God PLEASE don't leave us!!

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Watching the news late last night ( with my eyes closed);) I heard a recap of the days events over the removal of the 10C Monument. The commontator was apparently speaking in front of the building where they have been protesting and while he was this man's anquished voice cried out:

"Oh God! PLEASE DON'T LEAVE US!!!!"

And I thought to myself:

"Do people really think that a monument represents God? "

I also heard on Hannity and Colmbes last night this woman from the civil liberties union say that even with this removal that God still lives on in our hearts and no court of law can take that away, Bless her!


So what do you think? By removing these stones carved by man, will God also leave? ( Not that He isn't being pushed out everywhere big time) but doesn't that mean we need to let him shine through us even now more than ever because He does live on in our hearts.

As Ol' Frankie ( Sinatra) said,

"They can't take that away from me...........":)
 
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ZiSunka

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God never leaves the faithful, and never was with the unfaithful, so nothing will change.

I personally don't see how having a stone with the ten commandments is that important anyway. The whole circus borders on idolatry, with people who call themselves by the name of Christ screaming, "You're taking my god away!" It's ridiculous. That stone is not our God. We are not impeded in anyway from practicing our faith or worshipping our God just because a stone was removed from a public building.
 
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ACougar

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I've brought this up before but never really received a response, I'm going to try again.

First, the old testement contains at least 200 other laws... why are the ten commandments aplicable but they are not?

Second, Jesus gave his followers new commandments to follow in the new testement. Why all this fixation on old testement law instead of new testement law?


I've quoted this to illustrate what I'm talking about in the first question:

"The other odd 200+:

Alter: "An alter of ground you are to make for me, and you must sacrifice upon it your burnt offerings and your communion sacrifices, your flock and your herd... and if you should make an alter of stones for me, you must not build them as hewn stones." Ex. 20:24-26 There is something here about the sound and touch of tools, also in the building of the temple, that they would profane the alter. Could this be a reminder of our Animistic roots? or an admonition not to expect permanence?

Slaves: there is here an elaborate set of rules regarding obtaining and owning slaves, that they shall only be slaves for six years, and on the seventh go free, but there seems to be exceptions for most everything. A basic theme here seems to be a preservation of hope. You may enslave another to do your work, but leave him the hope of living long enough to enjoy freedom, unless it's a woman, then you leave her hope for her children. Ex. 21:2-11

Killing: Ex. 21:12-36, 22:2 Is it premeditated? you're dead! If not, you are to be provided a place to flee to.
Curse: Ex. 21:17 (calling down evil on parents), 22:28 (calling down evil on God or a chief) Both of these are capital offenses.

Interest: Forbidden. You may not lend money with it! Ex. 22:25-27
- see also Banking article.

Deception: Ex. 23:1-8 Aside from making it a crime to lie, there is also an admonition here against following the crowd for evil purposes and lieing to avoid the rejection of the crowd. Is it then not wrong to stand with a church against a Galileo, and refuse to see his evidence? or stand with the state in an agrandizing war, fearing to point out the crimes behind it?

Rumors: Ex. 23:1-3

Festival: Ex. 23:14-17

Gods: Ex. 23:13 see also gods article.

Sacrifice: Ex. 20:24, 22:20, 22:29-30* 23:18-19 The requirement of giving of first-born to God, both of livestock and human children, is a strong indication that the Hebrews under Moses practiced infanticide. While it does not explicitly state that first-born children are to be slaughtered, they are here lumped with animals whose sacrifice clearly entails that." Referance


Then of course we have the Laws that were actually given to us by Jesus in the new testement. I've quoted this to help illustrate what I'm talking about in the second question:

"Laws of Jesus
"Which commandment is first of all?" Jesus answered: "The first is,... love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and all your strength."
"The second is this, "You must love your neighbor as yourself" Mark 12:28-31
"Do not swear at all" Matt. 5:34 The reference to the law of Moses, preceding, clearly indicates that Jesus is referring to oaths of law. Noteworthy is that Jesus explains this commandment. (5:34-37) The first three lines of this say don't swear by these (Earth, Jerusalem, color of your hair), because they are not subject to your control. Line 36 says you cannot change the color of a single strand of hair by saying so. Reality is not dictated by our words. Line 37 tells us to say only yes or no. While this does not tell us how to answer a more open-ended question, it can be understood as a rejection of assurances. In effect, when you swear on an oath of law, you are, in fact, giving assurance that what you are saying is the truth. This is far from being a reasonable test of validity. No scientist can accept assurances before evidence. Scientists, like any seekers of truth, want evidence first and assurances not at all. Saying something is true does not make it so. Logically, then, the alternative offered in American courts to those who honor this commandment, to AFFIRM, is simply another assurance and goes beyond the yes or no which Jesus permits. As such, it constitutes the precise same violation.
"... everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court;..." Matt. 5:21-22 Clearly, Jesus had no respect for hate.
"If, then you are bringing your gift to the altar and you there remember that your brother has something against you, leave the gift there in front of the altar, and go away; first make your peace with your brother..." Matt. 5:23-24
"Be about settling matters quickly with the one complaining against you at law.." Matt. 5:25-26
"... everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matt. 5:27-28 It is not the deed alone that is wrong, but also wishing to commit it. Something hinted at here, but not clearly stated, is that lusting is wrong, not just lusting for someone already spoken for. This is hard and out of character for the tolerance otherwise indicated in the law of Jesus. In fact, both history and the Bible give indication that Jesus was married. The questions then arise: is this really a commandment, or a commentary on the commandment of Moses? Is it really the attraction and passion we are to feel guilty about? or is it obsessiveness?
"Do not resist him that is wicked; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him." Matt. 5:38-40 "and if someone under authority impresses you into service for a mile, go with him two miles." Matt. 5:41-42
"love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" Matt. 5:43-48 "If you love those loving you, what reward do you have?" - Be extraordinary! Instigate love and love freely.
"Take good care not to practice your righteousness in front of men in order to be observed by them" Matt. 6:1-8
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matt.7:1-2 also: "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven." Luke 6:37
"do not you be called rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all are your brothers." Matt.23:8
"call no-one on earth father, for One is your Father in heaven" Matt.23:9 (Since the rabbi bit is already covered in the previous commandment, he must not be talking about priests, here, but about paternity. Is he not then, promoting matriarchy?)
"Neither be called 'leaders', for one is your leader is one, the Christ." Matt.23:10 (Sounds anti-government to me. Comments, anyone?)
See also Blaspheme, Forgiveness, Love, Sacrements, Vengeance, Women" Referance
 
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lared

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Do you really think the creator is with a nation that annually murders tens of thousands unborn children?

And profits off of it at the same time! (The government gets a kickback for each abortion performed in the way of income tax monies.)

Which nation really has weapons of mass destruction and is using them daily?
 
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ACougar

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Y’VA–REKH’KHA ADONAI said:
Actually the Torah contains over 600 commandments.

What are the "new" commandments?

The new commandments are listed in the second half of my origional post.

600 laws, wow.. I won't argue that. The question however is "If these laws still apply (10 commandments) why don't the other 600 or 200 given by YHVH to the Isralites?
 
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ByGrace

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I have to agree that it is due time we as Christians start following the commands given by Jesus. To love God with all we are and to love one another. Since this is beyone our natural self we need to be praying for a heart of love and be willing to give it. Lots of people say they love others but then condemn them for one thing or another. LOVE, AGAPE LOVE is the willingness to love another even if we dont agree with them. God will only not be happy with us if we disregard this command, not if we dont have an idolatrous block of rock in a courthouse and that is exactly what it became. I cannot even fathom the energy put into saving that rock that could have been put into finding and loving the lost. I dont think you would have seen Jesus at one of those rallies had He been around and if you did I bet He would have said to follow the law and set an example and take it down. Live the Gospel in your lives, not in your statues.
 
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Yitzchak

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ACougar said:
The new commandments are listed in the second half of my origional post.

600 laws, wow.. I won't argue that. The question however is "If these laws still apply (10 commandments) why don't the other 600 or 200 given by YHVH to the Isralites?

613 is the exact number. This is a hotly debated issue within the christian community. Some advocate not following any of them. Some advocate applying the principles contained in the law bu tnot all the specific commands. Some advocate only following the laws that are found in the bible but none of the ones contained in the oral law of the jews.
The ten commandments has generally been considered a divine summary of the principles behind the commands though. A set of ten principles uopn which all the others are based. So those christians who are int eh camp which advocates following the principles contained in the law emphasizes the ten commandments.
 
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ACougar

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So they believe that the 10 commandments represent the spirit of the law and that other old testement law is no longer relavent?

What surprises me however is that some Christians seem to place the 10 commandments of the old testament on a higher level than the commandments given by Jesus... that is puzzling.





Yitzchak said:
613 is the exact number. This is a hotly debated issue within the christian community. Some advocate not following any of them. Some advocate applying the principles contained in the law bu tnot all the specific commands. Some advocate only following the laws that are found in the bible but none of the ones contained in the oral law of the jews.
The ten commandments has generally been considered a divine summary of the principles behind the commands though. A set of ten principles uopn which all the others are based. So those christians who are int eh camp which advocates following the principles contained in the law emphasizes the ten commandments.
 
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Yitzchak

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ACougar said:
So they believe that the 10 commandments represent the spirit of the law and that other old testement law is no longer relavent?

As I understand evangelical teaching, that seems to be the teaching at least among protestants. As I said however it is hotly debated and I am just giving you here what I consider to be the majority opinion that I have observed in 22 years of attending evangelical churches.
 
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Some in this thread seem to be missing the point about standing up for righteousness. Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law not completely do away with it. Many Christians seem to give grace as pretty much a license to sin and strattle the fence. In other words to live one way in the church and another way when we are not in the church house. Love is a commandment of God but not to the point where we dont seem to see God as a just God also who gave us a law to live by his word. We can not get so caught up in this so called love movement where we just leave all the homosexuals, prostitutes, those who are into incest etc alone and not point them to the truth. True love sometimes has to get in their face and at times offend people. We should always have a loving spirit no doubt but just dont sweep sin under the rug and not deal with it. There is some who think love means to just accept and go along with anything that comes along no matter how evil or corrupt it may be. The ten commandments statue is not God by any means and I do not worship it. It was given by God though and it still applies to us in this day and time. The only question that I have is how long is God (Jesus) going to keep blessing us? We have abortion on demand homosexuality and other forms of inappropriate contentography running wild. Even our churches are running rampant with these things. Praise God for Chuches that preach the truth still and will not be shaken in their faith. True love sometimes means being offensive.
 
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Yitzchak

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An interesting passage which relates to this subject is found in James 2:8-13

" If you really keep the royal law found in scripture, 'love your neighbor as yourself,' you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For HE who said, ' Do not commit adultery,' also said, " Do not murder,' If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment."

The royal law refered to here is Leviticus 19:18 by the way. It is the second great commandment quoted by Jesus in his well known response to which is the greatest commandment.( Matthew 22:34-40 ; Mark 12:28-31 ; Luke 10:27 ) The first is from deuteronomy 6 : 4-5 and is a well known jewish prayer called the schema. Jesus says that on these two commands hang all the law and the prophets.
These are not really new concepts but were well known and still are among the pharisees to this day.
My understanding of it is this. Sin begins in the heart so that if my heart is unloving then even the commands which I outwardly keep are broken in my heart. Hence the whole law is broken not just the ones I outwardly broke. The commandments all tie together and cannot be seperated. To break one is to show my heart sinful and unable to truelly keep the ones that I seem to keep outwardly in the true spirit which they were meant.

1 John 4: 19-21
" We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, ' I love GOD,' yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love GOD, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: whoever loves GOD must also love his brother. "
As the scripture in James which I quoted says, we need to show mercy so that we may be shown mercy also because we all fall far short of these standards.
 
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lambslove said:
God never leaves the faithful, and never was with the unfaithful, so nothing will change.

I tend to disagree with that comment...if God was never with the unfaithful, how can the unfaithful be turned from their sins to see the Glory of God? God and Jesus didnt need to be with the faithful, because they had already seen his ways and love and grace. Thats why, when Jesus came down to earth, he went to the sinners: he went to Galilee which was the slums. He went to the lepers which were social outcasts, he went to prostitutes and other 'unfaithful' people. Isnt one of the Christian things to help the unfaithful because they need to be saved? What good is a Christian who just stays with his/her own people? It's one thing to go to Church every week and pray. But there's a difference between that and really spreading God's word. If Jesus helped the unfaithful and the sinners, why can't we?
 
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Lanakila

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Amen Yitzchak. My only question is about the Sabbath. I know that Jews, and even Messianic Jews normal observe Sabbath. What of us Gentiles? I have really been wondering this. The law is written in our hearts according to the NT author Paul. But does this mean the 10 commandments including Sabbath, or only the 2 Greatest Commandments that Jesus mentioned?
 
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