God's choice above ours: Concerning Heaven

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,005
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
God limits His own “rights” by saying “He is not misleading”, He is “Love” and presents the definition of “Love” in all that Christ did and said. He is totally “just” and defines unjust and just in scripture and with Christ. He is merciful, charitable, kind, gracious, patient, jealous over us, and has wrath toward those who continue to refuse His help to the point they will never change.

I see all God’s actions as being merciful, fair and just, but you seem to be saying God does not show mercy on some people?

It is not “just” to be only merciful to some and not all.

Read his account of Matthew 20 of the Owner who hires workers to his field, agreeing to a sum for the day's work, then hires more at midday, to whom he decides to pay the same sum (not the same rate), then with only one hour of work left does the same with others. Why should the first hired, who worked all day, complain about his generosity to the others? Did they not agree to the terms?

So it is with the lost. They have agreed to the terms, as do we all while we rebel. But he has mercy with some.

Or take a harder look: He can do whatever he wants with his creatures. Without him, they do not own the dignity of life that we desire. He need not respect us as Free Willed creatures, worthy of his notice. AND YES, he is that much greater in every way than we are.

But be comforted. He will not inflict punishment upon anyone more than they deserve. His justice is precise, though thorough.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: 1Reformedman
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,507
Georgia
✟899,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
To me, everything I have found out about God seems very specific --even the things we want to consider as general, such as his attention to all things, his omnipresence, perhaps even his love, his choice of a whole nation (as opposed) to individuals within that nation (or so it may seem, at first), his application of individuals as members of the Body of Christ, or Bride of Christ-- all these in further study turn out to be VERY specific.

He has certain of us that he calls the Elect, upon whom he has placed unmerited favor, for his own purposes --this we know-- but we should know more than that, if we have the desire to understand more. He has told us that those he has chosen he will not lose. As I have studied I have become convinced, not just by plain logic but by many passages in Scripture (and by the whole of Scripture), that God has no backup plan,

Isaiah 5:
2 He dug it all around, removed its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
And He built a tower in the middle of it
And also hewed out a wine vat in it;
Then He expected it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.
3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
5 “So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard:
I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed;
I will break down its wall and it will become trampled ground.
6 “I will lay it waste;

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Matthew 23: 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would not. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

Luke 7: 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,005
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
God limits His own “rights” by saying “He is not misleading”, He is “Love” and presents the definition of “Love” in all that Christ did and said. He is totally “just” and defines unjust and just in scripture and with Christ. He is merciful, charitable, kind, gracious, patient, jealous over us, and has wrath toward those who continue to refuse His help to the point they will never change.

I see all God’s actions as being merciful, fair and just, but you seem to be saying God does not show mercy on some people?

It is not “just” to be only merciful to some and not all.
A note: He is merciful to all in several ways, such as the fact that he limits how much trouble we would get into if our "free will" was permitted to run amok.
 
Upvote 0

1Reformedman

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
454
152
57
St. Louis
✟4,261.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Advocating for autonomy of the will doesn’t validate or prove one’s choices are genuine. It just shows one’s denial of Gods Sovereignty. Choices one makes stems from ones desires and nature. You are dead in sin. You cannot desire righteousness apart from regeneration simply because by nature you are a slave to sin and satan. If God changes the disposition of a person to desire Christ and His righteousness in repentance how is that any less genuine?

If God does the regenerating its far more genuine than a claim to free will choice in salvation when the lost one is spiritually dead, deaf and blind. They cant please God and the will isn't free. Its in Bondage to Christ or sin. One must be made spiritually alive in order to "receive " Christ. The bible never says a word about choosing christ unto salvation being a validated claim. In fact Jesus said exactly the opposite. "You didn't choose me. I chose you"
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,005
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Advocating for autonomy of the will doesn’t validate or prove one’s choices are genuine. It just shows one’s denial of Gods Sovereignty. Choices one makes stems from ones desires and nature. You are dead in sin. You cannot desire righteousness apart from regeneration simply because by nature you are a slave to sin and satan. If God changes the disposition of a person to desire Christ and His righteousness in repentance how is that any less genuine?

Hard experience showed me, by God's grace, that we are made for this very purpose, and are not genuine until he lives in us. Even then, we are only genuine BECAUSE he is in us.

(One Reformed believer of my acquaintance even goes so far as to say that no HUMAN will be in the Lake of Fire, and I assume what he is referring to by that is this very thing. The soul of the lost in that place no longer resembles human, but a horror to which I believe even the devil cannot match, as conversely, we Redeemed are above the angels. That horror is the genuine nature completely without God.)
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,005
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Luke 14: 11 For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
That is saying those who exalt themselves will be humbled and it would have to be the same humble that those who humble themselves or Christ is not giving apples for apple comparison?
So the big time proud sinner does have the power to be humble?
God also demands we love him with our whole being. Is the big time proud sinner able to do that?

If his means of humbling is by God's action on the person, yes, the big time proud sinner is able to do that --ONLY BY GOD'S GRACE. Not by innate ability.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: 1Reformedman
Upvote 0

1Reformedman

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
454
152
57
St. Louis
✟4,261.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hard experience showed me, by God's grace, that we are made for this very purpose, and are not genuine until he lives in us. Even then, we are only genuine BECAUSE he is in us.

(One Reformed believer of my acquaintance even goes so far as to say that no HUMAN will be in the Lake of Fire, and I assume what he is referring to by that is this very thing. The soul of the lost in that place no longer resembles human, but a horror to which I believe even the devil cannot match, as conversely, we Redeemed are above the angels. That horror is the genuine nature completely without God.)

Brother, I will assume you are talking about me when you mentioned the one reformed believer of your acquaintance. I say there will not be a single human being found in the lake of fire. I say that because when we are resurrected we have immortal bodies, not these temporal human corruptible ones.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

1Reformedman

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
454
152
57
St. Louis
✟4,261.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A note: He is merciful to all in several ways, such as the fact that he limits how much trouble we would get into if our "free will" was permitted to run amok.

Right and when God says he hardens the hearts he doesn't actually harden them. What he does is he removes his hand of influence which keeps them from sinning as much as they would normally do if God didn't prevent some of it by his power. If God let us run amuck, as you stated, the world would be a far worse place than it already is. Pharaoh's actions against the Israelites is a perfect example of God removing that hand of influence.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,005
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Brother, I will assume you are talking about me when you mentioned the one reformed believer of your acquaintance. I say there will not be a single human being found in the lake of fire. I say that because when we are resurrected we have immortal bodies, not these temporal human corruptible ones.
Even better than my poor description --exactly right. As CS Lewis calls those in the Lake of Fire, Immortal Horrors.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: 1Reformedman
Upvote 0

1Reformedman

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
454
152
57
St. Louis
✟4,261.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Even better than my poor description --exactly right. As CS Lewis calls those in the Lake of Fire, Immortal Horrors.

In the words of Elvis Presley "Thank you. Thank you, very much"!! Takes a bow.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

1Reformedman

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
454
152
57
St. Louis
✟4,261.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God is perfectly just (treat everyone equally in the things that really matter) and perfectly gracious (Loving everyone with a Godly type Love).

It would not be, just, fair or Loving to judge one person guilty without providing them with the same needed stuff that allows another person to be found innocent of the same crime.

You bring up Ro. 9 which needs the full context to understand:

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.



The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!



This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).



Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?



If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?



This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.



Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”



The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).



How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.



Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.



Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!



The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.



If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.


So, God “built” something selfishly for Himself?

Starting with God is Love (the epitome of Love), which means God is totally unselfish and is not doing stuff for His own sake, but is doing everything for the sake of man which is also God’s desire and might be referred to as His sake.

God would be doing or allowing everything to help humans who are just willing to accept His help to fulfill their earthly objective.

So, God allows evil to happen to help humans, but God also allowed Christ to go to the cross to help humans.

There is really nothing you (a created being) can “do” to help the Creator, but you can allow of your own free will God to help you, which is God’s desire, since God is a huge giver of gifts.

Man’s objective is found in the God given Mission statement of: Loving God (and secondly Loving others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy. In order to fulfill that mission man must first obtain Godly type Love which will make man like God Himself in that man will Love like God Loves. Would becoming like God Himself not be the greatest gift we could get?

The objective is not to never ever sin, but to obtain this Godly type Love is the first of man’s objective.

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is to be created with instinctive (programmed) Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real likely alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus (Luke 7: 36-50) and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

In order to be forgiven of sin you must first sin, so sin is necessary but not desired.

This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing mature adult individuals to see, receive, give, experience, accept and know Godly type Love. All these tragedies provide opportunities for Love, but that does not mean we go around causing opportunities, since we are to be ceasing these opportunities (there are plenty of opportunities) to show/experience Love.

You do not have to believe the Adam and Eve story is true to get lots of good messages from it. Most people go through a time in which they ask: “How could a Loving God allow such a thing”, which means “why does God not start us all out in a Garden type situation without, needy people, limited resources, death, and questions about His existence?”

What we can do is thank Adam and Eve for showing us and them that what we might consider the ideal situation is a lousy situation for man to fulfill his earthly objective. Adam and Eve as our very best all human representatives did not fulfill the objective while sinless in the Garden and really could not. The situation after sinning outside the Garden did provide a way to fulfill the objective.

I and it seems other have to have opportunities at our doorstep to respond with Love, if I would just cease the opportunities at some distance there might be few opportunities (tragedies) needed for me, so if you want to blame someone for all these tragedies blame me for not ceasing more earlier.

Hell does nothing for the people going to hell, but that was their choice since they kept refusing to accept God’s help (forgiveness, Love, grace, mercy, charity) to the point they will never humbly accept. Hell does help some willing individuals to not put off their acceptance of God’s help.

You forget one thing. The One KEY thing. The lost cannot please God (Rom. 8:7-8) so they cant choose christ because to do so would please God. Romans 9:22 debunks your entire claim. Some are vessels of his wrath and some are vessels of his mercy. Who they are predestined to be was chosen by God before the foundation of the world began and that choosing was done according to his will not the will of man.
 
Upvote 0

1Reformedman

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
454
152
57
St. Louis
✟4,261.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God is perfectly just (treat everyone equally in the things that really matter) and perfectly gracious (Loving everyone with a Godly type Love).

It would not be, just, fair or Loving to judge one person guilty without providing them with the same needed stuff that allows another person to be found innocent of the same crime.

You bring up Ro. 9 which needs the full context to understand:

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.



The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!



This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).



Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?



If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?



This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.



Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”



The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).



How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.



Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.



Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!



The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.



If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.


So, God “built” something selfishly for Himself?

Starting with God is Love (the epitome of Love), which means God is totally unselfish and is not doing stuff for His own sake, but is doing everything for the sake of man which is also God’s desire and might be referred to as His sake.

God would be doing or allowing everything to help humans who are just willing to accept His help to fulfill their earthly objective.

So, God allows evil to happen to help humans, but God also allowed Christ to go to the cross to help humans.

There is really nothing you (a created being) can “do” to help the Creator, but you can allow of your own free will God to help you, which is God’s desire, since God is a huge giver of gifts.

Man’s objective is found in the God given Mission statement of: Loving God (and secondly Loving others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy. In order to fulfill that mission man must first obtain Godly type Love which will make man like God Himself in that man will Love like God Loves. Would becoming like God Himself not be the greatest gift we could get?

The objective is not to never ever sin, but to obtain this Godly type Love is the first of man’s objective.

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is to be created with instinctive (programmed) Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real likely alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus (Luke 7: 36-50) and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

In order to be forgiven of sin you must first sin, so sin is necessary but not desired.

This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing mature adult individuals to see, receive, give, experience, accept and know Godly type Love. All these tragedies provide opportunities for Love, but that does not mean we go around causing opportunities, since we are to be ceasing these opportunities (there are plenty of opportunities) to show/experience Love.

You do not have to believe the Adam and Eve story is true to get lots of good messages from it. Most people go through a time in which they ask: “How could a Loving God allow such a thing”, which means “why does God not start us all out in a Garden type situation without, needy people, limited resources, death, and questions about His existence?”

What we can do is thank Adam and Eve for showing us and them that what we might consider the ideal situation is a lousy situation for man to fulfill his earthly objective. Adam and Eve as our very best all human representatives did not fulfill the objective while sinless in the Garden and really could not. The situation after sinning outside the Garden did provide a way to fulfill the objective.

I and it seems other have to have opportunities at our doorstep to respond with Love, if I would just cease the opportunities at some distance there might be few opportunities (tragedies) needed for me, so if you want to blame someone for all these tragedies blame me for not ceasing more earlier.

Hell does nothing for the people going to hell, but that was their choice since they kept refusing to accept God’s help (forgiveness, Love, grace, mercy, charity) to the point they will never humbly accept. Hell does help some willing individuals to not put off their acceptance of God’s help.


FYI From Romans 8:28 through to the end of chapter 11 Paul is speaking about the elect. That is what you are missing with Romans, Chapters 9 through 11.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

1Reformedman

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
454
152
57
St. Louis
✟4,261.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I asked you a question about rescuers, but you did not answer?

I did not say “drowning” they can all be passed out on the floor in a slow burning house.

Does your understanding of God’s Love and power allow God to just as easily and safely rebirth everyone as just a few?

God is the epitome of Love and such great Love would do everything possible to help others.

God appears to be heavily involved in all humans to the point of knowing the hairs on their head.

God takes better care of us than birds.

God allowed His only son to be tortured, humiliated and murdered for totally undeserving me, something no one else would do, so what more could He do?

I read scripture and study what is happening yesterday and today, thus seeing how everything works to help those who are just willing to accept God’s help in fulfilling their earthly objective. I just do not see how God could do more.



This gets again into the huge topic of atonement.

This particular issue includes Christ’s teaching in Matt. 18 21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[h] was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

This is a tuff unexplainable parable for Calvinist teachers (never heard them explain it). It is the follow-up answer to the unstated follow-up question (How can I keep from being taken advantage of by my brother?).

Did the king (representing God) do his part perfectly: providing unconditional undeserving 100% forgiveness to the wicked servant?

The bigger question is: Did the wicked servant humbly accept the pure charity of the king as pure charity, because it does not say that and in fact his request was for more time to pay it back (which he would know was totally impossible)? Did he leave the king thinking he talked the master out of paying him back at this time?

If forgiveness like Love is a transaction and not just one-sided than the master forgave, but the fact the servant did not accept the forgiving as pure charity, forgiveness itself did not take place. The reason we know forgiveness did not take place is because the wicked servant did not leave with a huge Love and we know “…he who is forgiven much Loves much…” and this servant did not show any Love toward the king’s other servants. Also, at the end the servant still had the debt to pay in full, so it had not been forgiven.

Christ emphasis: “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

Did God forgive all those involved in torturing, humiliating and murdering Christ, since Christ asked Him to? I would say God, of course, did His part in forgiving like the king in the parable, but not everyone at the cross accepted God’s forgiveness as pure charity, so forgiveness did not take place for them.

God is wanting, willing and does forgive everyone, like the king in the parable, but not everyone is willing to humble accept His forgiveness as it was given (as pure charity) so forgiveness does not take place until we accept His forgiveness as charity.

In this parable there is nothing about someone paying the debt owed and obviously if the king forgave the debt 100% there was nothing to be paid (the king does not pay Himself)?

If God forgives your sins 100% and you accept that forgiveness, why is there something to be paid? Where in scripture does it use such logic?

Does Christ going to the cross help some to humbly accept God’s 100% forgiveness as pure undeserved charity?

There is a ransom payment being offered, but who is the undeserving kidnapper accepting or rejecting the payment?


You can actually take any Biblical command and say: “This is man’s objective and have Biblical support for that conclusion (the Bible says this is what we are to do!) I think you would agree: all these command are subordinate to the commands: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy.” The first issue with fulfilling that command is the fact: we (including Adam and Eve) do not start out with such an all consuming Godly type Love, so how do we obtain such a love?

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like God cannot make another Christ since Christ is not a created being. The big inability for us is to be created with instinctive (programmed) Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real likely alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus (Luke 7: 36-50) and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

We are not making some honorable choice to accept God’s forgiveness, since sin burdens us and we just want undeserved relief from our pain and burden.

In order to be forgiven of sin you must first sin, so sin is necessary, but not desired.

This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing mature adult individuals to see, receive, give, experience, accept and know Godly type Love. All these tragedies provide opportunities for Love, but that does not mean we go around causing opportunities, since we are to be ceasing these opportunities (there are plenty of opportunities) to show/experience Love.


I think, where you go wrong in your understanding of God is, that you seem to think he's obligated to save when he isn't so obligated to save a single person. If he saves just one or a million he's been merciful to that one or that million but he's not obligated to save everyone especially when not one person deserves his love and mercy. God chose who would be saved and he did that choosing before the foundation of the world began. In doing that choosing, according to the whole counsel of his will, he didn't look down into the future to see who would positively respond to the gospel because if that were true then God would choose according to a lost one's work. If he did so it would make God a respecter of persons and we know the bible says God isn't a respecter of persons.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,159
1,805
✟794,650.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Who you think God loves isnt the issue. Jesus prayed only for the elect when he was about to die. That should tell you a lot about who is gonna ever be saved.
Jesus prayed: "forgive them they know not what they do" so who did not know what they were doing?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,159
1,805
✟794,650.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Advocating for autonomy of the will doesn’t validate or prove one’s choices are genuine. It just shows one’s denial of Gods Sovereignty. Choices one makes stems from ones desires and nature. You are dead in sin. You cannot desire righteousness apart from regeneration simply because by nature you are a slave to sin and satan. If God changes the disposition of a person to desire Christ and His righteousness in repentance how is that any less genuine?
How did the prodigal son deny his father's sovereignty?
Jesus could use any words He wanted to but used the word "dead" to describe the prodigal son while living in the foreign land even after the father knew he was not physically dead, so by Christ's definition of "dead" you can still do stuff like come to your senses and repent of your ways (mentally turn to the father for charity).
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,159
1,805
✟794,650.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
FYI From Romans 8:28 through to the end of chapter 11 Paul is speaking about the elect. That is what you are missing with Romans, Chapters 9 through 11.
Paul is always addressing the Jewish and Gentile Christians in all of Romans nonbelievers would not be reading the letter? The problem being addressed in Romans is the Jews and Gentiles were not fellowshipping each other.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,159
1,805
✟794,650.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think, where you go wrong in your understanding of God is, that you seem to think he's obligated to save when he isn't so obligated to save a single person. If he saves just one or a million he's been merciful to that one or that million but he's not obligated to save everyone especially when not one person deserves his love and mercy. God chose who would be saved and he did that choosing before the foundation of the world began. In doing that choosing, according to the whole counsel of his will, he didn't look down into the future to see who would positively respond to the gospel because if that were true then God would choose according to a lost one's work. If he did so it would make God a respecter of persons and we know the bible says God isn't a respecter of persons.
If God says: He will save anyone (whosoever) mentally turns to Him, willing to humble accept God's pure charity as charity, then He has obligated Himself to save them.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,159
1,805
✟794,650.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Read his account of Matthew 20 of the Owner who hires workers to his field, agreeing to a sum for the day's work, then hires more at midday, to whom he decides to pay the same sum (not the same rate), then with only one hour of work left does the same with others. Why should the first hired, who worked all day, complain about his generosity to the others? Did they not agree to the terms?

So it is with the lost. They have agreed to the terms, as do we all while we rebel. But he has mercy with some.

Or take a harder look: He can do whatever he wants with his creatures. Without him, they do not own the dignity of life that we desire. He need not respect us as Free Willed creatures, worthy of his notice. AND YES, he is that much greater in every way than we are.

But be comforted. He will not inflict punishment upon anyone more than they deserve. His justice is precise, though thorough.
This is one of my favorite parables, really like to teach it to Junior High kids in a skit they can all be a part of, but adults can sure get lot from it.
You might want to read it again, because even those who "complained" received their reward (pay). What you are trying to teach with this parable is "the lost" who worked all day did not get their reward because they complained?
This is not teaching us how to be good managers, but this most likely is directed at the Jews who have been following God's commands all their life and will now be saved by becoming Christians, yet do not like the fact Gentiles who have not been following God's commands all their life can now become Christians and receive the exact same reward.
There is a lot more to this parable:

There are some great lessons to learn here, from this very unique employer (God).

The main thing I emphasize is what all the workers did equally (like: they all went looking for work) and what they did not do (like: quit before the end of the day).

The Land owner was not “rewarding” them for the “work” they did, but more for what they wanted.

This is not teaching how to be good managers, but how God and the Kingdom are.

Are there different rewards in heaven?

Can you give up your salvations after becoming a servant?

Do you have to seek and why do you seek?

Do you have to hear?

Can you say yes and not go?

Do you have to work?

How much work do you have to do?

Who and why resent other workers?

What happens to those people, who are very accepting, yet do not want to work?

Do you first need to want to work in the kingdom before being offer to work?

This is not accepting an invitation brought to you for a free banquet, but an offer to work, so how do you resolve the differences in these parables? Are these different people?

Is it harder to invite people to God’s banquet or invite people to God’s work? (None refused the work.)

Do we need to be sure the nonbeliever has counted the cost before leading them to the vineyard?

If a church is made up of and is only inviting banquet seekers, will any grapes get harvested?

The prodigal son was not offered a job, by His father going out and seeking him, but had to go to his father asking for work, so how does that relate to this parable?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,159
1,805
✟794,650.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
A note: He is merciful to all in several ways, such as the fact that he limits how much trouble we would get into if our "free will" was permitted to run amok.
The problem is with people accepting God's mercy (charity, grace, Love, forgiveness) of their won free will.
 
Upvote 0