GOD'S LAW (10 commandments) ARE FOREVER!

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LoveGodsWord

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Friends,

It is important to believe all of God's Word because that is where life to the believer comes from (Matthew 4:4). It will be the Word of God that will judge us in the last days (John 12:47-48). Salvation is from sin and not in sin. If your faith leads to a life of known unrepentant sin you have not been born again and do not know Jesus and do not have the faith of God’s Word (James 2:20).

The Gospel is not Jesus calling the righteous but sinners to repentance (Matthew 9:13). Whosoever commits sin is a servant of sin and if the son shall make you free you shall be free indeed (John 8:34-36). Jesus says, Marvel not that I say unto you, Ye must be born again. (John 3:7) because whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9). Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God (Luke 8:11).

It is only by faith in God's Word that we have salvation from sin. Jesus says; If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free from sin (John 8:31-36). For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8). Only sinners that need a Savior have salvation because the sinner knows he cannot save himself (Matthew 9:13; John 15:5). We are not saved by God's Law (Romans 3:20). God's Law gives us a knowledge of sin and brings us to Jesus so we can be saved (1 John 3:4; Romans 3:30; Romans 7:7; Galatians 3:24).

There is no Gospel without God's Law because there is no knowledge of sin. If there is no knowledge of sin there is no need of a Savior. If there is no need of a Savior there is no salvation. If there is no salvation you are lost and without hope and the scripture is fulfilled for as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law (Romans 2:12). Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law (Romans 3:31).

Now it’s time for an intermission and the reason why we love him..


We love him because he first loved us (1 John 4:19). Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 13:9-10; Romans 8:4).. Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments... (John 14:15) If you are not you are not following God and do not have the love of God in you (1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-10) All I can say is that I love Jesus and wish you all only love, joy and peace in the Holy Ghost who God gives to those that obey him through faith (Acts 5:32).

James tells us that if we break one of God’s commandments we are guilty before God of breaking all of God’s Law and are in danger of the judgement. (James 2:8-12). This includes God’s 4th commandment, the 7th day Sabbath.

In Christ Always!
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I think you don't understand my post. I believe it is in agreement with your quoted post. It's a disagreement with the OP.

This is quite funny because you guys were having a big debate with Stuart and others about your understanding of God's Law for the last 3-4 pages in the COL 2:14-17 THE REAL TRUTH! thread and could not agree. I think from memory some of you were saying God's Law was abolished, others were saying it was not abolished and others were saying you only need to keep 9 commandments instead of 10? That was the reason for opening the discussion in this new thread so the we could stay on the OP for each thread. Now all of a sudden you guys all believe the same thing? Amazing! :oldthumbsup:

Maybe someone can tell me now is someone practicing known, unrepentant sin in a saved or unsaved sate? Are these people believers or Unbelievers in God's Word?
 
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Soyeong

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Hi All,

Just posting this here because there seems to be some confusion by some about God's Law (10 commandments) and there role in the Old Covenant, New Covenant and the judgement to come. Hope this is helpful to those that love God's Word.

God's Law (10 commandments). While Christ's death ended the authority of the ceremonial law (laws of Moses), it established the Ten Commandments. Christ took away the curse of the law, thereby liberating believers from its condemnation. His doing so, however, did not mean that the law was abolished, giving us liberty to violate its principles. The abundant testimony of Scripture regarding the perpetuity of the law, refutes such a view.

Hello,

Christ's death had nothing to do with ending any laws. In 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a reference to Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, also known as ceremonial laws. If the way to act in accordance with God's holiness changed with the death of Christ, then God's holiness also changed, but God's holiness is eternal and does not change. Crosses were never uses as a means of disposing of outdated laws, but rather what was written on crosses were the charges against the person being crucified (Matthew 27:37), which fits perfectly with our transgressions against God's Law being nailed to Christ's cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our our sins, but does not fit at all with Christ dying to set us free from need to obey what God has commanded. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Christ gave himself to redeem from the Law, but to redeem us from all Lawlessness. According to Deuteronomy 30:15-20, obedience to the law brings life and a blessing, while disobedience to the law brings death and a curse, so by being set free from the curse of the law we have been set free from living in disobedience to it so that we might be free to live for God in obedience to His Law. The Law minus its condemnation remains a set of holy, righteous, and good instructions for how to walk in God's ways.

Paul described the relationship between obedience and the gospel of saving grace. Calling believers to holy living, he challenged them to present themselves "as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall have no dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace" (Rom. 6:13, 14). So Christians do not keep the law to obtain salvation—those who try to do so will only find a deeper enslavement to sin. "As long as a man is under law he remains also under the dominion of sin, for law cannot save one from either the condemnation or the power of sin. But those who are under grace receive not only release from condemnation (Rom. 8:1), but also power to overcome (Rom. 6:4). Thus sin no longer will have dominion over them."23

It is inconsistent to say that believers are called to holy living while saying that God's instructions for how to do that were ended at the cross. God never required anyone to obey His Law in order to become saved, but rather the one and only way to become saved has only ever been by grace through faith, and by the same grace through the same faith we are required to be careful to obey all of God's commands. According to Romans 4:1-8, Abraham and David were justified by faith, so this is how everyone in the OT was able to become justified, and God had no need to provide an alternative and unobtainable means of becoming justified when a perfectly good means of justification by faith was already in place.

In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Mosaic Law and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive and that he served with his flesh. This is a summary of what he said previously, so it is the law of sin that came about to increases tresspasses (5:20), that stirs up sinful passions to bear fruit unto death (7:5), that held us captive (7:6), that gives sin its power (7:8), that deceived Paul through the commandment and killed him (7:11), and that caused him not to do the good that he wanted to do, while God's Law is not sin, but reveals what sin is (7:7), is holy, righteous, and good (7:12), is the good that Paul did not blame for bringing death to him (7:13), and is the good that Paul desired to do (7:13-20). In short, the law of sin is the law where sin had dominion over Paul.

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Paul specifies that the law we are not under is one where sin had dominion over him, which does not at all fit his description of God's holy, righteous, and good Law, but perfectly fits his description of the law of sin, so we are not under the law of sin when we are under grace. In Psalms 119:29, David asked God to show His grace to him by teaching him to obey His Law, so if we are under grace, then we are under the Mosaic Law. This is confirmed in Titus 2:11-14, where it describes our salvation as grace training us to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to refrain from doing what is ungodly and sinful, which is an accurate description of what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do.

"Christ," Paul added, "is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Rom. 10:4). Everyone, then, who believes in Christ realizes that He is the end of the law as a way of obtaining righteousness. In ourselves we are sinners, but in Jesus Christ we are righteous through His imputed righteousness.24

Romans 10:4 Christ is the goal of the Law, which leads to righteousness for all who have faith in God.

It makes no sense to translate "telos" as ending the law for righteousness when the Law was never given for righteousness in the first place. In Romans 9:30 - Romans 10:10, Israel did not fail to obtain righteousness because they did what God told them to and God gave them faulty instructions, but because they misunderstood the purpose of the law and thought that obeying it was about establishing their own righteousness. They had a zeal for God, but it wasn't based on knowledge because they didn't submit to God's righteousness. Rather, the purpose of obeying the Law is to grow in a relationship with Christ for righteousness for everyone who has faith. Our faith says that God's Law is not too difficult, but that it is near us, it is in our mouth, and in our heart, and this is what it means to submit to Christ as Lord. In Philippians 3:8, Paul counted it as rubbish to obey the Law without focusing on growing in a relationship with Christ because that was missing the entire point.

Yet being under grace does not give believers the license to "continue in sin that grace may abound" (Rom. 6:1). Rather, grace supplies the power that makes obedience and victory over sin possible. "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" (Rom. 8:1).

Christ's death magnified the law, upholding its universal authority. If the Decalogue could have been changed, He would not have had to die. But because this law is absolute and immutable, a death was required to pay the penalty it imposed. This requirement Christ fully satisfied by His death on the cross, making eternal life available to all who accept His magnificent sacrifice.

God's Law was given to reveal what sin is, which is much more than just 10 commands and God's grace does not permit us to sin by breaking those other commands, but rather we can have victory over sin by living in obedience to those commands. According to Psalms 119:160, all of God's righteous laws are eternal, not just ten of them.

Obedience to the Law
People cannot earn salvation by their good works. Obedience is the fruitage of salvation in Christ. Through His amazing grace, especially displayed at the cross, God has liberated His people from the penalty and curse of sin.

Though they were sinners, Christ gave His life to provide them with the gift of eternal life. God's abundant love awakens in the repentant sinner a response that manifests itself in loving obedience through the power of the grace so abundantly bestowed. Believers who understand that Christ values the law and who understand the blessings of obedience will be strongly motivated to live Christlike lives.

According to Matthew 11:28-30 and Jeremiah 6:16-19, the Mosaic Law is the good way where we will find rest for our souls, but if obeying the Law were about earning our salvation, then it would rob our souls of the rest that it was intended to give because we would never know if what we had done was good enough. So trying to become saved by obeying Law has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the Law and of God's character because it makes it out to be that what God primarily wanted for us was our obedience when since the beginning with God walking with Adam in the Garden what God has primarily wanted from us is an intimate relationship with Him, and the Law is His instructions for how to do that. It was never about what we need to do in order to become saved, but about what we are therefore required to do by grace through faith because we have been saved. We have been saved by grace through faith, not be doing good works, but for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). They way to live Christ-like lives is to do what is holy, righteous, and good like he did by walking in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and we are told that those who are in Christ ought to walk in the same way he did (1 John 2:3-6) and to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22).

Christ and the Law.
Christ had the highest regard for the ten-commandment law. As the great "I AM," He Himself proclaimed the Father's moral law from Sinai (John 8:58; Ex. 3:14; see chapter 4 of this book). Part of His mission on earth was to "magnify the law and make it honorable" (Isa. 42:21). A passage from the Psalms that the New Testament applies to Christ makes clear His attitude toward the law: "I delight to do Your will, O my God, and Your law is within my heart" (Ps. 40:8; cf. Heb. 10:5, 7).

His gospel produced a faith that firmly upheld the validity of the Decalogue. Said Paul, Do we "make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law" (Rom. 3:31).

So Christ came not only to redeem man but to vindicate the authority and holiness of the law of God, presenting its magnificence and glory before the people and giving them an example of how to relate to it. As His followers, Christians are called to magnify God's law in their lives. Having lived a life of loving obedience Himself, Christ stressed that His followers ought to be commandment keepers. When asked about the requirements for eternal life, He replied, "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matt. 19:17). He also warned against the violation of this principle, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." Lawbreakers will be refused entrance (Matt. 7:21-23).

None of these verses specify that they are talking about just the the Ten Commandments. There is no grounds to say that only ten of God's commands in His will while all of His other commands are not in accordance with His will. Morality is based off of God's character and all of God's laws are there to instruct us how to act in God's image and to reflect His character to the world, so all of God's laws are moral laws and it is always immoral to disobey any of God's commands. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so again all of God's laws are inherently moral laws, not just ten of them. David said that he delighted in God's Law a number of times throughout the Psalms, which Paul also did (Romans 7:22), and again there is nothing that specifies that they delighted in only obeying ten of God's commands.

Christ Himself fulfilled the law, not by destroying it but through a life of obedience. "Remember," He said, "that as long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the Law will be done away with" (Matt. 5:18, TEV). Christ strongly emphasized that the grand object of God's law must always be kept in mind: to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and your neighbor as yourself (Matt. 22:37, 38). However, He wanted His followers not to love one another as the world interprets love—selfishly or sentimentally. To explain the love He spoke of, Christ gave a "new commandment" (John 13:34). This new commandment was not to take the place of the Decalogue, but to provide believers with "an example of what true unselfish love really is, such love as had never before been witnessed on the earth. In this sense His commandment might be described as new. It charged them, not simply 'that ye love one another,' but 'that ye love one another, as I have loved you' (John 15:12).

Strictly speaking, we have here simply one more evidence of how Christ magnified His Father's laws."25

Pleroo: to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be

In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it, he said not the least part would disappear from the Law until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplished (both of which have not happened yet), and he warned that those who relax the least of the commands and teach others to do the same would be called least in the Kingdom, while those who obeyed them and taught others to do the same would be called great in the Kingdom. He then proceed to fulfill the law six times throughout the rest of the chapter by causing God's will as made known in the Law to be obeyed as it should be, and this included more than just the Ten Commandments. By only teaching obedience to ten commands, you are relaxing far more than he least of the laws. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus said that all of the Law and the Prophets hang on the greatest two commands, so there is again no room whatsoever to say that he was only speaking about ten commands. They are all God's instructions for how to love Him and our neighbor, and there is nothing brand new about the command to love our neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), but what is new is the quality of the example by which we are to love our neighbor.

Obedience reveals such love. Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments" (John 14:15). "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love" (John 15:10). Similarly, if we love God's people we love God and "keep His commandments" (1 John 2:3).

Jesus said that he teaching was not his own, but that of the Father, so his commandments were the same as the Father (John 14:23-24). And if he had commanded nothing, then he still would have taught obedience to more than just the Ten Commandments by example.

Only through abiding in Christ can we render heartfelt obedience.
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine," He said, "neither can you, unless you abide in Me. . . . He who abides in Me, and I in Him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing" (John 15:4, 5). To abide in Christ we must be crucified with Him and experience what Paul wrote of: "It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me" (Gal. 2:20). For those in this condition Christ can fulfill His new covenant promise: "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people" (Heb. 8:10).

I hate to sound like a broken record, but Hebrews 8:10 does not specify just the Ten Commandments.

Blessings of Obedience
. Obedience develops Christian character and produces a sense of well-being, causing the believers to grow up as "newborn babes" and to be transformed into Christ's image (see 1 Peter 2:2; 2 Cor. 3:18). This transformation from sinner to God's child witnesses effectively to Christ's power.

Scripture pronounces "blessed" all "who walk in the law of the Lord" (Ps. 119:1), whose "delight is in the law of the Lord" and who meditate "in His law. . . day and night" (Ps. 1:2). The blessings of obedience are many: (1) insight and wisdom (Ps. 119:98, 99); (2) peace (Ps. 119:165; Isa. 48:18); (3) righteousness (Deut. 6:25; Isa. 48:18); (4) a pure and moral life (Prov. 7:1-5); (5) knowledge of the truth (John 7:17); (6) protection against disease (Ex. 15:26); (7) longevity (Prov. 3:1, 2; 4:10, 22); and (8) the assurance that one's prayers will be answered (1 John 3:22; cf. Ps. 66:18).

Inviting us to obedience, God promises abundant blessings (Lev. 26:3-10; Deut. 28:1-12). When we respond positively, we become His "special treasure"—a "kingdom of priests and a holy nation" (Ex. 19:5, 6; cf. 1 Peter 2:5, 9), elevated "above all nations of the earth," "the head and not the tail" (Deut. 28:1, 13).

Again, no grounds whatsoever to say that these verses were only referring to ten of God's commands.

Salvation is not in keeping God's Law (10 commandments) it is by faith alone in God's Word to do what it says it will do. If you believe God's Word he will write his Law of Love in our hearts and it is Love which is the fulfilling of the Law in us who walk not after the Flesh but after the Spirit (Rom 8:4).
In Christ Always!

Jesus summarized all of the Law and the Prophets as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so love fulfills the law because it is obeying the law as it should be obeyed. And if we correctly understand the principle of love, then it will lead us to do things that are examples of that principle.
 
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stuart lawrence

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Those who simply reel off the partial letter that has no bearing on the reality of their own life should be ignored. The holy spirit us NOT guiding them into truth. Hence they cannot defend what they state when asked to do so, simply ignore your questions
 
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stuart lawrence

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Friends,

It is important to believe all of God's Word because that is where life to the believer comes from (Matthew 4:4). It will be the Word of God that will judge us in the last days (John 12:47-48). Salvation is from sin and not in sin. If your faith leads to a life of known unrepentant sin you have not been born again and do not know Jesus and do not have the faith of God’s Word (James 2:20).

The Gospel is not Jesus calling the righteous but sinners to repentance (Matthew 9:13). Whosoever commits sin is a servant of sin and if the son shall make you free you shall be free indeed because (John 8:34-36) and is the reason Jesus says, Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (John 3:7) because whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9). Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God (Luke 8:11).

It is only by faith in God's Word that we have salvation from sin and Jesus says; If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free from sin (John 8:31-36). For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8). Only sinners that need a Savior have salvation because the sinner knows he cannot save himself (Matthew 9:13; John 15:5). We are not saved by God's Law (Romans 3:20). God's Law gives us a knowledge of sin and brings us to Jesus so we can be saved (1 John 3:4; Romans 3:30; Romans 7:7; Galatians 3:24).

There is no Gospel without God's Law because there is no knowledge of sin. If there is no knowledge of sin there is no need of a Savior. If there is no need of a Savior there is no salvation. If there is no salvation you are lost and without hope and the scripture is fulfilled For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law (Romans 2:12). Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law (Romans 3:31).

Now it’s time for an intermission and the reason why we love him..


We love him because he first loved us (1 John 4:19). Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 13:9-10; Romans 8:4).. Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments... (John 14:15) If you are not you are not following God and do not have the love of God in you (1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-10) All I can say is that I love Jesus and wish you all only love, joy and peace in the Holy Ghost who God gives to those that obey him through faith (Acts 5:32).

James tells us that if we break one of God’s commandments we are guilty before God of breaking all of God’s Law and are in danger of the judgement. (James 2:8-12). This includes God’s 4th commandment, the 7th day Sabbath.

In Christ Always!
Do you claim not to commit any sin LGW?

Oh sorry I forgot, you will not answer that question will you
 
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stuart lawrence

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It's worth remembering, when discussing Gods laws with the SDA, that they insist you must avoid eating the Levitical unclean foods, you sin if you don't.
Paul tells us in rom ch14.
All food is clean.
And if the SDA are right concerning this issue, the leaders of the Christian church, many of whom had been Christ's disciples gave gentile converts a licence to sin by not asking them to avoid the Levitical unclean foods( Acts ch15)
As that is obviously a ridiculous notion, it is proof the SDA do not understand the law in relation to the NC. So their comments on the subject should obviously be ignored
 
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Another Lazarus

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The Sabbath & Holy days & food laws still foreshadow things to come. Notice it says "these ARE a shadow of THINGS TO COME", meaning, they haven't come yet. :)

Sabbath and Holy days were given to Moses and the Hebrew in the wilderness and the real "REST" of Sabbath has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
 
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stuart lawrence

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Some statements of Pauls regarding the TC

They are the letter that kills
The ministry of death and condemnation
The Christian must die to the law/ TC in order to bear fruit for God
Sinfull passions are aroused in you by the law/ TC if you live under them
The Christian is released from the law/ TC and serves in the new way of the Spirit and not the old way if the written code.

However, though Paul states the Christian is released from the law/ they die to the law, the op states the TC are the foundation of the NC and the basis of the christians judgement
 
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Doveaman

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What do you think?
I think you believe in the 9 commandments, but not the 10.
Do you, in your heart believe:
You should love God with all your heart?
Do you in your heart believe you should not have graven images?
Do you in your heart believe you should not take the Lord's name in vain?
Do you in your heart believe you should honour your parents?
In your heart do you believe you should not commit murder?
Do you in your heart believe you should not commit adultery?
Do you in your heart believe you should not steal?
Do you in your heart believe you should not bear false witness?
Do you in your heart believe you should not covet?
Yes, I do believe I should obey those 9 commandments.

But the law consists of 10 commandments, so if that same law is now written on our heart, it would include all 10 commandments, not just 9.
And finally
Do you in your heart believe you must observe a specific seventh day sabbath/ set it apart as a sabbath day?
No, I do not.

But the SDA believe in their heart they must observe a seventh day sabbath.

Does this mean the seventh day sabbath is written on the heart of a SDA, but not on my heart?

If the law written on our heart does not include the 4th commandment (sabbath), then that law cannot possibly be the 10 commandments.

So if you believe the law is now written on our heart, and that law is not the 10 commandments, then can you explain what law you are referring to?
 
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listed

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This is quite funny because you guys were having a big debate with Stuart and others about your understanding of God's Law for the last 3-4 pages in the COL 2:14-17 THE REAL TRUTH! thread and could not agree. I think from memory some of you were saying God's Law was abolished, others were saying it was not abolished and others were saying you only need to keep 9 commandments instead of 10? That was the reason for opening the discussion in this new thread so the we could stay on the OP for each thread. Now all of a sudden you guys all believe the same thing? Amazing! :oldthumbsup:

Maybe someone can tell me now is someone practicing known, unrepentant sin in a saved or unsaved sate? Are these people believers or Unbelievers in God's Word?
The true source of heart felt beliefs are the problem. Most Christians are spoon feed by and follow a religious leader. Some of these people are real Christians, just plain lazy. Others are pretending to be Christians because they got to church. This is easily seen in the singles ministry aspect of churches. A person will not be happy with what they find in bars and decide to look in church pretending to be someone they aren't by involvement.
 
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listed

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Hello,

Christ's death had nothing to do with ending any laws. In 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a reference to Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, also known as ceremonial laws. If the way to act in accordance with God's holiness changed with the death of Christ, then God's holiness also changed, but God's holiness is eternal and does not change. Crosses were never uses as a means of disposing of outdated laws, but rather what was written on crosses were the charges against the person being crucified (Matthew 27:37), which fits perfectly with our transgressions against God's Law being nailed to Christ's cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our our sins, but does not fit at all with Christ dying to set us free from need to obey what God has commanded. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Christ gave himself to redeem from the Law, but to redeem us from all Lawlessness. According to Deuteronomy 30:15-20, obedience to the law brings life and a blessing, while disobedience to the law brings death and a curse, so by being set free from the curse of the law we have been set free from living in disobedience to it so that we might be free to live for God in obedience to His Law. The Law minus its condemnation remains a set of holy, righteous, and good instructions for how to walk in God's ways.



It is inconsistent to say that believers are called to holy living while saying that God's instructions for how to do that were ended at the cross. God never required anyone to obey His Law in order to become saved, but rather the one and only way to become saved has only ever been by grace through faith, and by the same grace through the same faith we are required to be careful to obey all of God's commands. According to Romans 4:1-8, Abraham and David were justified by faith, so this is how everyone in the OT was able to become justified, and God had no need to provide an alternative and unobtainable means of becoming justified when a perfectly good means of justification by faith was already in place.

In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Mosaic Law and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive and that he served with his flesh. This is a summary of what he said previously, so it is the law of sin that came about to increases tresspasses (5:20), that stirs up sinful passions to bear fruit unto death (7:5), that held us captive (7:6), that gives sin its power (7:8), that deceived Paul through the commandment and killed him (7:11), and that caused him not to do the good that he wanted to do, while God's Law is not sin, but reveals what sin is (7:7), is holy, righteous, and good (7:12), is the good that Paul did not blame for bringing death to him (7:13), and is the good that Paul desired to do (7:13-20). In short, the law of sin is the law where sin had dominion over Paul.

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Paul specifies that the law we are not under is one where sin had dominion over him, which does not at all fit his description of God's holy, righteous, and good Law, but perfectly fits his description of the law of sin, so we are not under the law of sin when we are under grace. In Psalms 119:29, David asked God to show His grace to him by teaching him to obey His Law, so if we are under grace, then we are under the Mosaic Law. This is confirmed in Titus 2:11-14, where it describes our salvation as grace training us to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to refrain from doing what is ungodly and sinful, which is an accurate description of what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do.



Romans 10:4 Christ is the goal of the Law, which leads to righteousness for all who have faith in God.

It makes no sense to translate "telos" as ending the law for righteousness when the Law was never given for righteousness in the first place. In Romans 9:30 - Romans 10:10, Israel did not fail to obtain righteousness because they did what God told them to and God gave them faulty instructions, but because they misunderstood the purpose of the law and thought that obeying it was about establishing their own righteousness. They had a zeal for God, but it wasn't based on knowledge because they didn't submit to God's righteousness. Rather, the purpose of obeying the Law is to grow in a relationship with Christ for righteousness for everyone who has faith. Our faith says that God's Law is not too difficult, but that it is near us, it is in our mouth, and in our heart, and this is what it means to submit to Christ as Lord. In Philippians 3:8, Paul counted it as rubbish to obey the Law without focusing on growing in a relationship with Christ because that was missing the entire point.



God's Law was given to reveal what sin is, which is much more than just 10 commands and God's grace does not permit us to sin by breaking those other commands, but rather we can have victory over sin by living in obedience to those commands. According to Psalms 119:160, all of God's righteous laws are eternal, not just ten of them.



According to Matthew 11:28-30 and Jeremiah 6:16-19, the Mosaic Law is the good way where we will find rest for our souls, but if obeying the Law were about earning our salvation, then it would rob our souls of the rest that it was intended to give because we would never know if what we had done was good enough. So trying to become saved by obeying Law has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the Law and of God's character because it makes it out to be that what God primarily wanted for us was our obedience when since the beginning with God walking with Adam in the Garden what God has primarily wanted from us is an intimate relationship with Him, and the Law is His instructions for how to do that. It was never about what we need to do in order to become saved, but about what we are therefore required to do by grace through faith because we have been saved. We have been saved by grace through faith, not be doing good works, but for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). They way to live Christ-like lives is to do what is holy, righteous, and good like he did by walking in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and we are told that those who are in Christ ought to walk in the same way he did (1 John 2:3-6) and to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22).



None of these verses specify that they are talking about just the the Ten Commandments. There is no grounds to say that only ten of God's commands in His will while all of His other commands are not in accordance with His will. Morality is based off of God's character and all of God's laws are there to instruct us how to act in God's image and to reflect His character to the world, so all of God's laws are moral laws and it is always immoral to disobey any of God's commands. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so again all of God's laws are inherently moral laws, not just ten of them. David said that he delighted in God's Law a number of times throughout the Psalms, which Paul also did (Romans 7:22), and again there is nothing that specifies that they delighted in only obeying ten of God's commands.



Pleroo: to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be

In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it, he said not the least part would disappear from the Law until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplished (both of which have not happened yet), and he warned that those who relax the least of the commands and teach others to do the same would be called least in the Kingdom, while those who obeyed them and taught others to do the same would be called great in the Kingdom. He then proceed to fulfill the law six times throughout the rest of the chapter by causing God's will as made known in the Law to be obeyed as it should be, and this included more than just the Ten Commandments. By only teaching obedience to ten commands, you are relaxing far more than he least of the laws. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus said that all of the Law and the Prophets hang on the greatest two commands, so there is again no room whatsoever to say that he was only speaking about ten commands. They are all God's instructions for how to love Him and our neighbor, and there is nothing brand new about the command to love our neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), but what is new is the quality of the example by which we are to love our neighbor.



Jesus said that he teaching was not his own, but that of the Father, so his commandments were the same as the Father (John 14:23-24). And if he had commanded nothing, then he still would have taught obedience to more than just the Ten Commandments by example.



I hate to sound like a broken record, but Hebrews 8:10 does not specify just the Ten Commandments.



Again, no grounds whatsoever to say that these verses were only referring to ten of God's commands.



Jesus summarized all of the Law and the Prophets as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so love fulfills the law because it is obeying the law as it should be obeyed. And if we correctly understand the principle of love, then it will lead us to do things that are examples of that principle.
Take it for what it is folks.
 
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stuart lawrence

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I think you believe in the 9 commandments, but not the 10.
Yes, I do believe I should obey those 9 commandments.

But the law consists of 10 commandments, so if that same law is now written on our heart, it would include all 10 commandments, not just 9.
No, I do not.

But the SDA believe in their heart they must observe a seventh day sabbath.

Does this mean the seventh day sabbath is written on the heart of a SDA, but not on my heart?

If the law written on our heart does not include the 4th commandment (sabbath), then that law cannot possibly be the 10 commandments.

So if you believe the law is now written on our heart, and that law is not the 10 commandments, then can you explain what law you are referring to?
There's much more placed in our hearts than that which was written on stone isn't there? So we agree, that nine of the commandments written on stone are commandments we believe we should follow
As to whether the fourth commandment is within you in respect of observing a set Saturday sabbath.
In rom. Ch14 Paul speaks of what he terms disputable matters In verse one. He gives two examples.
He states
As one who is in the Lord Jesus I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone. regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean
Rom14:14
That would be a disputable matter, would you agree. In other words you are free to take either view. So I wouldn't believe that law was written on your mind and placed on your heart.
The other disputable matter mentioned:
One man considers one day more sacred/ holy than another, another man considers every day alike each one should be fully convinced in his own mind
Verse5

Don't get too hung up on the literal wording of the fourth commandment in my view. Under the NC the believer is born again of the Holy spirit who dwells in them. And through the spirit dwelling in the believer, they dwell in Father and Son and Father and Son in them( john17:21)
If Father and Son are in you and you in them, you will naturally/ instinctively meditate on them all seven days. you will be grateful all seven days for what God has done for you through his sons sacrifice. You will spiritually rest in Christ all Severn days. The spiritual intent of the fourth commandment is upheld Severn days a week.
Under the OC God told Moses the Israelites were a stiff necked, heathen people who would soon desert him once they reached the promised land. such people needed to be encouraged to set time specfically aside for God. In my view, for the reasons given that is not now necessary. Paul wrote:
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with Ink but the Spirit of the living God, NOT on tablets of stone/TC but on tablets of human hearts
2cor3:3
No, I do not believe it is written in your mind and placed in your heart to observe a set Saturday sabbath. You are most welcome to observe one if you wish, but you may also consider every day alike, for the reasons given. And, that is what Paul states you can do
Personally I never consider the Ten Commandments as it were are written in my mind and placed on my heart. Just anything I could do that would make me conscious I commit sin if I did it. For:
Through the law we become conscious of sin
Rom3:20

Actually, when I first came to internet debating websites I had to read up in the TC, I couldn't remember them all, but for the purpose of debate thought I'd better brush up in them. My overriding thought was, nine if them as written I instinctively knew in my mind, and in my heart wanted to follow
BTW
As a courtesy to you I responded to your post. But after discussing this subject at length with three people over many days I am taking a break from it. Thought I should mention that, in case you spent much time writing a long post back that was barely responded ro
 
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Original Happy Camper

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2 Thessalonians 2:10-12King James Version (KJV)
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Delusion - Wikipedia
Delusion - Wikipedia
A delusion is a belief that is held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.

Matthew 7:13-15King James Version (KJV)
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Isaiah 66:22-24King James Version (KJV)
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Revelation 22:18-20King James Version (KJV)
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

You Can not take the 4th commandment out of the ten without having your name removed from the book of life. My understanding from reading the word of GOD
 
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Dkh587

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Sabbath and Holy days were given to Moses and the Hebrew in the wilderness and the real "REST" of Sabbath has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
Doesn't the scripture say "these are a shadow of things to come" ? If they *are* a shadow of things *to come*, then obviously certain things haven't happened & been revealed regarding God's Holy Days.

Fulfilled doesn't mean they're done away with. It means that Messiah brings the full revelation of what the Holy Days are all about.

It's so awesome to celebrate God's Holy Days in relation to the Messiah. No need for pagan holidays like Christmas & Easter.

There are still things to come, prophetically speaking. God's Holy Days still point to some things that HAVE NOT HAPPENED YET. Not everything that the Holy Days of God point to have happened yet. Some, but not all

Christmas and Easter don't point to anything but pagan gods and goddesses
 
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stuart lawrence

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2 Thessalonians 2:10-12King James Version (KJV)
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Delusion - Wikipedia
Delusion - Wikipedia
A delusion is a belief that is held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.

Matthew 7:13-15King James Version (KJV)
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Isaiah 66:22-24King James Version (KJV)
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Revelation 22:18-20King James Version (KJV)
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

You Can not take the 4th commandment out of the ten without having your name removed from the book of life. My understanding from reading the word of GOD
Then in your view, no one can be in a saved state/ a Christian unless they observe a set seventh day sabbath.
That's fine if that's what you want to believe. But did you join this website to debate the unsaved? I didnt
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Stu

I know we disagree on the Seventh Day Sabbath but it is the seal of GOD as opposed to the mark of the beast which is Sunday worship that has its origin in paganism.

If you have another view of the seal of God please share it with me.

Notice the worship issue in these texts below.

Revelation 5:14
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 7:11
And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 13:4
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:12
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beastbefore him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:15
And he had power to give life unto the image of thebeast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship theimage of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 14:9
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 16:2
And the first went, and poured out his vial upon theearth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Revelation 19:4
And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of thebeast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 
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stuart lawrence

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Stu

I know we disagree on the Seventh Day Sabbath but it is the seal of GOD as opposed to the mark of the beast which is Sunday worship that has its origin in paganism.

If you have another view of the seal of God please share it with me.

Notice the worship issue in these texts below.

Revelation 5:14
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 7:11
And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 13:4
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:12
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beastbefore him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:15
And he had power to give life unto the image of thebeast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship theimage of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 14:9
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 16:2
And the first went, and poured out his vial upon theearth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Revelation 19:4
And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of thebeast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
I'm not attacking you, just passing a comment. If you believe your name cannot be in the lambs book of life unless you observe a set Saturday sabbath, you are having to debate those you consider unsaved. Personally, i joined a Christian internet debating website to chat to the saved, not the unsaved about the bible
 
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stuart lawrence

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Stu

I know we disagree on the Seventh Day Sabbath but it is the seal of GOD as opposed to the mark of the beast which is Sunday worship that has its origin in paganism.

If you have another view of the seal of God please share it with me.

Notice the worship issue in these texts below.

Revelation 5:14
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 7:11
And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 13:4
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:12
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beastbefore him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:15
And he had power to give life unto the image of thebeast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship theimage of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 14:9
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 16:2
And the first went, and poured out his vial upon theearth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Revelation 19:4
And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of thebeast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rather than have a scripture quoting contest, let's relate this to the core foundation upon which the NC stands.
Under the NC God writes the law in your mind and places it on your heart he wants you to follow. He does it. Therefore you would not need to read a bible to know what that law is.
I myself can testify, when I got saved I instinctively became aware of my sin, I didn't have to firstly relate it to specific verses in the Bible. So I instinctively knew of Gods laws.
So can I ask you. How did you become aware you must observe aset Saturday sabbath? Did you instinctively know that in your mind when you became a Christian, or, did you only come to that conclusion from reading the OT?
 
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