God's choice above ours: Concerning Heaven

[bling]

God also demands we love him with our whole being. Is the big time proud sinner able to do that?

If his means of humbling is by God's action on the person, yes, the big time proud sinner is able to do that --ONLY BY GOD'S GRACE. Not by innate ability.

As far as humility goes: Luke 14:11 For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.” All people fall into those humbling themselves today and those exalting themselves and those exalting themselves today will later be humbled. The humble would have to be the same in both cases to be apples to apples. This would suggest God has given the ability to be humble to everyone.
I explained Godly type this in post 8
You can actually take any Biblical command and say: “This is man’s objective and have Biblical support for that conclusion (the Bible says this is what we are to do!) I think you would agree: all these command are subordinate to the commands: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy.” The first issue with fulfilling that command is the fact: we (including Adam and Eve) do not start out with such an all consuming Godly type Love, so how do we obtain such a love?

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like God cannot make another Christ since Christ is not a created being. The big inability for us is to be created with instinctive (programmed) Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real likely alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus (Luke 7: 36-50) and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

We are not making some honorable choice to accept God’s forgiveness, since sin burdens us and we just want undeserved relief from our pain and burden.

In order to be forgiven of sin you must first sin, so sin is necessary, but not desired.

This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing mature adult individuals to see, receive, give, experience, accept and know Godly type Love. All these tragedies provide opportunities for Love, but that does not mean we go around causing opportunities, since we are to be ceasing these opportunities (there are plenty of opportunities) to show/experience Love.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Jesus prayed: "forgive them they know not what they do" so who did not know what they were doing?

Well answered. However, that does not change his point --it only denies the veracity of his claim concerning Christ's praying; He maybe should have been more specific. I'm thinking he was referring to John 17.

 

[bling]

You forget one thing. The One KEY thing. The lost cannot please God (Rom. 8:7-8) so they cant choose christ because to do so would please God. Romans 9:22 debunks your entire claim. Some are vessels of his wrath and some are vessels of his mercy. Who they are predestined to be was chosen by God before the foundation of the world began and that choosing was done according to his will not the will of man.

I have stated this in several ways: Yes!! Sinful unbelieving man can do nothing: noble, honorable, worthy, or righteous.

The unbelieving sinful person cannot “choose” Christ, but the unbelieving sinful person can for very selfish reasons (something very unpleasing to God) can wimp out, give up and surrender just willing to humble accept undeserved charity from God.

I have repeatedly explained Ro.9:

Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.



The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!



This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).



Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?



If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?



This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.



Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”



The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).



How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.



Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.



Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!



The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.



If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.







The Jews were given a higher position on earth, but with that position came added responsibility which they poorly handled. I do not see them in Rome having any advantage over the gentile Christians, but what do you think?



I will add your comment about Paul using Jerimiah’s reference to the Potter, since they are very different. In Jerimiah the pot has not been made and is still clay being molded by the Potter, with Paul the pots are completed and have gone forth. As 1stcenterylady pointed out in 2 Tim. 2:10 the common vessels can become somehow vessels of honor (special).

 

[bling]

Well answered. However, that does not change his point --it only denies the veracity of his claim concerning Christ's praying; He maybe should have been more specific. I'm thinking he was referring to John 17.

Who was there at the cross at that time?
When did Jesus not address the people around him at the time?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Who was there at the cross at that time?
When did Jesus not address the people around him at the time?

John 17. He wasn't talking to anyone but God while he was praying.

I think 1reformedman was referring to that, not to when he was on the cross. He just didn't say so.

 

[bling]

John 17. He wasn't talking to anyone but God while he was praying.

I think 1reformedman was referring to that, not to when he was on the cross. He just didn't say so.

the 12 heard that part of His pray.

 

[Mark Quayle]

the 12 heard that part of His pray.

That was 1refo's point, I think, when Christ was praying in John 17. Only the apostles, apparently.