God withholds rain from unrighteous in OT but no says Jesus - what it means for loving your enemy

[mcarans]

"The Lord will change the rain of your (the unrighteous) land into powder." (Deuteronomy 28:24)

"for he...sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous." (Matthew 5:45)

What does this overturning of an Old Testament teaching mean? What does it mean for the preceding verses in Matthew 5 about loving enemies?

My thoughts about it are here:
God withholds rain from the unrighteous in OT but not so says Jesus - what it means for loving your enemy : cruciformity

 

[Dave L]

"The Lord will change the rain of your (the unrighteous) land into powder." (Deuteronomy 28:24)

"for he...sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous." (Matthew 5:45)

What does this overturning of an Old Testament teaching mean? What does it mean for the preceding verses in Matthew 5 about loving enemies?

My thoughts about it are here:
God withholds rain from the unrighteous in OT but not so says Jesus - what it means for loving your enemy : cruciformity

This means when it does rain, both the wicked and righteous share it.

 

[mcarans]

This means when it does rain, both the wicked and righteous share it.

Yes true. What do you think of the overturning of the Old Testament teaching "The Lord will change the rain of your (the unrighteous) land into powder."? In the link I present the case that this overturning of what happens to the unrighteous means that the "hate your enemy" quote earlier in the same passage is in fact an Old Testament teaching that is also overturned as well (even if not a specific verse with that wording) not oral teachings or general views of the time.

 

[Dave L]

Yes true. What do you think of the overturning of the Old Testament teaching "The Lord will change the rain of your (the unrighteous) land into powder."? In the link I present the case that this overturning means that the "hate your enemy" quote earlier is in fact overturning Old Testament teaching as well (even if not a specific verse with that wording) not oral teachings or general views of the time.

God aimed the law at wicked unbelievers. Forcing them to act good on threat of death. Abraham, Abel, Job and others needed no such coercion. God removed the unbelievers and the law from Israel which then went global with the addition of believing gentiles. With the law abolished, the scope of the promise made to Abraham is now fulfilled throughout the whole world. But his four judgements remain regionally. War, famine, disease, and pestilence aimed at the wicked.

 

[Aussie Pete]

"The Lord will change the rain of your (the unrighteous) land into powder." (Deuteronomy 28:24)

"for he...sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous." (Matthew 5:45)

What does this overturning of an Old Testament teaching mean? What does it mean for the preceding verses in Matthew 5 about loving enemies?

My thoughts about it are here:
God withholds rain from the unrighteous in OT but not so says Jesus - what it means for loving your enemy : cruciformity

God still speaks (or perhaps shouts) through the weather. "The rebellious dwell in a parched land." I can vouch for that here in Australia. It's been extremely dry since the nation voted to legalise same sex marriage. I'm assured that it is totally unrelated. I'm not so sure.

 

[Ken Rank]

"The Lord will change the rain of your (the unrighteous) land into powder." (Deuteronomy 28:24)

"for he...sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous." (Matthew 5:45)

What does this overturning of an Old Testament teaching mean? What does it mean for the preceding verses in Matthew 5 about loving enemies?

My thoughts about it are here:
God withholds rain from the unrighteous in OT but not so says Jesus - what it means for loving your enemy : cruciformity

Jesus does not change the law because changing the law is a sin. He did not sin. You might read Zech 14:16-19, an event that hasn't happened yet. God will withhold rain, it is a literal event, at least in Zechariah.

 

[mcarans]

God still speaks (or perhaps shouts) through the weather. "The rebellious dwell in a parched land." I can vouch for that here in Australia. It's been extremely dry since the nation voted to legalise same sex marriage. I'm assured that it is totally unrelated. I'm not so sure.

Denmark legalised same sex marriage in the 1960s and it rains heavily here - nor has the country fallen apart. Don't worry. Also I don't remember Jesus encouraging the demonisation or scapegoating of people.

 

[mcarans]

Jesus does not change the law because changing the law is a sin. He did not sin. You might read Zech 14:16-19, an event that hasn't happened yet. God will withhold rain, it is a literal event, at least in Zechariah.

So you're saying Jesus is wrong - that He will not send rain on the unrighteous?

 

[Ken Rank]

So you're saying Jesus is wrong - that He will not send rain on the unrighteous?

I didn't say that... I am saying if the bible says God will withhold rain then he will withhold rain and God isn't going to alter that because He spoke it through the mouth of a prophet. To go back on it opens up the possibility that nothing He says matters. Then, is the work of Jesus enough? Maybe not, if God changes His mind!

 

[Ken Rank]

Denmark legalised same sex marriage in the 1960s and it rains heavily here - nor has the country fallen apart. Don't worry. Also I don't remember Jesus encouraging the demonisation or scapegoating of people.

Judgement hasn't been passed yet. It will... sin is sin and God does not change. If He said, "when a man lies with a man as he would a woman it is an abomination" then it is STILL an abomination because God does not change. God hasn't, secular cultures, the WORLD is changing but not God. Judgement will come, in His time. Don't make light of that.

 

[bling]

This has to do with the differences in the kingdom of the Old Testament and the New Testament times.

In the Old Testament all nations could look upon faithful Israel and say: “Truly, they are blessed”, but under the Christian Dispensation nonbelievers should look upon Christians and say: “Truly, they are a strange and unusual group of people”.

The huge difference is in the fact the “Blessed Kingdom” of the OT was the physical nation of Israel with borders. Nations could look upon an actual nation, so if they were following God, other nations would see them blessed, but if they were not following God other nations would see them cursed. Under the Christian Dispensation everything is Spiritual, so not matter what situation the individual Christian finds Himself/herself in they are happy and blessed if the Spirit is with them and unhappy and hurting inwardly if the Spirit is not with them (the physical really does not matter.

 

[xxkingskidlmxx]

This has to do with the differences in the kingdom of the Old Testament and the New Testament times.

In the Old Testament all nations could look upon faithful Israel and say: “Truly, they are blessed”, but under the Christian Dispensation nonbelievers should look upon Christians and say: “Truly, they are a strange and unusual group of people”.

The huge difference is in the fact the “Blessed Kingdom” of the OT was the physical nation of Israel with borders. Nations could look upon an actual nation, so if they were following God, other nations would see them blessed, but if they were not following God other nations would see them cursed. Under the Christian Dispensation everything is Spiritual, so not matter what situation the individual Christian finds Himself/herself in they are happy and blessed if the Spirit is with them and unhappy and hurting inwardly if the Spirit is not with them (the physical really does not matter.

tend to disagree with the surmise that Christians are invisible to detection. the problem of the old testament were that the borders were not honoured. the new testament has boundaries of what to s too. when Christians are within the umbrella of God’s protection, which are His guidelines or fenceposts then they will find their boundaries places of comfort and easily detected by non;christians.

 

[Ken Rank]

In the Old Testament all nations could look upon faithful Israel and say: “Truly, they are blessed”, but under the Christian Dispensation nonbelievers should look upon Christians and say: “Truly, they are a strange and unusual group of people”.

The wording used in 1 Peter 2:9 is the same as Exodus 19:5-6. God does not change...

 

[Ken Rank]

God aimed the law at wicked unbelievers. Forcing them to act good on threat of death. Abraham, Abel, Job and others needed no such coercion.

Genesis 26:5 seems to contradict your claim.

 

[mcarans]

Judgement hasn't been passed yet. It will... sin is sin and God does not change. If He said, "when a man lies with a man as he would a woman it is an abomination" then it is STILL an abomination because God does not change. God hasn't, secular cultures, the WORLD is changing but not God. Judgement will come, in His time. Don't make light of that.

Judgement will come but God's justice is merciful not wrathful, which is fortunate because over and over again the Prophets and Jesus warn about failing to help the poor and marginalised yet these warnings continue to go largely unheeded as people look to self interest in contravention of Christ's commands to love neighbour and enemy.

 

[Dave L]

Genesis 26:5 seems to contradict your claim.

“Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.” Genesis 26:5 (KJV 1900)


“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

 

[Ken Rank]

Judgement will come but God's justice is merciful not wrathful

You must have a different bible than I do. God doesn't change... He destroyed the Earth by water in Noach's day leaving one family. If that isn't wrath, what is? He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah by fire and one family was left, if that isn't wrath, what is? And in the end, Yeshua promised, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth but again... you must have a different version of the bible because yours, apparently, doesn't actually say any of this.

 

[1213]

"The Lord will change the rain of your (the unrighteous) land into powder." (Deuteronomy 28:24)

"for he...sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous." (Matthew 5:45)

What does this overturning of an Old Testament teaching mean? What does it mean for the preceding verses in Matthew 5 about loving enemies?

My thoughts about it are here:
God withholds rain from the unrighteous in OT but not so says Jesus - what it means for loving your enemy : cruciformity

Interesting translation. King James for example says it this way:

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Matthew 5:45

I am not sure if it is correct to use word righteous or unrighteous in this case. However, I think there is no contradiction. God sends rain for righteous and unrighteous. But unrighteous will not have it eternally.

I think Matthew 5:45 means God is good/just/fair for all people, even if people are not good. But being good doesn’t always mean that only "nice" things are given. Similarly, as good parent doesn’t obey his child in everything. Good parent can be strict and not always do what child wants, because children don’t always want good things. And for example, if person does crime and deserves punishment, person can be good and sent criminal to jail. Same way, even if God is good to all, it doesn’t mean He accepts anything and don’t care if people are evil and do constantly bad things.

 

[mcarans]

You must have a different bible than I do. God doesn't change... He destroyed the Earth by water in Noach's day leaving one family. If that isn't wrath, what is? He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah by fire and one family was left, if that isn't wrath, what is? And in the end, Yeshua promised, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth but again... you must have a different version of the bible because yours, apparently, doesn't actually say any of this.

Do you think then that this judgement will come upon the the wealthy nations of the world and their inhabitants for failing to follow the oft repeated calls of the Prophets and Jesus to look after the poor and marginalised at home and abroad?

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Revelation 11:6

They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.

Nope. Nothing has been overturned.