GOD'S EXHAUSTIVE DEFINITIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE

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Si_monfaith

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Our friend and brother Si has a habit of doing this. He restates your post bending it into something you did not say and do not believe, and then demand that you respond to his straw man. It is a common debate method.. howbeit useless because it usually irrelevant to the discussion.
Don't some people imply a false conclusion in their post and when proven that that particular conclusion of theirs was false, they start calling that particular conclusion they earlier held dear, as a strawman?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Is it a matter of viewpoint? Perspective? I'm not at all certain that our will and choices are any less so for God knowing in advance what we will do.

Yes I agree. If God foresaw that we would choose spaghetti it doesn’t mean that we didn’t choose it and God chose it for us.
 
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BNR32FAN

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We ALWAYS have a choice, Neo.

God is seeking those who LOVE Him with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, who CHOOSE to do this. It is written all throughout His Word, from the very beginning.

To "not" choose to do this IS a choice in itself, Neo.

Jesus Himself invited many to follow Him. Many chose not to.

This is also a choice (both are):
"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." ~Jam 4:7

God bless you Neo.

Love is a gift given freely of our own choice. Would it be if any value to God if we had no choice whether to give it or not? How would that make us any different than a computer simply running its program? I can program my computer to say nice things to me and even do nice things for me but is it as valuable as my wife or my children doing these same things? Would I charish the love of my computer the same as the love of my family?
 
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Si_monfaith

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Yes I agree. If God foresaw that we would choose spaghetti it doesn’t mean that we didn’t choose it and God chose it for us.

If humans could choose otherwise, wouldn't it render God's foreknowledge meaningless?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Can the human will submit and resist without the support from God's will?

No we cannot repent and abide without God’s will but we can always choose to turn away from God and fail to abide at any given moment. If you disagree perhaps you can explain John 15:1-6.
 
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BNR32FAN

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If humans could choose otherwise, wouldn't it render God's foreknowledge meaningless?

We can’t choose otherwise God has foreseen what we will choose. That still doesn’t mean that we did not choose.
 
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Tone

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Matthew 8:10

When the Creator condescends to test our hearts we may exercise His gift of faith to really and truly have free will. In that moment the most wonderful and myserious truth is that we lowly and unworthy beings can actually pleasantly surprise our Creator!

Ephesians 2:8-9
 
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Si_monfaith

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We can’t choose otherwise God has foreseen what we will choose. That still doesn’t mean that we did not choose.
Good to see you agree we can't choose otherwise.

Further, the question isn't whether humans can choose or not but whether the human choice is free or not?
 
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Si_monfaith

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Matthew 8:10

When the Creator condescends to test our hearts we may exercise His gift of faith to really and truly have free will. In that moment the most wonderful and myserious truth is that we lowly and unworthy beings can actually pleasantly surprise our Creator!

Ephesians 2:8-9
Isaiah 46: 10: "Declaring the end from the beginning".

Do you believe God knows our choices from eternity according to the above verse?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Good to see you agree we can't choose otherwise.

Further, the question isn't whether humans can choose or not but whether the human choice is free or not?

What’s the difference between can choose and free to choose?
 
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Si_monfaith

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No we cannot repent and abide without God’s will but we can always choose to turn away from God and fail to abide at any given moment. If you disagree perhaps you can explain John 15:1-6.
I read the passage. Good you agreed that submission and resisting as stated in post #7 is not possible without God first willing it in our lives.

Secondly, philippians 1: 6 says, "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus".

From the above verse, don't you think that God who began the good work will keep us from falling, again by His will?
 
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Tone

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Isaiah 46: 10: "Declaring the end from the beginning".

Do you believe God knows our choices from eternity according to the above verse?

Eve's choice to eat the forbidden fruit demonstrates a captive will.

The Centurion's choice to believe in Messiah demonstrates a free will.

Concerning Isaiah 46:10, yes I believe, and part of His purpose has been to become one of us and marvel at our faith!
 
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Si_monfaith

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What’s the difference between can choose and free to choose?
I will clarify the terms which I used in my question which is:
Further, the question isn't whether humans can choose or not but whether the human choice is free or not?
"Choosing" is referred in two ways: One is by being an instrument under God's free will.

"Free to choose" means choosing without the backing of God's will.
 
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Si_monfaith

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Eve's choice to eat the forbidden fruit demonstrates a captive will.

The Centurion's choice to believe in Messiah demonstrates a free will.

Concerning Isaiah 46:10, yes I believe, and part of His purpose has been to become one of us and marvel at our faith!
How you define captive and free will?

Does Isaiah 46: 10 talk about God's knowledge of our choices from eternity?
 
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Tone

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How you define captive and free will?

Does Isaiah 46: 10 talk about God's knowledge of our choices from eternity?

I used the two passages, one of Eve and the other of the Centurion, to show (not define) what a captive will and a free will look like respectively.

Isaiah 46:10 says:

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

So no, it isn't speaking of our choices at all, it is speaking of His "counsel" as standing and His "pleasure" being done. It seems to be establishing the truth that what is occurring now and what will occur in the future is rooted in "the beginning", which harkens back to the garden.

I was only pointing out that it seems to be His pleasure to accord us free will through faith.
 
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Si_monfaith

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I used the two passages, one of Eve and the other of the Centurion, to show (not define) what a captive will and a free will look like respectively.

Isaiah 46:10 says:

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

So no, it isn't speaking of our choices at all, it is speaking of His "counsel" as standing and His "pleasure" being done. It seems to be establishing the truth that what is occurring now and what will occur in the future is rooted in "the beginning", which harkens back to the garden.

I was only pointing out that it seems to be His pleasure to accord us free will through faith.
Doesn't an illustration follow a definition of terms?

Where does Isaiah 46: 10 talk about God's pleasure as referring to a free will?
 
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Si_monfaith

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A comment, Si_monfaith:

God is not the author of confusion.

Do you mean to say humans caused confusion by their will and which thwarted the purpose which God had for this world before He created it?
 
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Si_monfaith

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This is almost like one of those time travel conundrums where someone goes back in time and kills his grandfather. Therefore the time traveler could never be born and therefore how could he go back in time and kill his grandfather? These are invented scenarios that could never actually happen in reality and so we cannot really discuss them in any meaningful way.
Anyone can make up imaginary senarios and then demand others explain. It is kind of like saying if the sun was made of stone then how could it shine. It would not. But it is not made of stone, it does shine- so what is the point?
Also, just because God knew what our choices would be... than does not affect what choices we make. There is no relation between the two.
Finally, this is what happens to people who hold to the "mere theism" teachings "omni factors" such as omnipotence, omniscience, super sovereignty, etc etc. While debating people who are anti-Wof, I find that they inevitability resort to these "omni factors" to put down faith teaching. WoF teaches that we can ask and believe for whatever we can believe for, and that God will do it. The anti-faith people will inevitably state that we are denying God His sovereignty and are ordering God around. Yet we are only taking God at His Word. They are overruling the words of Jesus with their omni-factors. Essentially they overrule the gospel, Jesus,and the word with these omni-concepts.
We believe that Jesus, not the omni factors, are the true revelation of the Father and His will.
Were references to time travel, sun being made of stone etc made in post #1? Are these strawmen?
 
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brinny

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brinny said:
A comment, Si_monfaith:

God is not the author of confusion.
Do you mean to say humans caused confusion by their will and which thwarted the purpose which God had for this world before He created it?
What has what you posted got to do with my post (#56) that you responded to?
 
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