GOD'S DIETARY LAWS AND BAT SOUP STEW - COVID 19

[BobRyan]

The pandemic was suspected to come from people eating bats, in soups. The reality is any epidemic or pandemic can come from animals, and especially from use of them in animal agriculture. This has always been true and doesn't change, and shouldn't be a surprise.

That is true but in the case of Wuhan COVID - it was gain of function work done in a lab in Wuhan where the safety protocols were a known concern. It was not a variant that could occur in nature and it spread from the area of the lab.

 

[Leaf473]

I'm glad this thread came back. It's a good opportunity to talk about this passage from Luke 11

But give for gifts to the needy those things which are within, and behold, all things will be clean to you.

Peace be with you all.

 

[FredVB]

That is true but in the case of Wuhan COVID - it was gain of function work done in a lab in Wuhan where the safety protocols were a known concern. It was not a variant that could occur in nature and it spread from the area of the lab.

Maybe. I haven't heard if we can know for certain. It should not diminish awareness of the danger of outbreaks leading to epidemics and pandemics from animal agriculture and use of animals.

Is there awareness that prions are increasing?

I'm glad this thread came back. It's a good opportunity to talk about this passage from Luke 11

But give for gifts to the needy those things which are within, and behold, all things will be clean to you.

Again a passage like this for a position which is not shown in context. It was not said to declare everything that could be eaten was alright for food. Jesus spoke to the Pharisees, who Jesus faulted for changing commandments from God with their traditions, he would least of all make such a declaration to them!

See the context that was not shown.

Luke 11:37-41
He went in and sat down to eat. When the Pharisee saw it, he marveled that he had not first washed before dinner. Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. Foolish ones! Did not he who made the outside make the inside also? But rather give alms of such things as you have; then indeed all things are clean to you."

This context clearly shows this also is about ritual washing, a pharisaic tradition, was not supposed to be relevant, with regarding the commandments from God, and their neglect of duty to others when those ones are in need was criticized.

 

[Leaf473]

Maybe. I haven't heard if we can know for certain. It should not diminish awareness of the danger of outbreaks leading to epidemics and pandemics from animal agriculture and use of animals.

Is there awareness that prions are increasing?



Again a passage like this for a position which is not shown in context. It was not said to declare everything that could be eaten was alright for food. Jesus spoke to the Pharisees, who Jesus faulted for changing commandments from God with their traditions, he would least of all make such a declaration to them!

See the context that was not shown.

Luke 11:37-41
He went in and sat down to eat. When the Pharisee saw it, he marveled that he had not first washed before dinner. Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. Foolish ones! Did not he who made the outside make the inside also? But rather give alms of such things as you have; then indeed all things are clean to you."

This context clearly shows this also is about ritual washing, a pharisaic tradition, was not supposed to be relevant, with regarding the commandments from God, and their neglect of duty to others when those ones are in need was criticized.

Leviticus 11 says many things about clean and unclean. One example,
Anything they fall on when they are dead shall be unclean; whether it is any vessel of wood, or clothing, or skin, or sack, whatever vessel it is, with which any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the evening. Then it will be clean.

The Pharisees may have been wrong in their application of those commandments, but the laws themselves were from God.

Then Jesus says,
But give for gifts to the needy those things which are within, and behold, all things will be clean to you.

In practice, invite the poor over for dinner, and you don't have to worry about washing those things which may have become unclean. That's what I think he's saying.

Peace be with you

 

[FredVB]

Godliness that is for us to grow to is not going with just what is permitted, that is not seeking God's highest will, God's perfect will for us in this world of God's creation. If we care for that, we would look through the scriptures, God's revelation, from the start. God's perfect will is shown with the design from the beginning.

All food declared clean is not even a biblical message. An added phrase is there in some versions which is out of context in one single place used. In the context Jesus criticized the Pharisees... for what? For changing the commandments of God with their own traditions. Jesus would have contradicted himself, in their hearing, to change anything then. It was all about how one eats, whether with washing up, or with not washing up. That is the context.

Does God's mind change? I would say it does not! God's perfect will never changes. And there is the way of eating which is the perfect design for us.

Animal products and processed foods are all worse for us and God did not mean those for us, with how God started our world with the creation. What about permission? That really ignores context, and badly, in circumstances far from ideal, with ignoring limitations that were required, and God's perfect will for us was not changed, and God's will never changed. If our conscience was really intact we would understand that easily.

The pandemic was suspected to come from people eating bats, in soups. The reality is any epidemic or pandemic can come from animals, and especially from use of them in animal agriculture. This has always been true and doesn't change, and shouldn't be a surprise.

It's a good opportunity to talk about this passage from Luke 11

But give for gifts to the needy those things which are within, and behold, all things will be clean to you.

It was not said to declare everything that could be eaten was alright for food. Jesus spoke to the Pharisees, who Jesus faulted for changing commandments from God with their traditions, he would least of all make such a declaration to them!

See the context that was not shown.

Luke 11:37-41
He went in and sat down to eat. When the Pharisee saw it, he marveled that he had not first washed before dinner. Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. Foolish ones! Did not he who made the outside make the inside also? But rather give alms of such things as you have; then indeed all things are clean to you."

This context clearly shows this also is about ritual washing, a pharisaic tradition, was not supposed to be relevant, with regarding the commandments from God, and their neglect of duty to others when those ones are in need was criticized.

Leviticus 11 says many things about clean and unclean. One example,
Anything they fall on when they are dead shall be unclean; whether it is any vessel of wood, or clothing, or skin, or sack, whatever vessel it is, with which any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the evening. Then it will be clean.

The Pharisees may have been wrong in their application of those commandments, but the laws themselves were from God.

Then Jesus says,
But give for gifts to the needy those things which are within, and behold, all things will be clean to you.

In practice, invite the poor over for dinner, and you don't have to worry about washing those things which may have become unclean. That's what I think he's saying.

There is requirement shown for the people who were in contact with the dead, or in fact in contact with any person still remaining unclean, to use this ceremonial washing, as a part of being made clean again. The same ways to be clean are not available to all and people in general come into contact with others who are unclean according to that approach, so everyone would be unclean in times since then. Except, it is Jesus with whom we, just us who are really believers and in him, have the way to be clean in the way that matters before God. Jesus had not just been touching the dead, but those Jesus reached and touched were made clean from him, Jesus the source of that really did not need to be cleaned, while he had gone through the ceremonial washing that the baptism from John was, while it was designating other things, including the anointing on Jesus. The only way we can be effectively clean now before God as needed is through Jesus Christ. And significantly sacrifice of animals was not to continue, it is not effective for anything, we just need Jesus. Having anything from animals is still not as good for us, and it is not of the perfect design for us, we really don't need animals beIng killed for us.

 

[Leaf473]

There is requirement shown for the people who were in contact with the dead, or in fact in contact with any person still remaining unclean, to use this ceremonial washing, as a part of being made clean again. The same ways to be clean are not available to all and people in general come into contact with others who are unclean according to that approach, so everyone would be unclean in times since then. Except, it is Jesus with whom we, just us who are really believers and in him, have the way to be clean in the way that matters before God. Jesus had not just been touching the dead, but those Jesus reached and touched were made clean from him, Jesus the source of that really did not need to be cleaned, while he had gone through the ceremonial washing that the baptism from John was, while it was designating other things, including the anointing on Jesus. The only way we can be effectively clean now before God as needed is through Jesus Christ. And significantly sacrifice of animals was not to continue, it is not effective for anything, we just need Jesus. Having anything from animals is still not as good for us, and it is not of the perfect design for us, we really don't need animals beIng killed for us.

This passage from Leviticus 11 speaks about objects and food which would otherwise be clean but has become unclean, not people. Jesus says give what is inside (the objects/vessels?) to the poor, and everything will be clean to you. To me, that sounds like a change.

On whatever any of them falls when they are dead, it shall be unclean; whether it is any vessel of wood, or clothing, or skin, or sack, whatever vessel it is, with which any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the evening; then it will be clean.

33 Every earthen vessel, into which any of them falls, all that is in it shall be unclean, and you shall break it.

34 All food which may be eaten, that on which water comes, shall be unclean; and all drink that may be drunk in every such vessel shall be unclean.

35 Everything whereupon part of their carcass falls shall be unclean; whether oven, or range for pots, it shall be broken in pieces: they are unclean, and shall be unclean to you.

Peace be with you

 

[FredVB]

This passage from Leviticus 11 speaks about objects and food which would otherwise be clean but has become unclean, not people. Jesus says give what is inside (the objects/vessels?) to the poor, and everything will be clean to you. To me, that sounds like a change.

On whatever any of them falls when they are dead, it shall be unclean; whether it is any vessel of wood, or clothing, or skin, or sack, whatever vessel it is, with which any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the evening; then it will be clean.

33 Every earthen vessel, into which any of them falls, all that is in it shall be unclean, and you shall break it.

34 All food which may be eaten, that on which water comes, shall be unclean; and all drink that may be drunk in every such vessel shall be unclean.

35 Everything whereupon part of their carcass falls shall be unclean; whether oven, or range for pots, it shall be broken in pieces: they are unclean, and shall be unclean to you.

Peace be with you

If you read yet more of the law in scripture it could be seen that according to it with contact with one who is unclean the proper routine must be done for one's self to not then be unclean. Since this is not being done, according to what is written there everyone is unclean by that standard, we all have had contact with others who are unclean. But in Christ, who fulfills the needed things in the law for that we are made clean in the way we need to be before God.

Where Jesus Christ spoke with Pharisees who changed commandments with their traditions, there's no basis from scriptures to say he was needing ritual washing to eat, and needing to be made clean from having contact with any dead would require more routine to be made clean than the ritual washing before eating. The ritual washing was the tradition that Jesus was critical of in the context for saying what one is eating is clean anyway. And, what God did permit is not of God's perfect will.

 

[Leaf473]

If you read yet more of the law in scripture it could be seen that according to it with contact with one who is unclean the proper routine must be done for one's self to not then be unclean. Since this is not being done, according to what is written there everyone is unclean by that standard, we all have had contact with others who are unclean. But in Christ, who fulfills the needed things in the law for that we are made clean in the way we need to be before God.

Where Jesus Christ spoke with Pharisees who changed commandments with their traditions, there's no basis from scriptures to say he was needing ritual washing to eat, and needing to be made clean from having contact with any dead would require more routine to be made clean than the ritual washing before eating. The ritual washing was the tradition that Jesus was critical of in the context for saying what one is eating is clean anyway. And, what God did permit is not of God's perfect will.

I don't understand why you keep bringing up people being unclean.

Jesus talks about "...everything will be clean to you." Things.

And that part of Leviticus 11 that I was quoting talks about objects becoming unclean, and food which would otherwise be clean becoming unclean.

"...it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the evening; then it will be clean." You wake up in the morning and find a dead lizard on your cell phone. Do you submerge it in water?

 

[FredVB]

I don't understand why you keep bringing up people being unclean.

Jesus talks about "...everything will be clean to you." Things.

And that part of Leviticus 11 that I was quoting talks about objects becoming unclean, and food which would otherwise be clean becoming unclean.

"...it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the evening; then it will be clean." You wake up in the morning and find a dead lizard on your cell phone. Do you submerge it in water?

The law from God is good. There isn't something wrong with it, the problem we have with it is that there are things wrong with us. Do you know that? You say things are all made clean, out of context, with claiming that expectation of Jesus needing to wash according to the ritual had basis in the law, that he wouldn't observe, so because you claim this I should speak of how people would be unclean, that would make any ritual to be clean then be made necessary according to the law from God. So then look at Leviticus 5. See these verses 2-13.

"Or if anyone touches any unclean thing, whether it is the carcass of an unclean animal, or the carcass of unclean livestock, or the carcass of unclean creeping things, and it is hidden from him, and he is unclean, then he shall be guilty. Or if he touches the uncleanness of man, whatever his uncleanness is with which he is unclean, and it is hidden from him; when he knows of it, then he shall be guilty. Or if anyone swears rashly with his lips to do evil or to do good—whatever it is that a man might utter rashly with an oath, and it is hidden from him—when he knows of it, then he will be guilty of one of these. It shall be, when he is guilty of one of these, he shall confess that in which he has sinned; and he shall bring his trespass offering to Yahweh for his sin which he has sinned: a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin. If he can’t afford a lamb, then he shall bring his trespass offering for that in which he has sinned, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, to Yahweh; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering. He shall bring them to the priest, who shall first offer the one which is for the sin offering. He shall wring off its head from its neck, but shall not sever it completely. He shall sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering. He shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the ordinance; and the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin which he has sinned, and he shall be forgiven. But if he can’t afford two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he shall bring as his offering for that in which he has sinned, one tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, and he shall not put any frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering. He shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as the memorial portion, and burn it on the altar, on the offerings of Yahweh made by fire. It is a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin that he has sinned in any of these things, and he will be forgiven; and the rest shall be the priest’s, as the meal offering."

Do you do these things? Do you know anyone at all who does these things? You and all others you know are otherwise unclean according to this standard, from the law from God. But through Christ who fulfills these things that we can't still do, we are made clean in the effective way before God. Christ is the only way for us in this, others all remain effectively unclean before God.

Had Jesus Christ been unclean that he needed ritual washing according to the law, it would have been from whatever made him unclean and he would have to do much more than the traditional ritual from the Pharisees, who used their traditions as if those were the law from God.

Again, when Jesus Christ said that it will be all clean for you it was in the context specifically shown where Pharisees who were present right then expected their ritual washing to be observed. Jesus had an issue specifically with that and was not changing commandments from God in front of those he criticized for putting traditions in the place of commandments from God. There is only the one understanding from it that is actually sensible with this context.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Again, when Jesus Christ said that it will be all clean for you it was in the context specifically shown where Pharisees who were present right then expected their ritual washing to be observed. Jesus had an issue specifically with that and was not changing commandments from God in front of those he criticized for putting traditions in the place of commandments from God. There is only the one understanding from it that is actually sensible with this context.

Amen! Isaiah 66:17 clearly demonstrates nothing changed in the heath laws.

Happy Sabbath!

 

[Leaf473]

The law from God is good. There isn't something wrong with it, the problem we have with it is that there are things wrong with us. Do you know that? You say things are all made clean, out of context, with claiming that expectation of Jesus needing to wash according to the ritual had basis in the law, that he wouldn't observe, so because you claim this I should speak of how people would be unclean, that would make any ritual to be clean then be made necessary according to the law from God. So then look at Leviticus 5. See these verses 2-13.

"Or if anyone touches any unclean thing, whether it is the carcass of an unclean animal, or the carcass of unclean livestock, or the carcass of unclean creeping things, and it is hidden from him, and he is unclean, then he shall be guilty. Or if he touches the uncleanness of man, whatever his uncleanness is with which he is unclean, and it is hidden from him; when he knows of it, then he shall be guilty. Or if anyone swears rashly with his lips to do evil or to do good—whatever it is that a man might utter rashly with an oath, and it is hidden from him—when he knows of it, then he will be guilty of one of these. It shall be, when he is guilty of one of these, he shall confess that in which he has sinned; and he shall bring his trespass offering to Yahweh for his sin which he has sinned: a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin. If he can’t afford a lamb, then he shall bring his trespass offering for that in which he has sinned, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, to Yahweh; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering. He shall bring them to the priest, who shall first offer the one which is for the sin offering. He shall wring off its head from its neck, but shall not sever it completely. He shall sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering. He shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the ordinance; and the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin which he has sinned, and he shall be forgiven. But if he can’t afford two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he shall bring as his offering for that in which he has sinned, one tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, and he shall not put any frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering. He shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as the memorial portion, and burn it on the altar, on the offerings of Yahweh made by fire. It is a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin that he has sinned in any of these things, and he will be forgiven; and the rest shall be the priest’s, as the meal offering."

Do you do these things? Do you know anyone at all who does these things? You and all others you know are otherwise unclean according to this standard, from the law from God. But through Christ who fulfills these things that we can't still do, we are made clean in the effective way before God. Christ is the only way for us in this, others all remain effectively unclean before God.

Had Jesus Christ been unclean that he needed ritual washing according to the law, it would have been from whatever made him unclean and he would have to do much more than the traditional ritual from the Pharisees, who used their traditions as if those were the law from God.

Again, when Jesus Christ said that it will be all clean for you it was in the context specifically shown where Pharisees who were present right then expected their ritual washing to be observed. Jesus had an issue specifically with that and was not changing commandments from God in front of those he criticized for putting traditions in the place of commandments from God. There is only the one understanding from it that is actually sensible with this context.

Luke 11
The Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the platter, but your inward part is full of extortion and wickedness.

Jesus is talking about things. People, too? Probably.

No, I don't make the animal sacrifices talked about in Leviticus 5.

But Leviticus 11 contains things we could do.
On whatever any of them falls when they are dead... ...it must be put into water.

So again, you wake up in the morning and find a dead lizard on your cell phone. Do you submerge it in water?

Peace be with you

 

[FredVB]

Luke 11
The Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the platter, but your inward part is full of extortion and wickedness.

Jesus is talking about things. People, too? Probably.

No, I don't make the animal sacrifices talked about in Leviticus 5.

But Leviticus 11 contains things we could do.
On whatever any of them falls when they are dead... ...it must be put into water.

So again, you wake up in the morning and find a dead lizard on your cell phone. Do you submerge it in water?

Peace be with you

I think you are missing the points made with this response. You quote there what shows that Jesus was clearly speaking to the Pharisees, the very ones who Jesus criticized for their holding their traditions in place of the commandments from God. I did say there is no way pretty much anyone is clean now according to requirements in the law from God, so that is moot. They are all unclean, and unacceptable to God, unless they come in repentant faith to be in Christ, responding to God's grace through the atonement in Christ's payment bearing what he went through for us. So we who are in Christ are clean already in the needed way. So your questions are moot. It does not matter to us now. But we can use common sense. We would do what would be better for us still. Or, at least some of us would. I don't have any idea where I would be for any kind of lizard to fall on my cellphone. If it was a monitor dragonlizard, I guess I would run away. If it was really small and disposable I don't know but I might wipe the cellphone off well afterwards. If it fell in my cup, I wouldn't drink from it anymore, but, if I don't decide to just throw it away, I might modify it to use as a planter. I don't just dismiss that there are germs, and I can act with choosing accordingly, though there is nothing said in the Bible about germs. There are things we know to exist besides what is shown from the Bible. I don't dismiss that. I don't dismiss that are healthier choices we can make. But there is nothing negating commandments from God, which God also said were meant for perpetuity, just as God said the name of God was for all generations to remember for perpetuity. With any growing toward godliness we should be caring about what is of God's perfect will for us.

 

[Leaf473]

I think you are missing the points made with this response. You quote there what shows that Jesus was clearly speaking to the Pharisees, the very ones who Jesus criticized for their holding their traditions in place of the commandments from God. I did say there is no way pretty much anyone is clean now according to requirements in the law from God, so that is moot. They are all unclean, and unacceptable to God, unless they come in repentant faith to be in Christ, responding to God's grace through the atonement in Christ's payment bearing what he went through for us. So we who are in Christ are clean already in the needed way. So your questions are moot. It does not matter to us now. But we can use common sense. We would do what would be better for us still. Or, at least some of us would. I don't have any idea where I would be for any kind of lizard to fall on my cellphone. If it was a monitor dragonlizard, I guess I would run away. If it was really small and disposable I don't know but I might wipe the cellphone off well afterwards. If it fell in my cup, I wouldn't drink from it anymore, but, if I don't decide to just throw it away, I might modify it to use as a planter. I don't just dismiss that there are germs, and I can act with choosing accordingly, though there is nothing said in the Bible about germs. There are things we know to exist besides what is shown from the Bible. I don't dismiss that. I don't dismiss that are healthier choices we can make. But there is nothing negating commandments from God, which God also said were meant for perpetuity, just as God said the name of God was for all generations to remember for perpetuity. With any growing toward godliness we should be caring about what is of God's perfect will for us.

Hi Fred, good to hear from you again.

As I understood the OP, the thrust of it is whether there have been changes to the laws about what is clean and unclean.

The question should also be considered can something that is clean yesterday be unclean today?

It sounds like from your post that you believe that there are some changes to what is clean and unclean. If so, then Cool, we agree!

Ephesians 4:3
...being eager to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

May the Lord bless you and keep you

 

[FredVB]

Hi Fred, good to hear from you again.

As I understood the OP, the thrust of it is whether there have been changes to the laws about what is clean and unclean.


It sounds like from your post that you believe that there are some changes to what is clean and unclean. If so, then Cool, we agree!

Ephesians 4:3
...being eager to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

May the Lord bless you and keep you

Jesus Christ is the fulfillment. That does not mean we are not to do the things we could do from God's commandments. Christ was always really the only way to be effectively clean before God the way we need to be, the rituals of being clean shown are types for the need to be clean, so observers were ritually clean, yet Christ's fulfillment was their and our way of being really clean in the needed way, with the faith that is essential. So the rituals are not needed while the need and the way to be clean has not changed

 

[Leaf473]

Jesus Christ is the fulfillment. That does not mean we are not to do the things we could do from God's commandments. Christ was always really the only way to be effectively clean before God the way we need to be, the rituals of being clean shown are types for the need to be clean, so observers were ritually clean, yet Christ's fulfillment was their and our way of being really clean in the needed way, with the faith that is essential. So the rituals are not needed while the need and the way to be clean has not changed

I don't understand how these two parts go together

That does not mean we are not to do the things we could do from God's commandments.

So the rituals are not needed...

unless you mean that the rituals were not commandments. Sometimes people divide the law into ordinances, statutes, commandments, and so on, and say that some we keep, and some we don't.

Leviticus 26
But if you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments, 15 and if you shall reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant...

Peace be with you

 

[TruthNotTradition7]

A few weeks ago one of the Elders at the Church we attend spoke on dietary laws. I made a clip of it

 

[SabbathBlessings]

A few weeks ago one of the Elders at the Church we attend spoke on dietary laws. I made a clip of it

I will have to check this out….thanks for sharing.

Here is another video on why we should obey God’s heath plan- to be heathy! It details why the foods that are deemed unclean why they are unhealthy. Our good Lord when He made us designed us so He knows what’s best for us.

Happy Sabbath!

 

[FredVB]

I don't understand how these two parts go together


unless you mean that the rituals were not commandments. Sometimes people divide the law into ordinances, statutes, commandments, and so on, and say that some we keep, and some we don't.

Leviticus 26
But if you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments, 15 and if you shall reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant...

Peace be with you

It is with not wanting to look at commandments to live better, which is not believed, that the part mentioned is not understood. So maybe I can say it as simply as possible. From the Epistle to the Hebrews I know that the priesthood, the sacrifices, and the way to be made clean in the way it is needed to come before Yahweh God for anything is fulfilled in Christ, whose work of atonement was the only effective way all along. Nothing about commandments is said the same way. Christ fulfilled all of the old covenant for those who come to God and are God's people, that they are not under judgment which he bore for them. Believers should still do what is right and learn to avoid what is shown to be sin, with what is revealed for that.

So, if you can be clean in the old covenant way which Christ in fulfilling that provides for, do so, but sacrifices that we don't need to do, with coming to Christ, are involved with that, or you will never be clean according to the old covenant way of being clean.

 

[Leaf473]

It is with not wanting to look at commandments to live better, which is not believed, that the part mentioned is not understood. So maybe I can say it as simply as possible. From the Epistle to the Hebrews I know that the priesthood, the sacrifices, and the way to be made clean in the way it is needed to come before Yahweh God for anything is fulfilled in Christ, whose work of atonement was the only effective way all along. Nothing about commandments is said the same way. Christ fulfilled all of the old covenant for those who come to God and are God's people, that they are not under judgment which he bore for them. Believers should still do what is right and learn to avoid what is shown to be sin, with what is revealed for that.

So, if you can be clean in the old covenant way which Christ in fulfilling that provides for, do so, but sacrifices that we don't need to do, with coming to Christ, are involved with that, or you will never be clean according to the old covenant way of being clean.

So... This part here

Believers should still do what is right and learn to avoid what is shown to be sin, with what is revealed for that.

Would that include submerging your cell phone in water?

 

[FredVB]

So... This part here

Would that include submerging your cell phone in water?

So, do you just want to miss that no one can be clean through their own observance in the way we are made clean coming to Christ, which I repeatedly say? My cell phone and most of those of others are not water proof and will be ruined with being submerged under water. Who does that? We don't eat off of our phones. So, what for, if, as I have said, we do not make ourselves clean or remain clean that way, and any routines can't help for that. So it is useless to try to peg me as legalistic, I don't claim to be. But what changes I do imperfectly sound like more than you do, not trying for betterment in any way with things shown in the old testament of God's word.