God's great mercy ... questions ...

[MikeBigg]

This thread is in response to this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7749713/

which starts with stories of God saving people shortly before they die. I didn't want to sidetrack an encouraging thread, so started this one.

My problem with the that thread is that while those stories do show God's mercy, there are many more people who die having not experienced the same mercy that these people did.

So - great mercy? Or great mercy for the few? Which doesn't seem that great to me.

Regards,

Mike

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

Here are my thoughts...

1. Reread Romans 9

2. Does anyone deserve to be saved?

3. Look to Jesus- I think we all under appreciate what it cost God to set us right with Him.

4. Consider the consequences - if man has all turned away from God and doesn't seek God, yet God mercifully steps in and dies for the sins of all who trust in Him, it stands to reason those who reject Christ, reject His mercy for which there is no other substitution for sin, which means God executes rightful judgment which is just on those who have rejected His Son.

God is perfectly loving and gracious yet He is also perfectly Holy and just and we can't pit Him against Himself. His justice requires a judgment. His mercy requires a sacrifice. Those who are lost are those who say they don't need a Savior, that they don't need mercy. They fail to be reconciled, they fail to see their own sinfulness and consequentially fail to see the marvelous love of God given to us in Christ Jesus.

If this is a question about election, I refer back to Romans 9. What right does the clay have to judge the potter?

At the end of the day, God is God. He is ever loving and merciful, but He is also sovereign and the King of kings. As a subject of the King I trust that I don't know all the reasons He does what He does, but I trust Him. I trust that whatever He does, it is for a reason and because I have seen His love expressed to the world in Christ, I trust that what ever the reason, it is not because He doesn't love us.

 

[MikeBigg]

Here are my thoughts ...

I hear what you say and used to be satisfied with that answer. I am no longer satisfied with it.

According to the arguments put forward in your post

If God came to be the saviour of all people - He is a miserable failure. His plan failed.
If God will have all men to be saved - man's will is stronger than God's. Which I find to be an interesting concept).

Where is the hope in the Gospel following sudden death?

What do you tell the family of the 2 teenagers killed in a car crash that night?
What do you tell the family of the teenage boy who hung himself?
What do you tell the mother of the little girl who died aged 2 hours?

These are not random situations, but situations that have happened in my little town recently. I'm sure you can think of scenarios of your own.

Where is the hope in the Gospel in those situations?

Here's an answer (based on the theology that gets passed around these parts):

"I'm sorry, but your son will spend eternity in torment. God loves you."

Something is missing in this.

Jesus came for all. We know this because he said so: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Paul continues the theme in Romans: "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people."

So, what Christ came to do He has not done.

Something in our theology doesn't add up. "All" has becomes less than 5% (based on church attendance in the UK).

Where is the great mercy?

 

[jiminpa]

Mike, man's will is not stronger than God's will. God could make us all believe with a single word, except that it would violate what He has already said. He gives us the choice and He chooses to honour that choice, every time. He could absolutely compel us to choose wisely, but He doesn't. Maybe it will never make sense to you. We are not as smart as God, and He is not obligated to make sense at our very limited level.

 

[like eagleswings]

This thread is in response to this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7749713/

which starts with stories of God saving people shortly before they die. I didn't want to sidetrack an encouraging thread, so started this one.

My problem with the that thread is that while those stories do show God's mercy, there are many more people who die having not experienced the same mercy that these people did.

So - great mercy? Or great mercy for the few? Which doesn't seem that great to me.

Regards,

Mike

maybe they don't receive his mercy because they harden there hearts to it. God resists the proud,but gives grace to the humble.

I think that he was a backslider, and God brought to him a repentant heart,
to run back to his fathers loving arms, a prodigal son. because God saw that his time was short. that's mercy. undeserved parden,grace underserved love and favour.

 

[jiminpa]

As to what to say when death doesn't make sense? The only thing that will help is some variation of "I'm sorry." Everything else just adds pain.

 

[MikeBigg]

Mike, man's will is not stronger than God's will. God could make us all believe with a single word, except that it would violate what He has already said. He gives us the choice and He chooses to honour that choice, every time. He could absolutely compel us to choose wisely, but He doesn't. Maybe it will never make sense to you. We are not as smart as God, and He is not obligated to make sense at our very limited level.

Yeah, I understand what your saying. I guess Paul still had a choice.

Does it make sense to you? Not just the free will stuff, because I can see you have that, as do I, but that and the limited effectiveness of the mission?

Regards,

Mike

 

[MikeBigg]

As to what to say when death doesn't make sense? The only thing that will help is some variation of "I'm sorry." Everything else just adds pain.

Yes, but then I have been asked the question about heaven or hell for a departed loved one before now.

The oft-stated concept of burning in hell for eternity is not one that I am comfortable with saying to someone. So I fudge.

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

Here are my thoughts ...

I hear what you say and used to be satisfied with that answer. I am no longer satisfied with it.

According to the arguments put forward in your post

If God came to be the saviour of all people - He is a miserable failure. His plan failed.
If God will have all men to be saved - man's will is stronger than God's. Which I find to be an interesting concept).

Where is the hope in the Gospel following sudden death?

What do you tell the family of the 2 teenagers killed in a car crash that night?
What do you tell the family of the teenage boy who hung himself?
What do you tell the mother of the little girl who died aged 2 hours?

These are not random situations, but situations that have happened in my little town recently. I'm sure you can think of scenarios of your own.

Where is the hope in the Gospel in those situations?

Here's an answer (based on the theology that gets passed around these parts):

"I'm sorry, but your son will spend eternity in torment. God loves you."

Something is missing in this.

Jesus came for all. We know this because he said so: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Paul continues the theme in Romans: "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people."

So, what Christ came to do He has not done.

Something in our theology doesn't add up. "All" has becomes less than 5% (based on church attendance in the UK).

Where is the great mercy?

I certainly don't tell anyone they are going to hell. I'm not God.

Honestly Mike no one has the answers to this And no one can judge those who died...no one can see the secret things that God could have been doing in their heart regardless of what their performance might or might not suggest. All I can tell you is I look at the cross and I know what the answer isn't, it isn't that God doesn't care.

 

[Messy]

Here are my thoughts ...

I hear what you say and used to be satisfied with that answer. I am no longer satisfied with it.

According to the arguments put forward in your post

If God came to be the saviour of all people - He is a miserable failure. His plan failed.
If God will have all men to be saved - man's will is stronger than God's. Which I find to be an interesting concept).

Where is the hope in the Gospel following sudden death?

What do you tell the family of the 2 teenagers killed in a car crash that night?
What do you tell the family of the teenage boy who hung himself?
What do you tell the mother of the little girl who died aged 2 hours?

These are not random situations, but situations that have happened in my little town recently. I'm sure you can think of scenarios of your own.

Where is the hope in the Gospel in those situations?

Here's an answer (based on the theology that gets passed around these parts):

"I'm sorry, but your son will spend eternity in torment. God loves you."

Something is missing in this.

Jesus came for all. We know this because he said so: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Paul continues the theme in Romans: "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people."

So, what Christ came to do He has not done.

Something in our theology doesn't add up. "All" has becomes less than 5% (based on church attendance in the UK).

Where is the great mercy?

If it were good, the great mercy would not only be in Him, but also in us. If we willingly choose to not pray for people who are at the edge of eternity that God opens their eyes, if we don't preach the gospel as a church, we can't blame God if someone dies without knowing Him.
When I lead the prayer for church, very few people attended and we always prayed for the people who were about to die. I saw Ian McCormack on youtube who was an atheist, but because his mother prayed for him, God could speak to him and he gave his life to Him in his last breath, went to heaven and came back to tell his mother. That inspired me. Must do it more by the way.
1 Timothy 2
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
God can do nothing on earth unless His people pray and give Him a legal invitation to do something here.

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

And I apologize if my original post came across as being cold. I didn't realize we were dealing with these personal events that have happened in your town.

 

[Messy]

By the way you never know if someone was saved in his last breath. God could have used an intercessor from South Korea to intercede.
A collegue from me with whom we always had lunch all of a sudden died, turned out he committed suicide. The night before I had to pray for people from the office, had no idea for who, just prayed in tongues. But when I heard it (he mocked my belief) I was really afraid he went to hell.
Later I got a dream of him coming to the office. He had new clothes and was very happy, said He met the Lord two years ago. I held his hand and was crying and said: Why didn't anyone tell me you're still alive? I woke up and I forgot all about it, so I had to look up when he died and it was exactly 2 years earlier.

 

[vitaminC]

I think that it is a mistake to think that God has only one attribute to who he is and only one way in which he interacts with people. Mercy is one message which God gives to us , but not the only message. Thinking that everything that happens in life has the purpose of proving or showing God's mercy is would shorten the Bible quite a bit if it were true.

 

[murjahel]

I think that it is a mistake to think that God has only one attribute to who he is .

It is not like God will just change His name to be different, like some do, LOL, but He does have different attributes... He is not only MERCY, but He is JUSTICE, and RIGHTEOUSNESS, and etc...

 

[SavedByGrace3]

This thread is in response to this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7749713/

which starts with stories of God saving people shortly before they die. I didn't want to sidetrack an encouraging thread, so started this one.

My problem with the that thread is that while those stories do show God's mercy, there are many more people who die having not experienced the same mercy that these people did.

So - great mercy? Or great mercy for the few? Which doesn't seem that great to me.

Regards,

Mike

Perhaps the people you are referring to were presented with the gospel many times in their lives, and they rejected it.
Mercy refused is still mercy.
Dids

 

[vitaminC]

It is not like God will just change His name to be different, like some do, LOL, but He does have different attributes... He is not only MERCY, but He is JUSTICE, and RIGHTEOUSNESS, and etc...

I am not sure if God actually changes his name , but in the Bible there are many names given to the one God. In Genesis 1:1 God's name is Elohim. But in other places he is called Jehovah Jireh and El Shaddai and El Elyon , to name just a few. His different names do display different ways that he manifests himself.

Even God's people are known to change their name. Abram and Sarai and Jacob and the Apostle Paul. Peter was also called Simon and also called Cephas. Matthew was also known as Levi.

In some cultures , it is still the custom for women to change their last name when they marry. Children who are adopted often change their name. Some people even change their name for protection from dangerous and unstable people because they are in the witness protection program.

Names and name changes are very important in the Bible and carry some importance in many cultures.

But the point is regardless of what name God goes by in a particular instance , his nature is the fullness of many attributes and as it pertains to this thread God interacts with mankind with both mercy and wrath and a whole bunch of other attributes. So it makes perfect sense that sometimes we will see God's mercy in one situation and yet see another attribute of God in another situation.

 

[murjahel]

Even God's people are known to change their name. Abram and Sarai and Jacob and the Apostle Paul. Peter was also called Simon and also called Cephas. Matthew was also known as Levi.

...Names and name changes are very important in the Bible and carry some importance in many cultures.

.

None of those names that men changed... were to deceive, or hide oneself... Paul had a name change, but not to keep the disciples who knew he had helped in killing Stephen from knowing who he was.. they knew... they did not like him.... he had repented... and of course, the people should accept him as Saul or as Paul... but repentance came and they did not all 'forget' ... and did not like him... but at least HE repented...

God does not change names, but He is an infinite being that One name cannot fully describe... So, He added names.. one to emphasize His mercy, One to emphasize His great power, One to emphasize His desire for fellowship, etc.. All were further revelations, not seeking to disquise a name that he had embarrassed... He did not need a new name to disquise or deceive therewith... He had a new name to REVEAL.

 

[MikeBigg]

God can do nothing on earth unless His people pray and give Him a legal invitation to do something here.

Really?

I've not heard that said before. I';m not convinced its true, either.

Kind regards,

Mike

 

[MikeBigg]

...

 

[MikeBigg]

And I apologize if my original post came across as being cold. I didn't realize we were dealing with these personal events that have happened in your town.

No apology necessary, TUF, they were just examples - everyone's town has events like these.

I think the Gospel is Good News, but I also struggle with the times that the Gospel seems to have bad news associated with it.

Blessings,

Mike