"God-ordained sin"? 1 Kings 22:22-23, Exodus 4:21 and Genesis 50:20

[Ben johnson]

There's nothing in the context to deny that "see" is "enter". Further, Jesus rebukes Nick for "being a teacher and not knowing this". Such a rebuke is unnecessary for "predestined-faith".

The "double narrative" already exists in the passage.

"Unless one is born of water, and the Spirit....
That which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
Jn3:5-6

Undeniably, "water=flesh", and "Spirit=Spirit". Verse 6 repeats verse 5.

So it's not "extreme" to recognize the double-narrative between verses 3, and 4.

"Unless one is born again, he cannot see Heaven."
"Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into Heaven."

It would be a stretch to contend that "see" is NOT "enter", just as it is clear that "born-again" is "born-of-Spirit".

Nowhere else in Scripture is the idea of "unless one is born-again, he cannot perceive Jesus' Gospel".

Being "born-again", is "becoming-begotten"; is "by receiving Jesus, by believing in His name".

cygnusx1
saved through faith yes , sanctified and justified through faith , yes , but made alive by faith ?

scripture please !

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, undulging th edesires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even WHEN we were dead in our sins, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace THROUGH FAITH have you been saved, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not by works lest anyone boast..."

One would have to propose TWO "savings-by-grace", to deny that "by grace through faith" (verse 8), doesn't simply repeat "by grace" (verse 5). And/or one would have to deny that the parenthetical ("by grace [through faith]") directly modifies "made us alive". Neither of these two positions is credible.

1. "Made-alive", is WHEN we were dead.
2. "Made alive", is "by grace".
3. "By grace", is "by grace through faith".

Thus --- "made alive through faith", is undeniable.

 

[nobdysfool]

The worst case of eisegesis and false reasoning I have seen in a long while. Ben, don't quit your day job. You aren't going to make it as an author or a theologian. You just don't have the necessary reasoning skills.

Un-freaking-believable!

 

[nobdysfool]

Show me where in Scripture "belief happens AFTER we were made alive". If you can, then tell me how you explain the contradiction with Eph2:5-8.......

...and so will you and I...

I will answer this, as I can find the time. but I 'm going to ask you to return to the subject of the thread, which you have tried to deflect from almost from the beginning.

No more rabbit-trails, Ben. Quit changing the subject, and running to all your pet doctrines and bombardment of the thread with non-sequiters. That is a favorite tactic of yours. It stops now. Stay on the subject.

 

[DArceri]

Hi, Darceri.
Paul wrote "When we were dead in our sins, God made us alive ...through faith".

Ben. When you quote this verse, why do you always leave out the second part of the verse?

" For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;

 

[Ben johnson]

The subject flowed, by the others' posts. I deflected nothing, I answered the three passages.

Eph2 says "WHEN we were dead, God made us alive --- ...by grace, through faith". It is not "eisegesis" to understand that "through faith", happened "when we were dead" --- or that "we were made alive by His grace, through faith".

Throughout Scripture the faith that receives God's grace (see Rom5:17), comes from man's own heart (see Rom10:10, 6:17).

With sincere respect, it's easy to say "that's the worst case of eisegesis" --- but will you show me specifically how it is?

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben. When you quote this verse, why do you always leave out the second part of the verse?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves";

New American Standard footnotes, "that salvation". There's only one subject there, Darceri --- "by grace have you been saved through faith". Have you read Robertson's Commentary? The subject is the entire opening phrase; of which "through faith" is only a prepositional phrase, and cannot be the object to which "THAT", points. Gender mismatch, grammar contraints, etcetera.

Faith comes from our own HEARTS (Rom10:10).
God does not gift faith, He RECEIVES the faith of those who COME, SEEKING (Heb11:6)
God is just and justifier of he WHO has faith (Rom3:26)
The righteousness of God is revealed from beginning faith to ending faith (Rom1:17)
Begottenness is of God (Jn1:13), but He gives the right of begottenness to those WHO believe/receive Jesus (Jn1:12)

Show me anywhere that "saving-faith" is something God gives, rather than charged to us.

It's not in Eph2:8.
It's not in Rom12:3.
It's not in 1Cor12:9.
It's not in Rom10:10, or 6:17.
It's not in Heb11:6.

Where is it?

 

[moonbeam]

Instead of "working on an answer he will accept", why not just answer him? You don't have to work, he's already told you exactly what it is you need to do: answer Yes, or No to a simple question.

Exactly.....how much "working" does it take to answer with either a three/two letter word......maybe Ben's "working" at avoiding any answer at all.

You just have to choose one of them, and then stick with it. So think carefully before you answer, but don't make it harder than what it is..

I think Ben's stuck between a rock and a hard place...and he knows it...

When a simple yes or no question is answered with an entire treatise, obfuscation abounds.

Exactly...and as you know well enough, Ben specializes in obfuscation.....he behaves like a octopus when cornered, with a great cloud of ink...

It's the only way he can sell his false, man glorifying rubbish.

 

[holyrokker]

He answered your question:

Of course that's what Ex4:21 says. Now --- your turn --- does Ex9:34-35 say "When Pharaoh saw the rain/hail/thunder had ceased, he sinned and hardened his heart and did not let the people go, [/color]just as the Lord HAD SPOKEN through Moses"?

ONE event, Moonbeam.
"I will harden his heart so that he will not let them go."
"Pharaoh sinned and hardened HIS OWN heart and did not let them go."

Do you now agree the two statements are "equivalent"?

You refused to answer his question back to you because you weren't happy with his reply.

Your posts to him and about him insisting a "yes or no" answer are petulant.

 

[cygnusx1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnus
cygnusx1
saved through faith yes , sanctified and justified through faith , yes , but made alive by faith ?

scripture please !

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, undulging th edesires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even WHEN we were dead in our sins, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace THROUGH FAITH have you been saved, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not by works lest anyone boast..."

One would have to propose TWO "savings-by-grace", to deny that "by grace through faith" (verse 8), doesn't simply repeat "by grace" (verse 5). And/or one would have to deny that the parenthetical ("by grace [through faith]") directly modifies "made us alive". Neither of these two positions is credible.

1. "Made-alive", is WHEN we were dead.
2. "Made alive", is "by grace".
3. "By grace", is "by grace through faith".

Thus --- "made alive through faith", is undeniable.

I see , so you are back to dicing and splicing scripture ben , will you ever quit that aweful dispicable habit ?

should I also go through scripture , choose a section , then magnify the part I want , skip the middle bit , then magnify the next part I want then join them together , and say see "here's how I can prove anything from scripture" !!!!!!!!! ....... it is the most rediculous method I have ever seen , worse than all JW's and Moromon mishandeling put together!

we are never made alive by faith , saved by grace through faith yes.

 

[cygnusx1]

New American Standard footnotes, "that salvation". There's only one subject there, Darceri --- "by grace have you been saved through faith". Have you read Robertson's Commentary? The subject is the entire opening phrase; of which "through faith" is only a prepositional phrase, and cannot be the object to which "THAT", points. Gender mismatch, grammar contraints, etcetera.

Faith comes from our own HEARTS (Rom10:10).
God does not gift faith, He RECEIVES the faith of those who COME, SEEKING (Heb11:6)
God is just and justifier of he WHO has faith (Rom3:26)
The righteousness of God is revealed from beginning faith to ending faith (Rom1:17)
Begottenness is of God (Jn1:13), but He gives the right of begottenness to those WHO believe/receive Jesus (Jn1:12)

Show me anywhere that "saving-faith" is something God gives, rather than charged to us.

It's not in Eph2:8.
It's not in Rom12:3.
It's not in 1Cor12:9.
It's not in Rom10:10, or 6:17.
It's not in Heb11:6.

Where is it?

I see , so when the English translation says

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves";


really it means it is of yourself !


what a confused brother you are ben!

 

[nobdysfool]

The subject flowed, by the others' posts. I deflected nothing, I answered the three passages.

Eph2 says "WHEN we were dead, God made us alive --- ...by grace, through faith". It is not "eisegesis" to understand that "through faith", happened "when we were dead" --- or that "we were made alive by His grace, through faith".

Throughout Scripture the faith that receives God's grace (see Rom5:17), comes from man's own heart (see Rom10:10, 6:17).

With sincere respect, it's easy to say "that's the worst case of eisegesis" --- but will you show me specifically how it is?

Ben, look at the title of the thread. THAT is the subject. You've been chasing down this rabbit trail of Eph 2:5 which apparently is your latest pet verse to deny God's Sovereignty and exalt man in salvation. Now you insist that it is our faith which regenerates us from spiritual death to spiritual life. The idea is preposterous. No matter how many times we point out that it is God who does these things, you immediately come back with "by our faith" which places man ahead of God.

All of your false doctrines place man ahead of God, because the overriding theme of all your posts is that it's all about us, not all about God. The sad part it, you will deny this, when everyone else participating here can clearly see it.

With sincere respect, it's easy to say "that's the worst case of eisegesis" --- but will you show me specifically how it is?

What do you think we've been trying to do, Ben???

 

[nobdysfool]

Have you read Robertson's Commentary? The subject is the entire opening phrase; of which "through faith" is only a prepositional phrase, and cannot be the object to which "THAT", points. Gender mismatch, grammar contraints, etcetera.

Ben, you rely on Robertson for two reasons: He says what you want to hear, and you don't know diddly-squat about Greek. We've shown you before that Robertson is wrong in his conclusions on some particular passages. Robertson is not the final authority on Greek syntax, grammar, and usage. I have a good friend, and my own brother, who are both well-versed in Greek, and they absolutely deny Robertson's conclusions. I have two sources which say you're wrong.

The truth is, you've been caught quoting half-verses, splitting thoughts and concepts in two, ignoring context, and rewording scriptures, imposing sequence where none exists, and now you're scrambling to cover your errors, while never admitting you're wrong.

 

[nobdysfool]

Being "born-again", is "becoming-begotten"; is "by receiving Jesus, by believing in His name".

Wrong. Here is part of the problem. You have a fuzzy and broad definition for the new birth, while we Calvinists have a precise and definite definition: the New Birth is Regeneration, the actual act of God whereby He gives life to our dead-in-sins spirits, and makes us alive spiritually (brings us to life). In logical terms, this happens before we believe, before we repent, before we are justified, before we are adopted as sons of God. Without Regeneration, none of the rest is possible. It is God who gives life to us, not our faith.

Now, Ben, you must never again change what we say into something we didn't say by filtering our words through your own definitions. I have given you the Reformed definition of the new birth. it is precisely what we mean by the term. Regeneration = New Birth, and it is an act of God apart from anything we do, and not in response to anything we do.

It is a Sovereign act of God on an individual, as HE Wills.

 

[moonbeam]

He answered your question:

NO.. he did not.

When Ben johnson gets cornered, and believe me he's cornered....he responds but he will not answer.

I have asked him specifically for a Yes or No answer to a simple question seven times now, and he continues to ignore my request...don't you wonder why?

You refused to answer his question back to you because you weren't happy with his reply.

If you read my post 52 which was my initial reply to his response you will find that I said this "I will be able to clarify these points for you when you have answered the previous question...as your response to the first question impacts upon the understanding of these passages of scripture."

However...seeing as you consider my reply to be inconsistent with my own request of Ben for a Yes or No answer...I will comply...for your benifit.

Ben asked "Do you now agree the two statements are "equivalent"?......my answer..No.

Your posts to him and about him insisting a "yes or no" answer are petulant.

I don't feel petulant when making enquiry of Ben's understanding of scripture....but what I do feel is a zeal...for the TRUTH.

A question for you...Did God speak these words as recorded in scripture "I will harden his heart, so that he will" (Exodus 4:21) Yes or No?

 

[holyrokker]

I'm not going to play your silly little game.

 

[Ben johnson]

we are never made alive by faith , saved by grace through faith yes.

How does Eph2:5-8 not say "when you were dead in your sins, God made you alive ...by grace through faith"?

What do you think we've been trying to do, Ben???

Same question to you.

Ben, you rely on Robertson for two reasons: He says what you want to hear, and you don't know diddly-squat about Greek. We've shown you before that Robertson is wrong in his conclusions on some particular passages. Robertson is not the final authority on Greek syntax, grammar, and usage. I have a good friend, and my own brother, who are both well-versed in Greek, and they absolutely deny Robertson's conclusions. I have two sources which say you're wrong.

Are you speaking of Acts13:48? A university professor, Greek Orthodox minister, and a whole thread here (link if you want) agree with Robertson.

But "Robertson" is not the final authority; Scripture is. "By faith", is not a subject; and "that" is neuter, while "faith" is feminine. Just like Scripture in Acts13:46 ("the Jews unelected themselves") forbids the view of "sovereign-election" in verse 48.

Eph2:8 is the only passage thought to say "saving-faith is not of ourselves, but gifted by God". I've cited many other verses which oppose the idea; may we discuss them?

 

[moonbeam]

I'm not going to play your silly little game.

Does the Spirit of Truth live in you?.....if so.....confirm what the LORD spoke.

Or are you going to play school boy games like your mentor Ben johnstone?

 

[moonbeam]

But "Robertson" is not the final authority; Scripture is.

Exactly.

Ben....Did God speak these words as recordered in Scripture "I will harden his heart, so that he will" (Exodus 4:21)

Yes or No?

 

[Rick Otto]

Does God ordain sins of men? Many Calvinists say “yes”. How can a perfect God, who hates sin, desire that men DO sin? Calvinists say “that God may be glorified”. God is glorified by sin-that-He-hates?

In 1Kings22, ~
In Exodus 4:21 ~
In Genesis 50:20 ~
None of these verses establish that "God ordains the sins of men".

How 'bout this one:
Ac 2:23 - Show Context Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Here we have men performing God's will with their own wicked intent.
Their sin of deicide is according to His plan.

Play this track while reading Ben's reply:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhWmc43Z4FM

(love ya, Ben)

 

[cygnusx1]

How does Eph2:5-8 not say "when you were dead in your sins, God made you alive ...by grace through faith"?

still editing God's word ben ..........