. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Read post 132, a follow up.
    Can you read post 133 and answer my question in it please
     
  18. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples did not keep the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the traditions of the elders for the sake of their tradition. He then went on to say that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they worshiped God in vain because they taught as doctrines the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9) and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God for the sake of their tradition (Mark 7:6-9), so that major problem that Jesus had with the Pharisees was that they were not teaching people to obey the Mosaic Law, and that what they were teaching as the Mosaic Law was in fact their own traditions.

    When Jesus quoted Scripture, he preceeded by saying "it is written", but when he was quoting from what the people had heard the teachers of the Law teaching, he preceded it by saying "you have heart that it was said". So in Matthew 5, Jesus was not speaking against obeying what God had commanded, but rather he was correcting what was wrongly being taught about it and teaching how it was originally intended to be understood and obeyed. For example:

    Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

    While the Law certainly commands us to love our neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), it does not command us to hate our enemy, so that is what was wrong being taught about the Law.

    God's love is infinitely greater than we can comprehend, but that does not mean that we can be taught the principle of love and how to reflect God's love to the world by grace through faith.

    The Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to love Him and our neighbor, so if we are walking in love, then we are walking in obedience to them.
     
  19. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Oh come on friend. Would Jesus steal, kill commit adultery and etc? No, because He loves us. If we love others as He loves us we too will not cause pain to our fellow man. That is so easy and because people's minds are closed they insist on doing it their way.
     
  20. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Your posts are becoming more erratic all the time .
    Under the OC the law hung on love God and love your neighbour, but were they the only laws that existed?

    So do Gods laws exist or don't they?
    One minute you say yes, the next no
     
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