God's forknowledge and predistinaiton

biblelesson

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Romans 8:29 and Romans 11:2 use the same greek word for what is translated as "He foreknew" in the NIV (proegnō).
Romans 8:29 KJV
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (This verse uses Foreknow - having seen in the future)

Romans 11:2
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,” (This verse uses Foreknew - having known in the past)

Foreknew is the past tense of the verb Foreknow - https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/foreknew

The NIV translation is incorrect.
 
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biblelesson

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The word foreknew is a derivative of foreknowledge as It is a past tense word.

It cannot be the main verb because there is no such word as Foreknewledge.

Romans 8:29 KJV
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (This verse uses Foreknow - having seen in the future)

Romans 11:2
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,” (This verse uses Foreknew - having known in the past)

So Foreknew can only be past tense of foreknow.

Foreknow, however is the actual verb that has not past yet - it is a present tense verb - continuous.

Foreknow is from a position of seeing something that is going to happen that has not happened yet - present tense continuous.

Foreknew cannot be used in this way, because “knew” has past already.
 
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John Mullally

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The elect are those chosen by God according to His forknowledge, 1 Peter 1:2 KJV
1 Peter 1:2 doesn’t specifically say what the foreknowledge of God is of, and therefore it would be a leap of logic to conclusively assert that the divine foreknowledge in focus of is of the faith of those who would some day, in the future, demonstrate a willingness to believe and hence were appointed by God to join a secret number an elect body on that account (i.e. “the foreseen faith” model of election to salvation). Moreover, this passage does not establish an elect caste vs. non-elect caste. So in the absence of a positive statement on the object of the foreknowledge, one might better conclude that the foreknowledge in focus is of the individuals themselves, rather than an unstated aspect of them, so that having been foreknown as believing Christians, God might elect to use such believers for evangelism and perhaps even martyrdom.
1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.​
 
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John Mullally

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Romans 8:29 and Romans 11:2 use the same greek word for what is translated as "he foreknew" in the NIV (proegnō).
Romans 8:29 KJV
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (This verse uses Foreknow - having seen in the future)

Romans 11:2
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,” (This verse uses Foreknew - having known in the past)

Foreknew is the past tense of the verb Foreknow - https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/foreknew

The NIV translation is incorrect.
Huh? The NIV is more consistent in that it translates the Greek proegnō the same way in the both instances they are used in Romans (as "he foreknew"). And even where the KJV translates the phrase slightly differently - I don't know how you split the hair to say they have a different meaning. What is the the difference between "he did foreknow" (Romans 8:29) and "he foreknew" (Romans 11:2).
 
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biblelesson

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1 Peter 1:2 doesn’t specifically say what the foreknowledge of God is of, and therefore it would be a leap of logic to conclusively assert that the divine foreknowledge in focus of is of the faith of those who would some day, in the future, demonstrate a willingness to believe and hence were appointed by God to join a secret number an elect body on that account (i.e. “the foreseen faith” model of election to salvation). Moreover, this passage does not establish an elect caste vs. non-elect caste. So in the absence of a positive statement on the object of the foreknowledge, one might better conclude that the foreknowledge in focus is of the individuals themselves, rather than an unstated aspect of them, so that having been foreknown as believing Christians, God might elect to use such believers for evangelism and perhaps even martyrdom.
1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.​
1 Peter 1:1 KJV,
Pete’s letter was written to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. Peter’s salutation relates to Romans 8:29-30 KJV, where he addresses these stranger as God’s elect, who have been chosen according to God’s foreknowledge. It is obvious that God’s predestination is not related to just these individuals. Other epistles written by Paul and the other Apostles and disciples have similar salutations written to other groups. The gospel was/is to be preached through all the world, and those who believe will be saved, Mark 16:15-16 KJV

These are just a few scriptures below relating to God’s foreknowledge and predestination where Apostle Paul and other Apostles addressed those they wrote epistles to as the elect, as those that are called, and as those sanctified, etc.

Romans 8:29-30 KJV

29 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
30 “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

Romans 1:5-7 KJV
5 “By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:”
6 “Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 “To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

Titus 1:1-2 KJV
1 “Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;”
2 “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;”

2 Timothy 1:9 KJV,
“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”

1 Thessalonians 5:24 KJV

“Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.”

Romans 8:28 KJV,
“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

1 Peter 2:21 KJV
“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:”

1 Corinthians 1:9 KJV
“God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.”
 
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biblelesson

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Huh? The NIV is more consistent in that it translates the Greek proegnō the same way in the both instances they are used in Romans (as "he foreknew"). And even where the KJV translates the phrase slightly differently - I don't know how you split the hair to say they have a different meaning. What is the the difference between "he did foreknow" (Romans 8:29) and "he foreknew" (Romans 11:2).
There is a big difference. It’s important to use the correct words because,

Foreknow is present tense - continuous: using the word Foreknow means salvation is in the present for all generations even into the future until Christ second coming.

Foreknew is past: using the word Foreknew means salvation is in the past, that Christ has already come, therefore there is no salvation for further believers

So using the word Foreknew in Romans 8:29 KJV is incorrect.

But using Foreknew in Romans 11:2 KJV is correct because God is speaking about the people He knew in the past under the Old Covenant - Israel.

With the NIV translation putting the word Foreknew in the incorrect scripture, it causes a person to believe the word Foreknew in Romans 8:29 KJV, has the same meaning as the word foreknew in Romans 11:2 KJV. With the NIV having done this, there is now confusion and the understanding is lost.

You were not born Greek and can’t say you know that language well enough to understand all of these Greek resources. There are errors. The translation from Greek to English has been done already over 400 years ago. Now we should just consult the English language for understanding.
 
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John Mullally

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1 Peter 1:1 KJV,
Pete’s letter was written to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. Peter’s salutation relates to Romans 8:29-30 KJV, where he addresses these stranger as God’s elect, who have been chosen according to God’s foreknowledge. It is obvious that God’s predestination is not related to just these individuals. Other epistles written by Paul and the other Apostles and disciples have similar salutations written to other groups. The gospel was/is to be preached through all the world, and those who believe will be saved, Mark 16:15-16 KJV

These are just a few scriptures below relating to God’s foreknowledge and predestination where Apostle Paul and other Apostles addressed those they wrote epistles to as the elect, as those that are called, and as those sanctified, etc.

Romans 8:29-30 KJV

29 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
30 “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
Peter's salutation (Peter 1:1) was related to James's salutation as they both address Jewish Christians scattered throughout the world.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.​
We agree that those who believe will be saved (Mark 16:15-16). You said you are not Calvinist, so I would think that means that you don't hold that God picked who would believe before birth. Although, God may know who will be saved: God still so loved the world and God calls all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). In Acts 2:36-41, Peter promises salvation (remission of sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit) to those who will repent and be baptized.
Romans 1:5-7 KJV
5 “By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:”
6 “Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 “To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

Titus 1:1-2 KJV
1 “Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;”
2 “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;”

2 Timothy 1:9 KJV,
“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”

1 Thessalonians 5:24 KJV

“Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.”

Romans 8:28 KJV,
“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

1 Peter 2:21 KJV
“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:”

1 Corinthians 1:9 KJV
“God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Missing from these references is any mention of a fixed and predetermined elect vs. non-elect class, or that God’s choice was irresistible and unconditional, or that God prefers some unbelievers over others.

Jesus Christ is the Elect One, resulting that all who come to be “in Him,” that is, identified with Him in His body and as His bride, jointly share in His election, and hence believers in Him may rightly also be called “the elect” or favored.
 
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biblelesson

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Peter's salutation (Peter 1:1) was related to James's salutation as they both deal with Jewish Christians scattered throughout the world.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.
You are correct, however although Paul was called to preach the gospel to the gentiles, Peter and James salutation relates to Paul’s salutations. Because the content of the gospel, whether to Jews or Gentiles, was the same for both audiences. Jesus made that clear in Acts 9:15 KJV, “But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he [Saul/Paul] is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:”
 
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biblelesson

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Missing from these references is any mention of a fixed and predetermined elect vs. non-elect class, or that God’s choice was irresistible and unconditional, or that God prefers some unbelievers over others.
I’m sure I gave the scriptures that related to what I was saying. Please list those scriptures relating to a fixed and predetermined elect Vs. Non-elect, irresistible or unconditional, showing God prefers unbelievers over others? Which is not true.

But if those scriptures exist, where are they?
 
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John Mullally

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I’m sure I gave the scriptures that related to what I was saying. Please list those scriptures relating to a fixed and predetermined elect Vs. Non-elect, irresistible or unconditional, showing God prefers unbelievers over others? Which is not true.
I don't believe there are scriptures that speak to "a fixed and predetermined elect Vs. Non-elect", which you seem to affirm. Neither do I believe there are scriptures for Irresistible (or unconditional) Grace or God preferring some unbelievers - which you did not affirm.

In two consecutive paragraphs of your opening post (see below), you say the following about election:
  1. Pre-birth election is assigned to those God knows will in their life believe on Christ, and they will be conformed to the image of his son.
  2. Nothing can change God's election.
I am trying to understand what you are getting at. Are you simply saying that believers cannot fall away? If so, you should open with that before starting to use charged and overloaded terms like election, foreknowledge, and predestination just overcomplicates the issue.
God's predestination of the elect is based on his foreknowledge of them(all those who would believe on Christ) before they are born. Therefore to make the election (elect) sure, the life of those who are to be conformed to the image of His Son was/is predestinated based on God's forknowledge of who they are, what they will do, and how they will believe.

God's election is sure, and nothing can change it. This is what is meant in Romans 8:38-39 KJV, 38 "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come," 39 "Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
 
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biblelesson

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I don't believe there are scriptures that speak to "a fixed and predetermined elect Vs. Non-elect", which you seem to affirm. Neither do I believe there are scriptures for Irresistible (or unconditional) Grace or God preferring some unbelievers - which you did not affirm.

In two consecutive paragraphs of your opening post (see below), you say the following about election:
  1. Pre-birth election is assigned to those God knows will in their life believe on Christ, and they will be conformed to the image of his son.
  2. Nothing can change God's election.
I am trying to understand what you are getting at. Are you simply saying that believers cannot fall away? If so, using charged and overloaded terms like election, foreknowledge, and predestination just overcomplicates the issue.
Why are you bringing up an issue you say I didn’t affirm, when you acknowledge you don’t agree either?
I can only say what scripture is saying. If you see the scriptures I listed different from the way I explained them, then please show how you are understanding the scriptures with scripture.

God’s predestination and election is to assure salvation for those who do believe, so that once they accept Christ and receive the Holy Spirit, they will not be lost - so yes, nothing can change God’s election.

You said, “If so, using charged and overloaded terms like election, foreknowledge, and predestination just overcomplicates the issue.”

Are you saying God is over complicating His Own word, because I didn’t write the Bible? I simply explained scriptures the way I understand them!

Or is there a way you expect for me to talk according to how YOU process information although we have different reasoning capacities.

I hope that’s not the case!

God bless!

 
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John Mullally

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Why are you bringing up an issue you say I didn’t affirm, when you acknowledge you don’t agree either?
I can only say what scripture is saying. If you see the scriptures I listed different from the way I explained them, then please show how you are understanding the scriptures with scripture.

God’s predestination and election is to assure salvation for those who do believe, so that once they accept Christ and receive the Holy Spirit, they will not be lost - so yes, nothing can change God’s election.

You said, “If so, using charged and overloaded terms like election, foreknowledge, and predestination just overcomplicates the issue.”

Are you saying God is over complicating His Own word, because I didn’t write the Bible? I simply explained scriptures the way I understand them!
Looking at the responses on this thread, I don't see anyone else picking up on the fact that you are pushing Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) - and there are plenty of threads on that subject in the forum. And yet you could have stated that up front and people would have instantly understood your position. You could have then related how your understanding of Election, Foreknowledge, and Predestination stands up to OSAS.

Election, Foreknowledge, and Predestination are overloaded (largely due to Calvinist argumentation) - thus I try to avoid overloaded words in order to be understandable. Foreknowledge: Just look at your puzzling discussion on "Foreknow", "Foreknew", and "Foreknowledge" - their meanings, according to you, are much varied even though they share the same root word. Election: Are we talking about election to service or election to salvation, and does that election occur before birth, or after conversion, or after God's testing, Is the election made to particular individuals or made to a class of people (like Jews or born-again believers). Predestination: Are we talking about predestination of individuals before birth or to a class of people (like believers).
Or is there a way you expect for me to talk according to how YOU process information although we have different reasoning capacities.

I hope that’s not the case!

God bless!
I couldn't follow what you were recently saying on the "Is believing/faith a work?" thread either.
 
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biblelesson

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Looking at the responses on this thread, I don't see anyone else picking up on the fact that you are pushing Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) - and there are plenty of threads on that subject in the forum. And yet you could have stated that up front and people would have instantly understood your position. You could have then related how your understanding of Election, Foreknowledge, and Predestination stands up to OSAS.
I was just simply speaking about what the Bible teaches. I don’t need to state how my understanding of election and foreknowledge stand up to OSAS, or any other theology.

Actually I provided a lot of scriptures with my understanding of predestination, foreknowledge, and election.


Election, Foreknowledge, and Predestination are overloaded (largely due to Calvinist argumentation) - thus I try to avoid overloaded words in order to be understandable. Foreknowledge: Just look at your puzzling discussion on "Foreknow", "Foreknew", and "Foreknowledge" - their meanings, according to you, are much varied even though they share the same root word. Election: Are we talking about election to service or election to salvation, and does that election occur before birth, or after conversion, or after God's testing, Is the election made to particular individuals or made to a class of people (like Jews or born-again believers). Predestination: Are we talking about predestination of individuals before birth or to a class of people (like believers).
I mentioned in another post I don’t agree with the Calvinist view.

All I can say is God wants the believer to know His word, to include understanding foreknowledge, predestination, and election.

I listed a lot of scripture! God will give you and all of us understanding when we ask!

God bless.
 
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