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God SENT Jesus.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Sep 26, 2001.

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  1. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    Friends,

    John 1:14 says "And the WORD became flesh." Because of this, most people believe that God became flesh or man in the person of Jesus.

    The truth is, God DID NOT become flesh or man. God DID NOT become Jesus. It was God's EXPRESSED idea about the birth of a savior (Gen. 3:15; Isaiah 7:14; Isaiah 9:6)that became flesh or man.

    God SENT Jesus, a MAN (John 8:40) just as God SENT a MAN whose name was John (John 1:6).

    Like John, Jesus also CAME from God. Jesus says: "If GOD were your FATHER, you would love me, for I proceeded forth and CAME from GOD; nor have I come of myself, but He SENT me" (John 8:42).

    Jesus emphasized the value of knowing that the FATHER (who is the only true God) SENT him when he said: " And eternal means to know YOU, the only true GOD, and to know Jesus Christ whom YOU sent" (John 17:3 T


    Jesus further said: "He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who SENT me" (John 14:24).

    One who is SENT is a messenger. Just as John was a messenger who came from God (John 1:6), Jesus was also a messenger who came from God. They are both MAN, with flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).

    The Holy Spirit is also SENT by God and there are seven of them that God sends into all the earth (Rev. 5:6). God the Father is Himself Spirit and He is Holy. Thus, God the Father Himself is Holy Spirit. And blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (God the Father) is unforgivable.

    Thus, Jesus is NOT the same God who said "I AM" in the Old Testament. Jesus is NOT the same God the Father who SENT him. Jesus is NOT the same God the Father who SENT him and said "I am Alpha and Omega" in the Old Testament.

    Jesus is the woman's seed promised by God to the serpent (Gen. 3:15), Abraham's seed (Gen. 17:7; Gal. 3:16), prophet promised to Moses (Deut. 18:1:cool: and savior prophesied by Isaiah (Is. 9:6; Is. 7:14).

    And as apostle Paul testified: "But when the fullness of time came, God SENT His son, born of a woman, born under the law" (Gal. 4:4). This was when the WORD became flesh or man - the fulfillment of God's WORDS.
     
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  2. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    Ed, those verses are taking out of context, you are adding to John 1:1 it doesn't say God expressed thought was made flesh, it says the Logos was. Then in verses 15 and 30 John clearly links it to say that Jesus is the logos.

    Yes, Jesus send God but that doesn't mean he isn't God..:lol: Check Phil 2:5-8 it says there that Jesus came of his own free will taking the nature of a servent..;)

    Jesus is the same I AM in the OT, or he wouldn't have claimed to be :)

    You're all wet here ed, Jesus is God, the people of the NT understood that, why can't you? Check your church history, they were worshiping him as God from the start.
     
  3. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    LouisBooth,

    John 1:15: John bore witness of him saying; "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me."

    Note that Jesus was preferred before John. He DID NOT exist before John.

    John 1:30: "This is he of whom I said, 'After me comes a MAN who is preferred before me, for he was before me."

    Again, note that Jesus was preferred before John. He DID NOT exist before John.

    John and Jesus are both MAN. Their coming from God or being SENT by God was both prophesied by the prophet Isaiah.

    But Jesus was spoke of first by God in the garden of Eden (Gen. 3:15), to Abraham (Gen. 17:7), to Moses (Deut. 18:1:cool: then to the prophet Isaiah (Isaiah 7:14).

    God spoke of John only through the prophet Isaiah as the MAN who will prepare the way for Jesus.

    Hence, John knew from the Holy Scriptures (a.k.a. the Old Testament) that Jesus was the one God was referring to in His statements to the serpent, to Abraham, to Moses and to the prophet Isaiah.

    Jesus said God the Father SENT him. There is nothing in Phil. 2:5-8 to show that Jesus contradicted what he said in the verses I quoted - that God the Father SENT him.

    Jesus DID NOT claim he is the "I AM" in the OT. YOU re the one saying it. Your presumption is wrong because it would make it look like God SENT himself and named Himself Jesus. This is heresy.

    Your statement that the church worshipped Jesus as God from the start is false. Look at 1 Cor. 8:6 where Paul was saying that for them (members of the church), there is only one God and that is the Father.

    You must be referring to the church composed of disciples who turned away from the faith and gave heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demon (1 Timothy 4:1-3).

    Ed
     
  4. savinggrc

    savinggrc Guest

    +0
    God put on a body of flesh in order that men, with eyes but not seeing, might believe.

    He'd already given His words, but men, with ears did not hear nor did they believe.

    Praise God, that in His infinite mercy and wisdom, made Himself of no reputation and became a man for us! Man alive, thanks Ed for bringing this up! Ain't God good?
     
  5. AngelAmidala

    AngelAmidala Legend

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    Okay, for some reason I can't copy text like I used to. Must be the version of IE on my laptop. Anyway, Ed, you quoted John 1:15 and then said something that Jesus was preferred before John but did not exist before him.

    First, I can't remember what version of the Bible you like to quote scripture from. Could you just remind me again? :) Thanks!

    Second, your translation said: "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me.'" How can John say "For he was before me" if he didn't exist before him (John)? Maybe I'm making it too literal but to me the quote says that Jesus is preferred before John (He who comes after me is preferred before me) because Jesus was before John (for he was before me).

    *shrugs* Just my thinking.
     
  6. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    AngelAmidala,

    I can't copy text either. Must be the way the site was upgraded.

    The Bible says John was a MAN (John 1:6). And John says that Jesus is a MAN, who was BEFORE him (John 1:30).

    When John said Jesus was BEFORE him or existed before him (as other versions render it), John did not mean that Jesus "existed as a being" or as a MAN before him because he knew that he is five months older than his cousin. John could not have been thinking that there were two Gods and one of them became Jesus either. Neither could have John been thinking that it was God Himself who became Jesus.

    There is nothing in the Old Testament (the ONLY Bible at that time) that shows or even indicates that God is in three persons. The Old Testament recognizes the Father as the only Lord God (Is. 44:8; Is. 46:9; Ps. 100:3; Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8; Mal. 2:10).

    The Old Testament records God as saying that He is NOT a MAN and what He says He does or makes good (Num. 23:19).

    No. John was aware of the prophecies regarding him and Jesus. He knew the Scriptures by heart and John understood that Jesus was " foreordained before the foundations of the world" as apostle Peter explained in 1 Peter 1:20.

    John knew that Jesus was promised to the serpent in Eden (Gen. 3:15) long BEFORE God spoke of him in Isaiah's prophecy as the voice in the wilderness (Matt. 3:3; Is. 40:3).

    Therefore, John 1:15 and John 1:30 do not prove the pre-existence of Jesus as God.

    Ed
     
  7. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Savinggrc,

    You wrote:


    The reason we have about 20,000 Protestant denominations in America alone is because people like you are quick to say things without backing them up with scriptures.

    Show us where in the Bible does it say precisely that God put on a body of flesh.

    And there are millions of gullible people like you who believe what their itching ears want to hear. They are those who have eyes that cannot perceive andears that cannot hear.

    Read John 1:14 again and note that it was the WORD of God that became flesh or Jesus - NOT God who SPOKE the WORD.
    Note the verses I quoted for the thread. They clearly tell us that GOD the Father SENT Jesus His SON.

    According to Jesus himself, it was GOD the FATHER who SENT him.

    If Jesus was God who became man, are you telling us that there were two separate Gods (God the Father and God the Son) in the beginning?

    If God the Father was the only one God in the beginning and you say that Jesus was God who became man, are you telling us that the Father was composed of Himself and the son at the same time?

    Your line of thinking looks absurd to me. Don't you think it's time to have a change of heart?

    Ed


     
  8. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Did God send Jesus, or did the Father, as God, send Jesus?
     
  9. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    ZoneChaos,

    You wrote:


    In John 17:3, Jesus said to the FATHER "...that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God, AND Jesus Christ whom YOU have SENT."

    From Jesus' statement, we can see that it was the FATHER who is the ONLY true God who SENT Jesus Christ.

    In John 8:42, Jesus said he proceeded forth and came from God. Thus, yes, God SENT Jesus. And this God who SENT Jesus is the FATHER.

    The Father is NOTHING else but God, the ONLY true God. Thus, the statement "did the Father, as God send Jesus" is deceptive.

    Ed
     
  10. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    How is it deceptive? If the Father is ontihng esle than God, then the Father did send His Son. If the Father is the Only True God, then the Father did send His Son, thus, the Father, as God, sent His son. Now, It is true that the Father can be nothing else, but it was infact the Father that sent His Son. The Trinity Doctrine doe snot deny this, nor does Christianity.
     
  11. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    ZoneChaos,

    The statement, "the Father, as God" is deceptive because it could give the false impression that the statement, "the Father, as Man" could also be true.

    The Trinitrians believe that "God became a man" in the person of Jesus, the SON. I can't see how you can say, trinitarians also believe that "the Father, who is the only true God," sent Jesus Christ, His SON and Jesus Christ is himself God.

    Do trinitarians believe that "the Father, as GOD" SENT "himself, as MAN" and BECAME Jesus Christ as 100% MAN and 100% GOD? I'm as confused as you are my friend. Please clarify your statement.

    Ed
     
  12. Pastor Carl

    Pastor Carl Guest

    +0
    Ed:

    Once again, explain to us Isaiah 9:6 " For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. "

    Again one of the Hebrew words for God is "Elohim". This is plural. Now either this refers to the Trinity or to the fact that there are numerous gods.

    If, as you say, the Word refers to the Word of God becoming flesh then,

    (1) How does the Word of God become flesh? Literal flesh?

    (2) How is the Word of God therefore God? Is His spoken Word literally God?

    Jesus also refered to Himself as pre-existant. "Before Abraham was, I AM." The use of this reference in John was not lost on the Pharisees and scribes. That's why they wanted so bad to kill Him.
     
  13. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

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    >>Once again, explain to us Isaiah 9:6 " For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. "

    I find it rather amusing that you use the book of Isaiah where it suits you, yet ignore him comparing animal sacrifice to killing humans. You seem to pick and choose yourself from among his beliefs, which ones to agree with, and which ones to ignore.

    In the sense the some Christians believe Jesus to "be" the Father, what Isaiah said, has come true. This does not mean that he actually *WAS* the father however.

    Jesus tells us the full relationship between himself and the father. Now whom shall we listen to, a single sentence from Isaiah, which can be interpreted several ways, or the direct passages of Jesus himself?

    >>Again one of the Hebrew words for God is "Elohim". This is plural. Now either this refers to the Trinity or to the fact that there are numerous gods.

    Elohim refered to "created" beings who *CAME FROM* God. They would be somewhat analogous to "archangels". The term didn't refer to multiple gods.

    >>If, as you say, the Word refers to the Word of God becoming flesh then,

    (1) How does the Word of God become flesh? Literal flesh?

    The will of God, from the presense of the Holy Spirit, enters the consciousness of a human being. By the human being subjugating his/her own will to the will of God, the *WORD* is made manifest through flesh.

    (2) How is the Word of God therefore God? Is His spoken Word literally God?

    The WORD as I perceive it, is not a "spoken" anything. It's the presense of God, the breath of God, the energy and will of God. This is like asking how can the sun and sunshine both be the same thing. In essence they are not, but one is the direct result of the other. Once "causes" the other. God's "consciousness" is made "real" by it's expression through the "Word".

    >>Jesus also refered to Himself as pre-existant. "Before Abraham was, I AM." The use of this reference in John was not lost on the Pharisees and scribes. That's why they wanted so bad to kill Him.

    Yet the church banned the idea of preexistence as it relates to other souls. This is in direct conflict with the teachings of Jesus himself in the Gospel of Thomas where he several times says that we *ALL* come from and return to God.
     
  14. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    You wrote:


    The Hebrew version of Is. 9:6 of the Jewish Publications Society of America reads: "Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom." The explanation in the footnote to this verse in the Jewish Publications Society of Ame states: "That is, won derful in Counsel is God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace."

    Hence, Smith-Goodspeed Translation renders this verse thus: "For a child is born to us, a son is GIVEN to us. And the government will be upon his shoulder; And his name will b e called 'Wonderful counsellor is God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace."

    If Christ were the Mighty God referred to in this verse, so many questrions would be left unanswered: Is God a CHILD? Was God ever BORN? Was God ever GIVEN? If the GIVER were also God, wouldn't that make TWO Gods?

    Other verses would also be contradicted. Numbers 23:19 says: "God is not a man... nor a son of man." Malachi 2:10 states: "Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us?" John 20:17 records the pronouncements of our Lord Jesus Christ thus: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God."

    You wrote:


    "Elohim" refers to NEITHER Pastor Carl. "Elohim" is a "plural of majesty." What it means is that the plural form of a word is used to signify respect of someone who is esteemed highly or of an elder or parent. For example, in the Filipino language, the singular form of "YOU" is used to address equals or younger persons while the plural form is used to address soeone who is highly esteemed or someone who is older as a sign of respect. The Jews were no different in the use of the plural form to signify respect.

    You wrote:


    "The WORD became flesh" is John's figurative description of the fulfillment of God's prophecy regarding the birth of a son whose name will be "Immanuel" recorded in Isaiah 7:14.

    "The WORD was God" is John's figurative description of
    the certainty of the fulfillment of God's WORD (expressed idea, plan or promise) because according to Num. 23:19: "hath he said, and he shall not do it? or hath he SPOKEN and shall not make it good?" And as apostle Luke wrote in Luke 1:37: "with God, nothing will be impossible."

    You wrote:


    The Pharisees and scribes did not want to kill Jesus because he said "I AM." They understood the meaning of this expression because that's the way they talked during these times. They knew Jesus was not saying he was God when he said this.

    They wanted to kill him because by saying that God is his father, the Pharisees and scribes THOUGHT he was making himself equal to God. Jesus made this clear in John 10:36.

    Ed
     
  15. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    No, Trinitarians do not beleive that the Father sent Himself as a man. The Trinitarians believe that the Father sent His Son as man. They also beleive that the Father is God, and the Son is God.

    It was not God (the Godhead) that did the sedning it was God (the Father) that did the sending of God (the Son).

    God (The God Head) did send Himself, but it was the Father who sent the Son.
     
  16. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    ZoneChaos,



    God the Father SENT God the Son. Aren't you saying there really are two separate and distinct Gods?



    So now you are saying that God (Godhead) is separate and distinct from God (the Father) and God (the Son) and God (the Holy Spirit).



    God (the Godhead) sent himself to where and as what?
    Please clarify your statement.

    Ed
     
  17. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    No.. I am not saying that. I am saying that the One God is three sperate entities who are the One God.



    Not seperate...



    You are a sly one.. The GodHead did not send the Godhead anywhere. The Father, part of the Godhead, sent the Son, part of the GodHead to earth as a man. Since both are God.. then God (Godhead) idi send God (Godhead), but the entire Trinity did not send the Trinty, rather, the Father sent the Son.
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "He DID NOT exist before John."

    :lol: check the greek ed :)

    "Again, note that Jesus was preferred before John. He DID NOT exist before John."

    How about you check the greek ed, besides those verses show John was Saying Jesus is the Logos and the Logos is God..hence, Jesus is God.

    "Your statement that the church worshipped Jesus as God from the start is false"

    Ed, read some church history before you make a statement like that bro, in that verse He goes on to say Jesus is Lord, with a capital L..now read in the front of your bible what that means ;)

    "Jesus DID NOT claim he is the "I AM" in the OT. YOU re the one saying it. Your presumption is wrong because it would make it look like God SENT himself and named Himself Jesus. This is heresy."

    :lol: exactly what they said to Jesus when he said it. He said it ed, check your bible for more details. Same in the greek ed, said it before, check the greek.
     
  19. AMMON

    AMMON LATTER-DAY SAINT

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    Ummm... wow. :eek: Seven Holy Ghosts? :scratch:
     
  20. josyau

    josyau Member

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    before (Greek: protos: foremost (in time, place, order or importance):
     
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