GOD'S LAW (10 commandments) ARE FOREVER!

[listed]

It seems you are mixed up between God’s Law and the ceremonial laws of Moses that were fulfilled at the cross. (Col 2:14-17; Hebrews chapters 8; 9; 10; John 1:29; 1Cor 5:6-7; Rom 2:28-29). I do not judge you however this is between you and God and we will have to agree to disagree if you believe in the ceremonial laws of Moses that where shadows pointing to Jesus. You have provided a lot of repetition in your posts I think I have addressed everything. So let’s leave it at that otherwise we are just repeating ourselves and going around in circles which is to no one’s benefit. I have not come across anyone that has a belief system such as yours. What Church do you go to?

Are the ten commandments written ordinances?

 

[Dkh587]

Let me ask some simple questions which may help the discussion. Who made the 10 commandments God or Man (Ex 31:18; 32:16)? How many commandments did God make himself without man that were written on two tables of stone by God himself (Ex 20:1-17)? How many commandments did God speak with his own voice to His people (Ex 20:1-17)? Why did God request that His Law (10 commandments) be kept separate from the ceremonial laws of Moses that were written in a book (Deut 10:5; Deut 31:25)? Who were the laws of Moses written by God or Man (Deut 31:24-27). If God’s Law (10 commandments) and the laws of Moses were all the same why did God give instructions to keep them separate (Deut 10:5: Deut 31:24-27)?

It is very clear from God’s Word that God’s Law and the ceremonial laws of Moses are different and not the same and God separated them for a reason. God’s Law is forever (Ecc 3:14). The ceremonial laws of Moses however were a shadow of things to come pointing to Jesus and had there fulfilment in the cross (see; Col 2:14-17; Hebrews chapters 8; 9; 10; John 1:29; 1Cor 5:6-7; Rom 2:28-29).

You then go on to say that the ceremonial laws of Moses were not a prescription for sin in the Old Covenant but ignore the scriptures that say what was required for forgiveness under the Old Covenant before Jesus (see; Lev 1:1-13; Lev 23:1-44; Num 28:1-31; 29:1-40; Deut 24:10-11; Ex 24:3; Deut 31:24-26; Col 2:16-16; Heb 10:1; Eph 2:14-15; Lev 4; 5; 6; Heb 4:14; 9;10; John 1:29; Hebrew Chapters 8; 9; 10; 2Cor 5:6-7; Rom 2:28-29)

You then claim that Holiness come from the ceremonial laws of Moses but I see not scripture for this claim. You then quote Hebrews 10:4 and Romans 10:4….

Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

This verse is not saying what you are claiming. The ceremonial laws of Moses with animal sacrifices were prescription for sin as highlighted above in order to obtain forgiveness for sin in the Old Covenant and could make nothing perfect. This is highlighted in the context of the verse which supports everything I have been sharing with you in the earlier verses…

Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Now what law are we talking about God’s Law (10 commandments) or the ceremonial laws of Moses? (v2) sacrifices of blood and bulls, (v6) burnt offerings, (v7) in the volume of a book. It is very clear that Hebrews 10 is talking about the ceremonial laws of Moses that were a Shadow of things to come (Heb 10:1) not God’s 10 commandments.

Then you refer to Romans 10:4, For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth. This is now talking about God Law (Rom 3:25; Rom 6:16-19; Rom 8:4). It seems you are mixed up between God’s Law which is forever (Ecc 3:14) and the ceremonial laws of Moses which are part of the Old Covenant and a Shadow of things to come (Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 10:1) which were pointing to Jesus and was fulfilled at the cross according to the scriptures (see; Col 2:14-17; Hebrews chapters 8; 9; 10; John 1:29; 1Cor 5:6-7; Rom 2:28-29).

Absolutely! Our sins were indeed nailed to the cross along with the ceremonial laws of Moses that the Word of God says were shadows that pointed to Jesus as our true lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world ( Col 2:14-17; Hebrews chapters 8; 9; 10; John 1:29; 1Cor 5:6-7; Rom 2:28-29)

The law of Moses, also called the law of God (Nehemiah 8:18) was not nailed to the cross. Our death penalty is what was nailed to the cross. Christ being the fulfillment or revelation of God's holy days does not mean that they are gone and no longer observed. We can fully observe them now in light of the full revelation, through Messiah, of God's holy days in Leviticus 23

The Messiah taught from the law, to obey Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18 (you can't do these while also ignoring the rest of God's commands). These 2 commands are the foundation of the Torah & Prophets; all the commands hang on them Matthew 22:34-40

If the law of God, aka the law of Moses was "nailed to the cross" then why would he even be teaching stuff from the law of God(Genesis-Deuteronomy)?

If the law that he was teaching from is gone, then those commands are no longer valid, as they come from the law of Moses/law of God

 

[listed]

There's dissention in the camp anyway. Some say the law exists to make you conscious of sin, while others say it doesn't. Some say the law exists one minute, then the next say it doesn't.

The trouble with Incorrect doctrine is, you end up contradicting yourself all over the place

The law is for the wicked, not the Christian. the christian is righteous just like Abraham and kind David, yet they sinned. So what righteousness did they have? It can't be righteousness of the law. This law came through the hands of a murder.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The law of Moses, also called the law of God (Nehemiah 8:18) was not nailed to the cross. Our death penalty is what was nailed to the cross. Christ being the fulfillment or revelation of God's holy days does not mean that they are gone and no longer observed. We can fully observe them now in light of the full revelation of God's holy days in Leviticus 23

The Messiah taught from the law, to obey Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18

If the law of God, aka the law of Moses was "nailed to the cross" then why would he even be teaching stuff from the law of God(Genesis-Deuteronomy)?

If the law that he was teaching from is gone, then those commands are no longer valid, as they come from the law of Moses/law of God

We obviously disagree as to which law Christians are asked to follow, but on a positive note, we both understand the penalty of sin/ death penalty was nailed to the cross, not the entire law itself. For that I am grateful

 

[listed]

The law of Moses, also called the law of God (Nehemiah 8:18) was not nailed to the cross. Our death penalty is what was nailed to the cross. Christ being the fulfillment or revelation of God's holy days does not mean that they are gone and no longer observed. We can fully observe them now in light of the full revelation of God's holy days in Leviticus 23

The Messiah taught from the law, to obey Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18 (you can't do these while also ignoring the rest of God's commands. These 2 commands are the foundation of the Torah & Prophets; all the commands hang on them Matthew 22:34-40

If the law of God, aka the law of Moses was "nailed to the cross" then why would he even be teaching stuff from the law of God(Genesis-Deuteronomy)?

If the law that he was teaching from is gone, then those commands are no longer valid, as they come from the law of Moses/law of God

Scripture is being rejected.

 

[listed]

We obviously disagree as to which law Christians are asked to follow, but on a positive note, we both understand the penalty of sin/ death penalty was nailed to the cross, not the entire law itself. For that I am grateful

You're preaching an unbiblical partial compliance to the law.

 

[Dkh587]

We obviously disagree as to which law Christians are asked to follow, but on a positive note, we both understand the penalty of sin/ death penalty was nailed to the cross, not the entire law itself. For that I am grateful

I agree. The certificate of death is what was nailed to the cross. That is what Colossians 2:14 is talking about: our death sentence

 

[stuart lawrence]

Lol. Bob S has already stated the law exist's to make us conscious of sin.
Righteousness of observing the law can only exist if the penalty for transgression exists. The Christian has a saviour from their sin/ transgression of the law. Christ paid the believers penalty
Without the penalty of sin in place, the ministry of death and condemnation is abolished. For the penalty of sin is death. No penalty, no ministration of death and condemnation. No righteousness of observing the law.
Simple, even a child could understand it

 

[stuart lawrence]

Lol
As for an unbiblical partial compliance.
In Acts ch 15, the leaders of the Church must have preached the same thing then!!!!!

Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid! Yea, we establish the law
Rom3:31

How can you establish what has been abolished?

 

[listed]

Lol
As for an unbiblical partial compliance.
In Acts ch 15, the leaders of the Church must have preached the same thing then!!!!!

Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid! Yea, we establish the law
Rom3:31

How can you establish what has been abolished?

The Apostles didn't teach a partial compliance with the law.

It's very easy for me to believe the law was abolished because Jeremiah, who spoke for God said the covenant given at Sinai would be replaced and Jesus confirmed this fact.

 

[stuart lawrence]

In Acts ch 15 the leaders of the Christian church asked gentile converts to observe four Jewish laws. If that isn't partial compliance, what is?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well if the law got abolished you CANNOT be conscious of sin

Through the law we become conscious of sin rom3:20

Paul used present, not past tense.

If you stole, committed adultery, bore false witness, coveted you must be conscious you commit sin.

This is ridiculous

 

[Dkh587]

It's very easy for me to believe the law was abolished

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to abolish the law

 

[stuart lawrence]

The law of sin and death got abolished. The ministration of death and condemnation got abolished. It requires the penalty for sin to be in place. Christ died to pay the believers penalty. He did not die to remove what was written in the moral law.
Proven by the fact, if you transgress, nine of the TC as written you will be conscious you sin by doing so

 

[Dkh587]

The law of sin and death got abolished. The ministration of death and condemnation got abolished. It requires the penalty for sin to be in place. Christ died to pay the believers penalty. He did not die to remove the moral law.
Proven by the fact, if you transgress, nine of the TC as written you will be conscious you sin by doing so

There are 10 commandments - if you break one, you break them all. Saying there is only 9, is breaking all of them because you are attempting to remove a command yourself.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Why do you and your church say this seal is the sabbath?

From ancient times, a king’s seal always contained three main elements: his name, his title, and his territory. It’s no accident that within the law of God, you will find His seal. “The Lord made heaven, and earth, and the sea” (Exodus 20:11). There you have it!

His name, Yahweh; His title, Creator; His territory, the heavens and earth. The seal of God is found in the Sabbath commandment!

 

[stuart lawrence]

There are 10 commandments - if you break one, you break them all. Saying there is only 9, is breaking all of them because you are attempting to remove a command yourself.

I dont want to get into this right now, I am debating something else.
However, I have on three separate occasions written lengthy posts explaining the spiritual intent of the fourth commandment is observed Severn days a week for born again christians, which would include Friday to Saturday sundown, and I have explained why. I think it was on page five or six of this debate in a post to Doverman if you are interested

 

[stuart lawrence]

There are 10 commandments - if you break one, you break them all. Saying there is only 9, is breaking all of them because you are attempting to remove a command yourself.

Sorry, post 74 on page 4

 

[Soyeong]

God has told us that we are in the New Covenant now and no longer under the ceremonial laws of Moses which you are promoting. The ceremonial laws of Moses pointing to Jesus, his life and role in the Heavenly Sanctuary have been fulfilled in Jesus. (Col 2:14-17; Hebrews chapters 8; 9; 10; John 1:29; 1Cor 5:6-7; Rom 2:28-29)

I completely agree that we are under the New Covenant, but we are nevertheless still under the same God, whose holiness is eternal, which means that the way to act in accordance with His holiness is also eternal. The ceremonial laws are essentially God's instructions for how to act in accordance with His holiness, so the only way for them to be done away with is for God's holiness to be first done away with. In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the instructions that God gave to Israel for how to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him is if they teach against obeying what God had commande them, even if they perform signs and wonders, so if Jesus did away with ceremonial laws, then Jews who are following God's instruction are correct in rejecting him as their Messiah, and Christians who teach what Jesus did that are one of the biggest reasons why Jews have rejected Jesus as their Messiah.

A relationship with Jesus is the goal of obeying the Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith (Romans 10:4), so all of it points towards Jesus, and that is why the Law was correctly obeyed in the OT, and why we should continue to obey them in the NT. To fulfill the law means to cause God's will as made known in the Law to be obeyed as it should be, and so Christ fulfilled the Law six times in Matthew 5 by teaching how to correctly obey it. In Galatians 5:14, it says that loving your neighbor fulfills the entire Law, so everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire Law, which means that it does not refer to something unique that Jesus did, but to obeying it as it should be, as is reflected in other Jewish literature. In Galatians 6:2, it says that bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, which again does not refer to doing away with it, but to obeying it as it should be. In Romans 15:18-19, it says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, which doesn't mean he did away with it, but rather it means that he caused the Gentiles to be obedient to it in word and in deed as it should be.

Absolutely! Our sins were indeed nailed to the cross along with the ceremonial laws of Moses that the Word of God says were shadows that pointed to Jesus as our true lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world ( Col 2:14-17; Hebrews chapters 8; 9; 10; John 1:29; 1Cor 5:6-7; Rom 2:28-29)

You keep bringing up Colossians 2:14-17 as though it supports your position, but you're not really interacting with what I've said about it. The Colossians were keeping God's holy days in obedience to God's commands and they were being judged by those promoting human precepts and teachings, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body (Colossians 2:20-23), so Paul was writing the Colossians to encourage them not to let any man judge them for obeying what God has commanded. It is not clear to me how you can say that you absolutely agree with that crosses were not used as a means of disposing of the laws and that what was written on crosses were not the laws themselves, but the violations of the law, and then turn around and say that the cross was used as a means of disposing of ceremonial laws themselves. The Bible says nothing about the cross doing away with God's holiness or the way to act in accordance with it. There is no law whatsoever that was done away with on the cross because Christ did not give himself to free us from the Law, but to pay our penalty for transgressing to the Law and to free us from living in transgression of it (Titus 2:14). In John 1:29, it does not say that he came to take away the Law, but to take away our transgressions of it. In 1 Corinthians 5:6-7, it does not say that we are free to keep the old yeast, but that we must get rid of it. In Romans 2:26-29, it says that the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law and that Gentiles who obey the Law will condemn Jews who break the Law.

Nope because the ceremonial laws of Moses are the Old Covenant that was nailed to the Cross we now have a better sacrifice and High Priest that ministers on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands of which the Sanctuary on earth was only a copy. (Col 2:14-17; Hebrews chapters 8; 9; 10; John 1:29; 1Cor 5:6-7; Rom 2:28-29)

While Hebrews 8:6-7 says that we are under a New Covenant with a superior mediator, offering, and promises, it does not say that it is built of superior laws because that would involve following a superior God with superior holiness, righteousness, and goodness.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I completely agree that we are under the New Covenant, but we are nevertheless still under the same God, whose holiness is eternal, which means that the way to act in accordance with His holiness is also eternal. The ceremonial laws are essentially God's instructions for how to act in accordance with His holiness, so the only way for them to be done away with is for God's holiness to be first done away with. In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the instructions that God gave to Israel for how to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him is if they teach against obeying what God had commande them, even if they perform signs and wonders, so if Jesus did away with ceremonial laws, then Jews who are following God's instruction are correct in rejecting him as their Messiah, and Christians who teach what Jesus did that are one of the biggest reasons why Jews have rejected Jesus as their Messiah.

What is the meaning of holiness or holy? There are a few meanings in Hebrew and Greek depending on the scripture and context. In relation to God's Law (10 commandments) it means; HO'LINESS, n. from H2623; חסיד; châsı̂yd; khaw-seed' Greek; G2150; εὐσέβεια; eusebeia; yoo-seb'-i-ah [from holy.] The state of being holy; purity or integrity of moral character; freedom from sin; sanctity or set apart. Applied to the Supreme Being, holiness denotes perfect purity or integrity of moral character, one of his essential attributes. Godliness (like God in character). Therefore to be holy or practice holiness is in reference to God's Law (10 commandments) not in relation to the ceremonial laws of Moses that were shadows pointing to Jesus (Hebrews 8:1-5; 6-13; Hebrews 10:1-19; Colossians 2:14;17)

Then you go on to quote Deuteronomy 13:4-5 on how to determine a false prophet in relation to the ceremonial law. If you read the context the scripture you quoted is not in reference to the ceremonial laws of Moses but in relation to God's Law (10 commandments). As mentioned earlier I think you have your laws mixed up. Here are the context verses of

Deuteronomy 13:1-4
1, If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives thee a sign or a wonder, 2, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3, Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proves you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Clearly this is in reference to the 10 commandments and not the ceremonial laws of Moses (see Exodus 20: 3) and therefore does not support your argument for continuing the ceremonial laws of Moses which were a shadow of things to come (Hebrews 8:1-5; 6-13; Hebrews 10:1-19; Colosians 2:14;17; Hebrews chapters 9; 10; John 1:29; 1Cor 5:6-7; Rom 2:28-29).

If all these were pointing to Jesus you should follow what Jesus says and make him your focus. Not ceremonial laws that pointed to him. We are in the New Covenant now not the Old.

Hebrews 8:13,
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.