God`s Prophetic Days.

[Marilyn C]

Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

It is talking about the northern kingdom of Israel in that passage. And later down in Jeremiah 3, it indicates in the remaining verses if both Judah and Israel repented, the estranged relationship would be healed.

14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

And then Hosea the Prophet had to give the illustration of God divorcing and marrying again, the nation of Israel.

`It shall be in that day, says the Lord, that you will call me "My husband," And no longer call me 'My master." (Hosea 2: 16)

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You said -
Why would you not see Him coming "to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" (2 Thess 1:10) as being the same event as Him coming to meet His saints "in the air" and then forever being with Him? I believe only doctrinal bias could keep someone from seeing that obvious connection.

They are not the same event because with the `gathering of the saints in the air,` the Lord comes bringing the souls of those asleep in Him. With His coming in power and great glory His angelic army comes with Him.

How are you concluding that it is only His angelic army that comes with Him at His coming in power and great glory? Read Revelation 19:1-8 where it describes His bride being ready for the wedding. You think they don't come with Him when He comes in in power and great glory, as described in Revelation 19:11-21?

If Jesus was going to descend from heaven in the future more than once, as you believe, then why is that not portrayed in the Olivet Discourse or the book of Revelation? Each of those only portray Him descending from heaven once.

 

[Marilyn C]

How are you concluding that it is only His angelic army that comes with Him at His coming in power and great glory? Read Revelation 19:1-8 where it describes His bride being ready for the wedding. You think they don't come with Him when He comes in in power and great glory, as described in Revelation 19:11-21?

If Jesus was going to descend from heaven in the future more than once, as you believe, then why is that not portrayed in the Olivet Discourse or the book of Revelation? Each of those only portray Him descending from heaven once.

It does NOT say that the `wife,` is the army. You are only assuming that because it says the army `is clothed in fine linen, white and clean.` (Rev. 19: 14)

Angels are describes as clothed like that (Rev. 15: 6). The angel army are described as such to distinguish them from the demonic army.

The Olivet discourse is spoken to Israel. Remember the revelation of the Body of Christ was not revealed then. As to the book of Revelation the Body of Christ goes through the `open door` in heaven and is part of Christ`s inauguration to His own throne. (Rev, 4)

 

[Timtofly]

This is just unbelievable to me. Your lack of discernment is shocking. You are trying to suggest that people with "no faith in God", which is how you are describing the sheep of Matthew 25:31-46, will inherit "eternal life" in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world? You can't be serious. No one will inherit eternal life without faith (John 3:16-18).

Yet Calvin claims God only saves the elect, and all the rest of humanity are doomed. How can Jesus' own words be shocking to you? These sheep and goats are not even the church. According to Calvin, not even elect, if they are not the church. What if these sheep are the elect, and the church is by faith? How shocking would that be?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It does NOT say that the `wife,` is the army. You are only assuming that because it says the army `is clothed in fine linen, white and clean.` (Rev. 19: 14)

Angels are describes as clothed like that (Rev. 15: 6). The angel army are described as such to distinguish them from the demonic army.

The bride is described like that in Revelation 19:8, too. Why would you disregard that and only use Rev 15:6 to aid your understanding of who they are? Why can't it refer to both His bride and His angels? It sure looks like doctrinal bias is dictating your understanding of Revelation 19:14.

The Olivet discourse is spoken to Israel. Remember the revelation of the Body of Christ was not revealed then./quote]You act as if something can't already exist or be talked about before it is fully revealed. That makes no sense. The body of Christ is all who belong to Christ. Would you agree? Did no one yet belong to Christ before Paul wrote about the body of Christ?

As far as your point about the Olivet Discourse being spoken to Israel, I see that as a weak argument. John 3:16-18 was spoken to an Israelite. Does that mean it only relates to Israel?

As to the book of Revelation the Body of Christ goes through the `open door` in heaven and is part of Christ`s inauguration to His own throne. (Rev, 4)

You can't reasonably expect me to buy this. There is no mention of the body of Christ going to heaven in Revelation 4. Seeing one person, John, being given a vision of heaven as representing the Body of Christ being bodily taken to heaven is a huge stretch and can't be taken seriously.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yet Calvin claims God only saves the elect, and all the rest of humanity are doomed.

I made no mention of Calvin and I disagree with his understanding of how salvation works, so I don't know why you're bringing him into this.

How can Jesus' own words be shocking to you?

I said your interpretations of His words are shocking to me because they are so far from what He was actually saying.

These sheep and goats are not even the church.

Of course the goats aren't, but the sheep are. They are said to inherit eternal life in God's kingdom. How is that different than what the church inherits?

According to Calvin, not even elect, if they are not the church. What if these sheep are the elect, and the church is by faith? How shocking would that be?

Very, because scripture teaches no such thing. The only way to have eternal life is by faith. And the sheep are said to inherit eternal life. Think about it.

 

[DavidPT]

Yet Calvin claims God only saves the elect, and all the rest of humanity are doomed. How can Jesus' own words be shocking to you? These sheep and goats are not even the church. According to Calvin, not even elect, if they are not the church. What if these sheep are the elect, and the church is by faith? How shocking would that be?

Of course the sheep and goats are meaning the church. They are meaning the church from the time of His ascension to the time of His return. The parable of the talents in Matthew 25 alone prove that fact, since that is the time period that parable is focusing on. None of that parable is involving a time when Christ was still physically present on the earth, nor is it involving a time before He was physically present on the earth. It is involving a time beginning with His ascension through His return.

And what does Jesus do once He returns? before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:


Where does one think the church will be located when He returns? In just one location? How about throughout the nations of the earth? Therefore it makes perfect sense why all nations would be gathered before Him, since this particular judgment is involving the profitable and unprofitable within the church, and that these would be found throughout all the nations in the earth when Jesus returns.

This is one of these times I wish I was wrong and that I am misunderstanding these things pertaining to this subject. But there is no way in a million years that I'm misunderstanding this in particular. If others want to think I am misunderstanding these things, thus misinterpreting them, then fine. That still doesn't make it true that I am misunderstanding these things just because some think and insist I am. I went through things like that years ago when I was debating the serpent seed doctrine with Arnold Murray students. They too told me time and time again that I was the one misunderstanding Genesis 3, thus misinterpreting that chapter, and that it was them that wasn't. I wonder if that made it true then, that because they insisted I was the one misunderstanding Genesis 3, that means I actually was?


BTW, I'm not claiming that I am then understanding everything else in the Bible correctly at all times because I am understanding this correctly. There is no way I think that.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Of course the sheep and goats are meaning the church. They are meaning the church from the time of His ascension to the time of His return.

You think some in the church will be cast into everlasting fire (Matt 25:41)? Really? Impossible. The church consists only of believers who will inherit eternal life and that describes the sheep, not the goats.

I challenge you to show me even one verse in scripture which indicates that an unsaved person can be part of the church.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

This passages describes those who are part of the body of Christ/the church. Does this look like a description that would fit any unsaved person? No way. Scripture never teaches that an unsaved person can be considered part of the church/body of Christ and the goats are clearly all unsaved people as evidenced by the fact that they are cast into everlasting fire to experience "everlasting punishment" (Matt 25:46).

 

[Timtofly]

How do you reconcile your view with what this passage indicates which is that all people, good and bad, will be gathered, separated into two groups and judged at the same time?

Matthew 25, is not bringing the nations out of sheol, the grave. It is bringing living sheep and goats out of living nations.

How is Daniel which is "souls" out of the graves, dust, the same event as a judgment of those not even in the grave, dust, yet?

 

[DavidPT]

You think some in the church will be cast into everlasting fire (Matt 25:41)? Really? Impossible. The church consists only of believers who will inherit eternal life and that describes the sheep, not the goats.

I thought you believed that NOSAS is Biblical? It doesn't sound like you do if you think no one in the church can be cast into the LOF. I'm not even remotely suggesting that the ones that remain saved in the end are cast into the LOF. I'm meaning the ones that don't remain saved in the end. I'm meaning NOSAS.

Let me ask you this then, based on what else you asked me in this post. What exactly is your definition of NOSAS? How can that not mean to you the same thing it means to me and others who hold that position?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Matthew 25, is not bringing the nations out of sheol, the grave. It is bringing living sheep and goats out of living nations.

Where does it say that they have not been resurrected? Can you acknowledge that you are just assuming that?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I thought you believed that NOSAS is Biblical? It doesn't sound like you do if you think no one in the church can be cast into the LOF. I'm not even remotely suggesting that the ones that remain saved in the end are cast into the LOF. I'm meaning the ones that don't remain saved in the end. I'm meaning NOSAS.

You're not getting it. Do you think I lied before when I said I believed NOSAS is biblical or that I somehow mistakenly told you that when it wasn't actually the case? Of course I didn't. So, why wouldn't you then conclude that you must be misunderstanding me rather than acting like I either wasn't being truthful or didn't know what I was talking about when I told you that before?

Anyway, my point is that when a person is unsaved, even if they were previously saved, they are not in the church. You have to currently possess faith in Christ in order to be part of the church. I gave you a passage which shows who is in the body of Christ/church, and you said nothing in response to that. Even if a person was once in the church, they are no longer in the church if they lose their faith and their salvation. Am I being clear enough? No person who is currently unsaved, regardless of whether they've been saved before or not, is part of the church. I'm just as sure about that as you claim to be about the goats being part of the church. Yet, we can't both be right.

I assume you agree that Matthew 25:31-46 will occur when Christ returns? Each person who is alive at the time will be determined as being either a sheep or a goat based on whether they are saved or not at the time. Only those who are saved at the time are part of the church. Unsaved people are not part of the church. You can't prove otherwise. So, it's those who are not part of the church at the time He returns that are represented as the goats.

Since I believe this judgment also includes those who were dead and have been resurrected, then their status as one of the sheep or one of the goats will be determined by whether they were saved or not when they died. If they were unsaved when they died then they were not part of the church when they died.

I asked you to provide me with even one verse to show that an unsaved person could be part of the church and you didn't do so. What should I take away from that? That you don't have any? If you do have any, then please share them.

Let me ask you this then, based on what else you asked me in this post. What exactly is your definition of NOSAS? How can that not mean to you the same thing it means to me and others who hold that position?

It's the same as yours. It's self-explanatory. Being saved doesn't guarantee you remain saved. It means you can be saved but later lose your salvation if you lose your faith, as passages like Hebrew 3:12-14, Romans 11:22 and Hebrews 6:4-6 indicate. Obviously. Everyone knows what it means, yet, you somehow thought I might be the only person in the world to not know what it means. Again, why would you assume that I don't know what it means instead of realizing that you must have been misunderstanding what I was saying?

 

[Timtofly]

I made no mention of Calvin and I disagree with his understanding of how salvation works, so I don't know why you're bringing him into this.

I said your interpretations of His words are shocking to me because they are so far from what He was actually saying.

Of course the goats aren't, but the sheep are. They are said to inherit eternal life in God's kingdom. How is that different than what the church inherits?

Very, because scripture teaches no such thing. The only way to have eternal life is by faith. And the sheep are said to inherit eternal life. Think about it.

Are you saying at the Second Coming, the church is not raptured, but called out on display as sheep? Why did Paul not claim the live and remain are sheep, and saved because of good works?

 

[Timtofly]

Very, because scripture teaches no such thing. The only way to have eternal life is by faith. And the sheep are said to inherit eternal life. Think about it.

These sheep reign on earth forever. Even that is eternal life.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Are you saying at the Second Coming, the church is not raptured, but called out on display as sheep?

No, that's not what I'm saying. I've explained my understanding of what happens on the day Christ returns many times. If you don't know what I believe by now, then you're just not paying attention.

Why did Paul not claim the live and remain are sheep, and saved because of good works?

Because "sheep" is obviously a figurative term and Paul wasn't speaking figuratively in 1 Thess 4:14-17. No one is saved because of good works (Eph 2:8-10). Including the sheep. Yet, they are obviously saved as only saved people receive eternal life. Think about it. You need to stop drawing conclusions about passages like Matthew 25:31-46 that contradict scripture and instead find a way to interpret Matthew 25:31-46 in such a way that doesn't contradict other scripture.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

These sheep reign on earth forever. Even that is eternal life.

I assume you mean the new earth since this earth as we know it will be burned up (2 Peter 3:10-13).

What does John 3:16 say is required to obtain eternal life? Since the sheep obtain eternal life, it must be that they did what is required according to John 3:16. There is no other way to receive eternal life except through faith. If you have faith in Christ you will do the kind of things described in Matthew 25:31-46 as it relates to what Jesus says the sheep do for Him. People are identified by their fruit/works (Matt 7:16-20). Jesus said that. Our fruit/works reflect our faith, but it is not our works that is required for salvation, it's faith (Eph 2:8-10).

If works were required for salvation, then that would mean the thief on the cross wasn't saved. But, he was. But, Jesus knew he had the kind of faith that would have resulted in good works if he had the chance and that is why he was saved. This is a concept that you clearly do not understand.

 

[Timtofly]

Of course the sheep and goats are meaning the church. They are meaning the church from the time of His ascension to the time of His return. The parable of the talents in Matthew 25 alone prove that fact, since that is the time period that parable is focusing on. None of that parable is involving a time when Christ was still physically present on the earth, nor is it involving a time before He was physically present on the earth. It is involving a time beginning with His ascension through His return.

And what does Jesus do once He returns? before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:


Where does one think the church will be located when He returns? In just one location? How about throughout the nations of the earth? Therefore it makes perfect sense why all nations would be gathered before Him, since this particular judgment is involving the profitable and unprofitable within the church, and that these would be found throughout all the nations in the earth when Jesus returns.

This is one of these times I wish I was wrong and that I am misunderstanding these things pertaining to this subject. But there is no way in a million years that I'm misunderstanding this in particular. If others want to think I am misunderstanding these things, thus misinterpreting them, then fine. That still doesn't make it true that I am misunderstanding these things just because some think and insist I am. I went through things like that years ago when I was debating the serpent seed doctrine with Arnold Murray students. They too told me time and time again that I was the one misunderstanding Genesis 3, thus misinterpreting that chapter, and that it was them that wasn't. I wonder if that made it true then, that because they insisted I was the one misunderstanding Genesis 3, that means I actually was?


BTW, I'm not claiming that I am then understanding everything else in the Bible correctly at all times because I am understanding this correctly. There is no way I think that.

I am just going by what the verses say. Are you as part of the church, going to ask the Lord, why you are even chosen?

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

I already know the question, and know the reason. None of these have to do with accepting the Atonement of the Cross, by faith.

 

[Timtofly]

You think some in the church will be cast into everlasting fire (Matt 25:41)? Really? Impossible. The church consists only of believers who will inherit eternal life and that describes the sheep, not the goats.

I challenge you to show me even one verse in scripture which indicates that an unsaved person can be part of the church.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

This passages describes those who are part of the body of Christ/the church. Does this look like a description that would fit any unsaved person? No way. Scripture never teaches that an unsaved person can be considered part of the church/body of Christ and the goats are clearly all unsaved people as evidenced by the fact that they are cast into everlasting fire to experience "everlasting punishment" (Matt 25:46).

Interesting that some who claim to be spiritually Israel may be decieving themselves, no?

Many claimed to be physical Israel and were not. Just saying.

Since this is during the Trumpets, and Christ is on earth, and these people have not shed Adam's corruptible body, it would seem these are physical sheep of Israel. God's elect to live on earth forever. Of course only pre-mill have earth as habitable and prepared for the iron rule of Christ for 1,000 years. They will just keep on living on earth, even in the NHNE. The goats will be placed in Death, and after the 1,000 years, cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[Timtofly]

Where does it say that they have not been resurrected? Can you acknowledge that you are just assuming that?

You are assuming the nations are dead and there are nations in sheol, the grave?

 

[DavidPT]

The goats will be placed in Death, and after the 1,000 years, cast into the Lake of Fire.

Does this mean you think the goats are then raised from the dead after the thousand years in order to stand in front of God at the great white throne judgment, meaning they are judged and sentenced yet again, thus receive the exact same sentence they already received at the sheep and goats judgment a thousand years earlier?