God`s Plan.

[BABerean2]

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
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Mmmm you are about to be very surprised. And by that I mean I believe the rapture, the catching away of the mature Body of Christ to its eternal setting in glory, will be as close as early next year. So we`ll be watching and waiting.[/QUOTE]


Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

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[Marilyn C]

Mmmm you are about to be very surprised. And by that I mean I believe the rapture, the catching away of the mature Body of Christ to its eternal setting in glory, will be as close as early next year. So we`ll be watching and waiting.

Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.[/QUOTE]

And when did Jesus say that? When he was on earth. However NOW He is at the right hand of the Father building the Body of Christ. Do you think He knows now that He is part of the Godhead, Omniscient, all knowing? Of course. So what does the Lord, the Head of the Body say to His Body.

`But you brethren, are NOT in darkness, so the day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

Are you in darkness BB?

`But exhorting one another, and SO MUCH THE MORE as you see the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

Are you doing that BB? Are you seeing the Day approaching?

 

[Jamdoc]

I think more important at admonishing a pretrib rapture position are 2 Thessalonians 2 and Matthew 24:29-31 which describes the rapture itself taking place after the tribulations of those days (but note Jesus didn't give signs of the seas turning to blood or 60 pound hailstones.. so unless Jesus didn't feel it necessary to describe those things but rather just included them in "great tribulations" then a post trib, pre wrath position is what is described)

 

[Marilyn C]

I think more important at admonishing a pretrib rapture position are 2 Thessalonians 2 and Matthew 24:29-31 which describes the rapture itself taking place after the tribulations of those days (but note Jesus didn't give signs of the seas turning to blood or 60 pound hailstones.. so unless Jesus didn't feel it necessary to describe those things but rather just included them in "great tribulations" then a post trib, pre wrath position is what is described)

Hi Jamdoc,

Actually the pot-tribbers are in darkness.

`But you brethren are NOT in darkness that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day.` (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)

`but exhorting one another, and so much the more as YOU SEE THE DAY approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

So do you think you will not know when the Lord comes? Are you thus in darkness?

Do you think you wont see the Day approaching? Are you in darkness?

 

[Jamdoc]

Hi Jamdoc,

Actually the pot-tribbers are in darkness.

`But you brethren are NOT in darkness that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day.` (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)

`but exhorting one another, and so much the more as YOU SEE THE DAY approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

So do you think you will not know when the Lord comes? Are you thus in darkness?

Do you think you wont see the Day approaching? Are you in darkness?

No, I see the day it approaches, but I'm watching for a specific sign that Jesus told us about, that is the main signal to look up for our redemption is nigh

Matthew 24:15

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Paul says it too
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

until the prerequisite signs are met, Jesus does not return.

 

[BABerean2]

Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

And when did Jesus say that? When he was on earth. However NOW He is at the right hand of the Father building the Body of Christ. Do you think He knows now that He is part of the Godhead, Omniscient, all knowing? Of course. So what does the Lord, the Head of the Body say to His Body.

`But you brethren, are NOT in darkness, so the day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

Are you in darkness BB?

`But exhorting one another, and SO MUCH THE MORE as you see the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

Are you doing that BB? Are you seeing the Day approaching?

Now it see.

No man can know the day or the hour, but a woman can...

Ellen G. White thought the same thing.

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[Marilyn C]

Now it see.

No man can know the day or the hour, but a woman can...

Ellen G. White thought the same thing.

So are you telling me that the Lord at the right hand of the Father, part of the Godhead is NOT OMNISCIENT (all knowing)?
Does He not know when He will come for His Body He is building and maturing?

 

[Marilyn C]

No, I see the day it approaches, but I'm watching for a specific sign that Jesus told us about, that is the main signal to look up for our redemption is nigh

Matthew 24:15


Paul says it too
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


until the prerequisite signs are met, Jesus does not return.

You are referring to what Jesus said to the people of Israel concerning their future NOT ours. The Bible is for us to read BUT it is NOT all about US. It is all about Christ and His purposes.

The Body of Christ and its future was NOT known by the people of Israel and Jesus certainly didn`t tell them about it.

 

[BABerean2]

So are you telling me that the Lord at the right hand of the Father, part of the Godhead is NOT OMNISCIENT (all knowing)?
Does He not know when He will come for His Body He is building and maturing?

I am not telling you anything. That would be Christ telling you in the verse below.


Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


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[Jamdoc]

You are referring to what Jesus said to the people of Israel concerning their future NOT ours. The Bible is for us to read BUT it is NOT all about US. It is all about Christ and His purposes.

The Body of Christ and its future was NOT known by the people of Israel and Jesus certainly didn`t tell them about it.

You're forcing a dispensationalist worldview into scripture that doesn't exist, where Paul tells us Galatians 3:28.

 

[Marilyn C]

I am not telling you anything. That would be Christ telling you in the verse below.


Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


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That`s NOT the Lord talking to me but the people of Israel who are in partial blindness.

THIS is what the Lord is saying to me,

`But you,...are NOT in darkness that this day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

 

[Marilyn C]

You're forcing a dispensationalist worldview into scripture that doesn't exist, where Paul tells us Galatians 3:28.

That is IN the Body of Christ - no Jew nor Greek....etc

However the Lord does tell us to -

`Give NO offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks, or to the church of God..` (1 Cor. 10: 32)

 

[Jamdoc]

That is IN the Body of Christ - no Jew nor Greek....etc

However the Lord does tell us to -

`Give NO offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks, or to the church of God..` (1 Cor. 10: 32)

and that means that Jews go through the tribulations but evangelized gentiles get a secret rapture that's not in scripture how? We're grafted into the family of God, we're branches that shouldn't consider ourselves superior to the trunk we're grafted into. Romans 11 gives an admonishment about the very nature of treating gentiles differently from Jews. We're all saved by the same thing, the new covenant was offered to Israel first, then the gentiles after.

Let's be clear here. there is only 1 rapture event, that happens at the return of Christ in the clouds. It is the first event within His second coming which has multiple events contained in it and lasts into eternity, but if you agree that in Matthew 24 it is describing that the saints are gathered/raptured at the return of Christ, then to claim that there's a secret pre trib rapture, is to claim that there are 2 rapture events, and 3 resurrections.

 

[Marilyn C]

and that means that Jews go through the tribulations but evangelized gentiles get a secret rapture that's not in scripture how? We're grafted into the family of God, we're branches that shouldn't consider ourselves superior to the trunk we're grafted into. Romans 11 gives an admonishment about the very nature of treating gentiles differently from Jews. We're all saved by the same thing, the new covenant was offered to Israel first, then the gentiles after.

Let's be clear here. there is only 1 rapture event, that happens at the return of Christ in the clouds. It is the first event within His second coming which has multiple events contained in it and lasts into eternity, but if you agree that in Matthew 24 it is describing that the saints are gathered/raptured at the return of Christ, then to claim that there's a secret pre trib rapture, is to claim that there are 2 rapture events, and 3 resurrections.

Ah I see what is confusing you. In Romans we see that the Gentiles are grafted into CHRIST, NOT Israel. It is the Lord who is the root, holy and nourishes us. (Rom. 11: 16 - 17) Israel is not holy, nor nourishes us.

I don`t see any people raptured in Matt. 24. The angels are gathering in the remnant of Israel. The prophet Isaiah also tells us of this. (Isa. 66: 18 - 21)

 

[Jamdoc]

Ah I see what is confusing you. In Romans we see that the Gentiles are grafted into CHRIST, NOT Israel. It is the Lord who is the root, holy and nourishes us. (Rom. 11: 16 - 17) Israel is not holy, nor nourishes us.

I don`t see any people raptured in Matt. 24. The angels are gathering in the remnant of Israel. The prophet Isaiah also tells us of this. (Isa. 66: 18 - 21)

Paul taught differently. Paul's depiction of the rapture is a combination of the resurrection references in old testament, and Jesus' teaching in the Olivet Discourse. In 2 Thessalonians 2 he is specific that it is us, the saints, that Jesus is gathering to Him. In Matthew 24 it is the ELECT that are gathered, not just Israel or the Jews. That's not what Jesus says.
Matthew 24:31

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You're so stuck on the doctrine that the rapture MUST be pre trib, that you ignore what scripture actually tries to tell you.
Pre trib rapture and dispensationalism and this separation of Israel and the "church age" are new fabrications. This isn't what Jesus taught, or Paul, or John, or anyone else who actually contributed to scripture.

 

[BABerean2]

That`s NOT the Lord talking to me but the people of Israel who are in partial blindness.

THIS is what the Lord is saying to me,

`But you,...are NOT in darkness that this day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

If the Book of Matthew was written to the Jews, can you explain why the Great Commission to the Church is found at the end of the book?

Are you wrongly dividing the Word of God, as John Nelson Darby did?


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[Jamdoc]

it's not often that I agree with preterists and amillennialists..
but if we were to take this hyper dispensationalist doctrine, we'd only read the epistles of Paul, and Acts, because everything else was written to the Jews so it doesn't apply to us.

 

[Marilyn C]

If the Book of Matthew was written to the Jews, can you explain why the Great Commission to the Church is found at the end of the book?

Are you wrongly dividing the Word of God, as John Nelson Darby did?


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The great commission was given to the 12 disciples who are NOT a part of the Body of Christ. We do note that the 12 disciples had difficulty obeying that commission, plus remember Peter found it hard to go to the Gentiles, and when he did he tried to get them to act as Jews. He did not understand the revelation of the Body of Christ that was given to the Apostle Paul.

 

[Marilyn C]

it's not often that I agree with preterists and amillennialists..
but if we were to take this hyper dispensationalist doctrine, we'd only read the epistles of Paul, and Acts, because everything else was written to the Jews so it doesn't apply to us.

We read God`s word because it is ALL ABOUT REVEALING CHRIST. God`s word is not all about us and we do NOT apply all things to ourselves. God`s word is for us to read and learn of God`s unfolding revelation of His precious Son who was foretold, foreseen & then manifest on earth and now glorified at the Father`s right hand.

let`s get our eyes off ourselves and do as God`s word says, `Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith...` (Heb. 12: 2)

 

[Marilyn C]

Paul taught differently. Paul's depiction of the rapture is a combination of the resurrection references in old testament, and Jesus' teaching in the Olivet Discourse. In 2 Thessalonians 2 he is specific that it is us, the saints, that Jesus is gathering to Him. In Matthew 24 it is the ELECT that are gathered, not just Israel or the Jews. That's not what Jesus says.
Matthew 24:31

You're so stuck on the doctrine that the rapture MUST be pre trib, that you ignore what scripture actually tries to tell you.
Pre trib rapture and dispensationalism and this separation of Israel and the "church age" are new fabrications. This isn't what Jesus taught, or Paul, or John, or anyone else who actually contributed to scripture.

Israel is also called the `elect,` of God.

The OT writers & 12 disciples never knew of the revelation of the Body of Christ. It was kept hidden (as God`s word tells us) -

`which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would have not crucified the Lord of Glory.` (1 Cor. 2: 8)