God`s Prophetic Days.

[Timtofly]

No, that's not what I'm saying. I've explained my understanding of what happens on the day Christ returns many times. If you don't know what I believe by now, then you're just not paying attention.

Because "sheep" is obviously a figurative term and Paul wasn't speaking figuratively in 1 Thess 4:14-17. No one is saved because of good works (Eph 2:8-10). Including the sheep. Yet, they are obviously saved as only saved people receive eternal life. Think about it. You need to stop drawing conclusions about passages like Matthew 25:31-46 that contradict scripture and instead find a way to interpret Matthew 25:31-46 in such a way that doesn't contradict other scripture.

I have interpreted Matthew 25 with other Scripture. These sheep and goats are not the Church. I do not force the church into these verses. Saying the sheep are the church is not comparing verses. Calling them the church is forcing an interpretation where it does not belong. These verses are post the Second Coming. Post setting up a throne.

 

[Timtofly]

I assume you mean the new earth since this earth as we know it will be burned up (2 Peter 3:10-13).

What does John 3:16 say is required to obtain eternal life? Since the sheep obtain eternal life, it must be that they did what is required according to John 3:16. There is no other way to receive eternal life except through faith. If you have faith in Christ you will do the kind of things described in Matthew 25:31-46 as it relates to what Jesus says the sheep do for Him. People are identified by their fruit/works (Matt 7:16-20). Jesus said that. Our fruit/works reflect our faith, but it is not our works that is required for salvation, it's faith (Eph 2:8-10).

If works were required for salvation, then that would mean the thief on the cross wasn't saved. But, he was. But, Jesus knew he had the kind of faith that would have resulted in good works if he had the chance and that is why he was saved. This is a concept that you clearly do not understand.

These sheep had no clue they were righteous nor were doing works because of the fruit of the Spirit. You are adding a lot of assumptions into these verses about these people still on earth after a throne was set up, after the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

Does this mean you think the goats are then raised from the dead after the thousand years in order to stand in front of God at the great white throne judgment, meaning they are judged and sentenced yet again, thus receive the exact same sentence they already received at the sheep and goats judgment a thousand years earlier?

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Yes even after 1000 years God will still have them on record for their works. They will still be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Even those rebellious during the 1000 years are going to end up in Death, and cast into the Lake of Fire. Those since Noah's Flood are still going to be there. They were judged by the Flood itself. They all are cast into the Lake of Fire at the same time. The only two beings to be cast in early are the FP and the beast.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

If you conclude the goats go directly into the Lake of Fire, that may be. John does not say when the Lake of Fire appears.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The goats will be placed in Death

What did you mean by this?

, and after the 1,000 years, cast into the Lake of Fire.

I agree that the goats will be cast into the lake of fire after the thousand years. But that contradicts your premil beliefs since they are cast into the fire at Christ's second coming with His angels. Since they will be cast into the lake of fire when Christ returns and they will be cast into the lake of fire after the thousand years, as you even say yourself, then that means Christ's return is after the thousand years. Think about it. It's not as if they'll be cast into the lake of fire twice.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left....41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[DavidPT]

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

If you conclude the goats go directly into the Lake of Fire, that may be. John does not say when the Lake of Fire appears.

Of course he says when it appears. Revelation 19 involves the 2nd coming, and clearly verse 20 has the LOF in view at the time. If the thousand years follow the 2nd coming, that places the initial appearing of the LOF prior to the beginning of the thousand years, or maybe at the very beginning of it.

If the thousand years precede the 2nd coming, as Amils tend to conclude, that places the initial appearing of the LOF after the thousand years, and after satan's little season. Unless you're the first Premil that doesn't think so, since I can't think of any others that don't think so, all Premils agree, along with Amils, that the LOF is already in view as of the 2nd coming.

The following is an interesting passage, IMO.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

IMO, verse 24 is meaning after the 2nd coming during the thousand years and that this is likely meaning the LOF. This appears to be taking place during the time of the new heavens and new earth, otherwise, what are we to make of verse 22 and the mentioning of the new heavens and the new earth in that verse?

To me it seems unreasonable that verse 24 is meaning after the time of the great white throne judgment. But it could be meaning after the time of the sheep and goats judgment though, the fact that judgment is not the great white throne judgment though I am aware, many, mainly Amils, and maybe even some Premils, have a dispute with that conclusion.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Of course he says when it appears. Revelation 19 involves the 2nd coming, and clearly verse 20 has the LOF in view at the time. If the thousand years follow the 2nd coming, that places the initial appearing of the LOF prior to the beginning of the thousand years, or maybe at the very beginning of it.

If the thousand years precede the 2nd coming, as Amils tend to conclude, that places the initial appearing of the LOF after the thousand years, and after satan's little season. Unless you're the first Premil that doesn't think so, since I can't think of any others that don't think so, all Premils agree, along with Amils, that the LOF is already in view as of the 2nd coming.

The following is an interesting passage, IMO.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

IMO, verse 24 is meaning after the 2nd coming during the thousand years and that this is likely meaning the LOF. This appears to be taking place during the time of the new heavens and new earth, otherwise, what are we to make of verse 22 and the mentioning of the new heavens and the new earth in that verse?

To me it seems unreasonable that verse 24 is meaning after the time of the great white throne judgment.

Unreasonable? I find it unreasonable to NOT conclude that it's meaning after the GWT judgment because the context of Isaiah 66:22-24 is regarding the new heavens and new earth, which you even acknowledged yourself is what the passage is about. It's very clear that the new heavens and new earth are ushered in after the GWT judgment (when else than at that time could it be said that there's "no more death"?), so how can Isaiah 66:24 possibly be talking about something before the GWT judgment?

 

[DavidPT]

Unreasonable? I find it unreasonable to NOT conclude that it's meaning after the GWT judgment because the context of Isaiah 66:22-24 is regarding the new heavens and new earth, which you even acknowledged yourself is what the passage is about. It's very clear that the new heavens and new earth are ushered in after the GWT judgment (when else than at that time could it be said that there's "no more death"?), so how can Isaiah 66:24 possibly be talking about something before the GWT judgment?

I think I also mentioned in the past that I tend to see the thousand years being the first thousand years of the everlasting new heavens and new earth.

It seems to me that since you find that problematic, why aren't you finding it problematic that Isaiah 66:24, if meaning during the NHNE that you envision, would be meaning when the following is supposed to be true at the time?

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Now compare to Isaiah 66:24.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Does this sound like the former things are passed away, in their view, meaning the ones that shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against the LORD?

Here's yet another angle to look at it from.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Does this sound like the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind, in their view, meaning the ones that shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against the LORD?

Maybe the way to make sense of some of this, even though the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming, they are not instantaneous but involve a process, which involves a thousand years, a little season, then a great white throne judgment. Then after all of those things, the following is true from that time forth--the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

 

[Marilyn C]

The bride is described like that in Revelation 19:8, too. Why would you disregard that and only use Rev 15:6 to aid your understanding of who they are? Why can't it refer to both His bride and His angels? It sure looks like doctrinal bias is dictating your understanding of Revelation 19:14.

Why? Because Jesus ONLY says HIS ANGELS.

`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory. And He will send His angels..` (Matt.24: 30 & 31)

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)

 

[jeffweedaman]

I think I also mentioned in the past that I tend to see the thousand years being the first thousand years of the everlasting new heavens and new earth.

That doesn't sound convincing though. How can one define an everlasting period with the first thousand years that still contain death???.
God is not about to allow death to have any place on the restored earth. How could it be seen as a restored NHNE , the restoration of all things when death is still a factor???

We inherit ,at the Lords second coming, what God prepared at the foundation of the world ....when there was no death.

 

[DavidPT]

That doesn't sound convincing though. How can one define an everlasting period with the first thousand years that still contain death???.
God is not about to allow death to have any place on the restored earth. How could it be seen as a restored NHNE , the restoration of all things when death is still a factor???

We inherit ,at the Lords second coming, what God prepared at the foundation of the world ....when there was no death.

What about what I raised in regards to Isaiah 65:17---and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind--in light of what Isaiah 66:24 indicates----And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me?

What exactly does this mean to some of you, in general---and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind? Do you all take that to mean literally what it says? It would be odd if you didn't, the fact I'm pretty certain you all take the part concerning no more death literally, thus it means exactly what it says.

If both of these things are true at the same time, these things appear to be contradictory----and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind----And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me.

If both of these things are not true at the same time, thus the former is fulfilled first, then the latter at a later time, these things no longer appear to be contradictory----And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me---and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind

If both involve the NHNE, how should we understand these things to where there is no appearance of any contradictions? Maybe like I have proposed? Isaiah 66:24 is meaning early on in the NHNE, and that Isaiah 65:17 is meaning a little later on in the NHNE. IOW, Isaiah 66:24 is meaning during the thousand years, and Isaiah 65:17 is meaning after the great white throne judgment.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I think I also mentioned in the past that I tend to see the thousand years being the first thousand years of the everlasting new heavens and new earth.

That is simply impossible. There will be no more death when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in (Rev 21:1-4). I don't recall if you think anyone dies during the thousand years, but we all know there is certainly a lot of death during Satan's little season after that.

It seems to me that since you find that problematic, why aren't you finding it problematic that Isaiah 66:24, if meaning during the NHNE that you envision, would be meaning when the following is supposed to be true at the time?

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Now compare to Isaiah 66:24.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Does this sound like the former things are passed away, in their view, meaning the ones that shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against the LORD?

I believe that verse is figurative language, but even if it was meant to be taken literally, it's not describing anyone dying on the new earth. It's only describing looking upon people who are already dead. That passage does not pose a problem for Amil at all.

Here's yet another angle to look at it from.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Does this sound like the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind, in their view, meaning the ones that shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against the LORD?

You have to be careful about taking some Old Testament prophecies too literally because it can lead to interpretations that contradict other more clear scripture. You constantly take figurative verses literally and sometimes take literal verses figuratively (such as 2 Peter 3).

If you think believers will literally be looking upon the dead carcasses of unbelievers then tell me why God would want to put us through something as gruesome as that? What would be the point? To purposely make us feel terrible? That makes no sense. I believe it's just figuratively describing the major difference between the eternal destinies of believers (new earth) and unbelievers (lake of fire) and it is not meant to be taken literally.

Maybe the way to make sense of some of this, even though the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming, they are not instantaneous but involve a process, which involves a thousand years, a little season, then a great white throne judgment. Then after all of those things, the following is true from that time forth--the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

If you read 2 Peter 3 it's clearly not some long process that results in the new heavens and new earth. Beyond that, what you're saying contradicts what John wrote in Revelation 21 about the new heavens and new earth. He very clearly said that there will be no more death when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. Why can't you accept that?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Why? Because Jesus ONLY says HIS ANGELS.

`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory. And He will send His angels..` (Matt.24: 30 & 31)

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)

Does every passage about the second coming contain all of the details about it? No. Yet, you act like two passages can't relate directly to each other unless they contain all the same details. So, to you, if a passage mentions His second coming but doesn't mention His angels being with Him, then that has to be a different event than the passages that mention His coming and also mention His angels being with Him. That is not the way to interpret scripture.

All of the following passages written by Paul refer to the one future coming of Christ:

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

There is no basis whatsoever for seeing the above passages as not all speaking of the same event, namely the second coming of Christ. They don't all contain the same details about it, but there is no denying that they are speaking of the second coming of Christ.

The first passage, 1 Thess 4:14-17, shows that the dead in Christ (their souls) will be with Him when He comes. It doesn't mention the angels, but there is no basis for concluding that it's a different event than Him coming with His angels just because of that.

The second passage, 2 Thess 1:7-10, mentions the angels being with Him and it mentions Him being glorified in His saints at that time, which should remind you of the saints coming to meet Him in the air at that time. But, with the way you interpret things, you don't come to that conclusion because it doesn't spell it out for you in 2 Thess 1:10 that He comes to be glorified in His saints because of meeting His saints "in the air". It shouldn't be hard to discern that is what it's talking about. Only doctrinal bias can prevent that.

The third passage, 2 Thess 2:1-3, shows that there are things that need to happen first before we are gathered to meet the Lord in the air. Your doctrine contradicts this as you believe that there is nothing specific that needs to happen before we are gathered to Him. But, Paul said a falling away would happen first as well as the man of sin being revealed. This passage alone disproves your pre-trib rapture belief.

The Olivet Discourse only speaks of Christ descending from heaven in the future once. As does the book of Revelation. But, you believe He will descend twice. You have no support for your doctrine from two of the primary sources we have regarding His second coming.

 

[Timtofly]

What did you mean by this?

I agree that the goats will be cast into the lake of fire after the thousand years. But that contradicts your premil beliefs since they are cast into the fire at Christ's second coming with His angels. Since they will be cast into the lake of fire when Christ returns and they will be cast into the lake of fire after the thousand years, as you even say yourself, then that means Christ's return is after the thousand years. Think about it. It's not as if they'll be cast into the lake of fire twice.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left....41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

"And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Jude declares they were locked up until the judgment where the pit was opened. John claims smoke from a giant furnace. Jesus points out Death is the pit containing the angels and the fire of a furnace.

In Revelation Death and sheol are two distinct places. Sheol is where souls go prior to the opening of the 7th Seal. Death is where they go after the 7th Seal is opened. Once the 7th Seal is opened names will be removed from this sealed book. The Lamb's book of life. Only the Lamb can unseal His book. It is the book of Atonement. It was Sealed at the Cross, before the foundation of the world.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

The point of not being written happens to those who worship Satan during the 7th Trumpet. The book is the book of the Lamb. The Lamb (the Cross) slain from the foundation of the world.

Not just the church age, "world". The Atonement covered all humanity (sons of God) before Creation. Now some may put the sons of God into a different category as Adam's descendants. By the time of Noah, all the sons of God were said to do evil and had succumbed to sin.

"And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

God demoted His association with the sons of God and called them man.

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

Still talking about the sons of God. God had already banished Adam and His descendants from His presence.

What we are not told is whether those on day 6 were in rebellion or if these were the offspring. God was just using the generic term for all mankind in general.

We see in Job,

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them."

Did Job live before the Flood? Was Job a mixed offspring? He was never named as a direct descendant of Adam via Seth. If Job is post flood, then not all those created on Day 6 rebelled. Even to this day, there would still be sons of God in God's presence as they did not remain on earth after the Flood.

Death could be the pit that was Sealed when the angels rebelled. It is unsealed but not opened during the 4th Seal. The goats after the Second Coming are judged and placed in Death. Their names removed from the Lamb's book of life at that judgment. Placed in Death, the pit that has a fire like a furnace. Even the tares later in the Thunders are thrown into that same furnace.

The final harvest by Christ is the time of greatest trouble, because souls are being sent to their everlasting destination. It is also prior to the time Satan is allowed to do anything. The 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders happen before the 7th Trumpet. Not that Satan is not free doing what he does now. Since God and Christ are present on earth, then surely Satan will no longer be hiding in the shadows. He will be a campaigning "presidential" candidate for his prophecied 42 months of the harvest. He will be sowing the tares during the first 6 Trumpets. His angels will be loosed, by him during the 5th Trumpet. All who reject God, at this point will be the ones whose names are removed, and their souls placed in Death. The pit does not have to be opened for an angel to place a soul in Death. By the 5th Trumpet though, it will be getting pretty physical especially when the angels from the pit come out physically on the earth. If the pit is opened, will some be bodily thrown into the pit as well?

 

[Timtofly]

Of course he says when it appears. Revelation 19 involves the 2nd coming, and clearly verse 20 has the LOF in view at the time. If the thousand years follow the 2nd coming, that places the initial appearing of the LOF prior to the beginning of the thousand years, or maybe at the very beginning of it.

If the thousand years precede the 2nd coming, as Amils tend to conclude, that places the initial appearing of the LOF after the thousand years, and after satan's little season. Unless you're the first Premil that doesn't think so, since I can't think of any others that don't think so, all Premils agree, along with Amils, that the LOF is already in view as of the 2nd coming.

The following is an interesting passage, IMO.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

IMO, verse 24 is meaning after the 2nd coming during the thousand years and that this is likely meaning the LOF. This appears to be taking place during the time of the new heavens and new earth, otherwise, what are we to make of verse 22 and the mentioning of the new heavens and the new earth in that verse?

To me it seems unreasonable that verse 24 is meaning after the time of the great white throne judgment. But it could be meaning after the time of the sheep and goats judgment though, the fact that judgment is not the great white throne judgment though I am aware, many, mainly Amils, and maybe even some Premils, have a dispute with that conclusion.

That the second coming is after the 1000 years is more a post millennium view. Some post mill are like amil and think the 1000 years is now. Amill are non-future millennium, not altogether non millennium. To claim there is two millennium running concurrently goes hand in hand with Revelation being a series of parallel events themselves starting at the Cross each time.

The new term should be add-mill, not a-mill.

The Lake of Fire may be a growing phenomenon starting with the opening of the pit. All that we know is by the time of the GWT, there is a distinction between sheol, Death, and the LoF. Now like the Trinity, it could be the same place with just 3 different distinctions or purposes? It started out as sheol throughout all of history until the 4th Seal. Then the aspect of Death is added. At Armageddon it is the full blown LoF.

John never claims any one is sent there, during the Millennium. Those who brake the law as individuals are sent somewhere. Sin is not allowed in the Millennium, although most every pre-mill I know, claim sin is rampant like today.

I do not accept Armageddon is the Second Coming. I don't accept sin at all in the Millennium. Sin is eradicated at Armageddon or sooner when the 7th Trumpet ends and the winepress is the completion of all of Adam's flesh and blood. Armageddon only exist if Satan gets 42 months. If no 42 months, the 7th Trumpet stops after a week of days, concluding with the winepress of what is left of humanity. If souls need to be harvested, ie, beheaded during Satan's 42 months, then God is going to allow Satan to be in charge while those beheaded are harvested. It would be far better if those souls entered by way of the Atonement like we do now. Except today's "church" is telling the lost the church will persevere, yet only by beheading. They seem to neglect the beheading part, and some think they are accidentally going to be damned. Is it harder to accept salvation by faith, or to have one's head chopped off to be saved? Why should that even be presented as an option? Why even present the Second Coming at Armageddon. Not even Jesus knew, yet so many are convinced they know when the Second Coming happens. What ever happened to faith and trust, and being ready for an unknown event. How can Armageddon be unknown, it is 42 months after Satan and the FP are given full control?

Isaiah 66 indicates the LoF is viewed quite readily. People will understand in the Millennium that is their Death sentence for breaking the Law. Nothing is by faith after the Second Coming, the 6th Seal, whenever that happens. There is no spiritual blindness. Revelation 6:15-17 does point out all are vulnerable in their nakedness before God.

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This is a rhetorical question. The rhetorical answer is found here:

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

No one will be able to hide from God any more at the Second Coming. Many claim the answer shows when the thief moment happens. No, the thief moment happens when the question is asked. The answer is given after it is too late. It was too late when the question was asked. It will really be too late in chapter 16. No one can even be beheaded by chapter 16. All alive will be heading for the winepress of Armageddon. The only distinction is made by an example of the FP and the beast (thrown into the LoF). All will be dead regardless. Satan is still shown as being only put in the pit, as being allowed out one more time. That may be the only distinction. Satan is the only one allowed out. The GWT is just a symbolic ceremony.

The only thing not making it symbolic, would be, if some were allowed out and allowed to live again.

 

[Timtofly]

That doesn't sound convincing though. How can one define an everlasting period with the first thousand years that still contain death???.
God is not about to allow death to have any place on the restored earth. How could it be seen as a restored NHNE , the restoration of all things when death is still a factor???

We inherit ,at the Lords second coming, what God prepared at the foundation of the world ....when there was no death.

If the dead are mentioned in Isaiah 66, how can that be the NHNE, by your own defined standards of no death?

 

[Timtofly]

I believe it's just figuratively describing the major difference between the eternal destinies of believers (new earth) and unbelievers (lake of fire) and it is not meant to be taken literally.

Are you taking the lake of fire as a literal phenomenon? Or is it symbolic of annihilation? Does the lake of fire exist in the NHNE?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Are you taking the lake of fire as a literal phenomenon?

You mean as referring to literal, physical fire? No.

Or is it symbolic of annihilation?

It's symbolic but not of annihilation. It's a place of eternal torment (Rev 20:10).

Does the lake of fire exist in the NHNE?

I don't know where it will be located. That information isn't given. I would think it will be separate from the NHNE.

 

[DavidPT]

No one can even be beheaded by chapter 16.

Totally agree though maybe not for some of the same reasons. Once the time of chapter 16 begins to come to pass it means the following has been enirely fulfilled---their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11).

IOW, no more saints being martyred ever again at this point. It is instead the time of God judging and avenging our blood on them that dwell on the earth, referring to the martyrs in Revelation 6:10 and what they initially cried out about with a loud voice at the time.

As to when the saints are being martyred, in order to even be Amil one first has to accept that they are being martyred during the thousand years when satan is depicted as bound in the pit at the time. Saints being martyred during the thousand years makes zero sense to me.

 

[Timtofly]

If you read 2 Peter 3 it's clearly not some long process that results in the new heavens and new earth. Beyond that, what you're saying contradicts what John wrote in Revelation 21 about the new heavens and new earth. He very clearly said that there will be no more death when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. Why can't you accept that?

Not some long process?

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;"

Are we not supposed to wait in patience?

 

[Timtofly]

You mean as referring to literal, physical fire? No.

It's symbolic but not of annihilation. It's a place of eternal torment (Rev 20:10).

I don't know where it will be located. That information isn't given. I would think it will be separate from the NHNE.

If fire is not literal, why do the words fire even matter? Any punishment is still punishment