God loves everyone?

BNR32FAN

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I’m just tired of these false arguments. I’ve been doing this for awhile, and sometimes I just burn out.

How can a person grieve the Holy Spirit if He is in control? These are valid questions and it seems like you pass them off without any consideration. Like your in either two modes, either refute mode or disregard mode. When your in refute mode you never give a detailed answer. When your answer brings up another question you disregard it. You start these controversial discussions and then when you get backed into a corner you freeze up. Like the 14 questions I said Calvinists can’t answer. You gave vague answers and when I called you out on that you said if I wanted a more in depth answer I should’ve asked. So I reposted the questions along with your original answers and asked you to elaborate and you wouldn’t. Nobody else will address those questions either. You were getting tired of seeing those questions because I posted them several times and you were the only one to at least acknowledged them. I don’t know maybe 14 is too much maybe I should try to split them up. I’ve answered every question I’ve been asked. I’m not dodging anything. It just seems so strange to me that while we are both Christians we have almost complete opposite beliefs on a number of topics. God bless you brother and please forgive me if I have offended you. I admit our debate has frustrated me at times and I was less than courteous to say the least. Sometimes I just don’t know how to contain myself on these matters.
 
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Hammster

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How can a person grieve the Holy Spirit if He is in control? These are valid questions and it seems like you pass them off without any consideration. Like your in either two modes, either refute mode or disregard mode. When your in refute mode you never give a detailed answer. When your answer brings up another question you disregard it. You start these controversial discussions and then when you get backed into a corner you freeze up. Like the 14 questions I said Calvinists can’t answer. You gave vague answers and when I called you out on that you said if I wanted a more in depth answer I should’ve asked. So I reposted the questions along with your original answers and asked you to elaborate and you wouldn’t. Nobody else will address those questions either. You were getting tired of seeing those questions because I posted them several times and you were the only one to at least acknowledged them. I don’t know maybe 14 is too much maybe I should try to split them up. I’ve answered every question I’ve been asked. I’m not dodging anything. It just seems so strange to me that while we are both Christians we have almost complete opposite beliefs on a number of topics. God bless you brother and please forgive me if I have offended you. I admit our debate has frustrated me at times and I was less than courteous to say the least. Sometimes I just don’t know how to contain myself on these matters.
I apologize for the short response. Seeing “robots” is akin to you hearing about Mary worship. After awhile, it just wears you down.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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For those that died in the Flood, we know with certainty there was a new chance given (after mortal death): 1 Peter 3:19-20. Some even think this is only an example group, to illustrate that all never having heard the gospel may get to hear it in that situation, as a spirit in prison, and respond (or not) individually. Also for even more context, consider how Christ spoke of it being easier for some cities like Sodom in the Day of Judgement than for villages/cities that rejected Him in person during His teaching time. (Matthew 10:15).
There is no second chance.
1pet3:19-20 does not teach that the spirits in prison had another chance to believe.
The only thing that happens after mortal death is the judgment.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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How can a person grieve the Holy Spirit if He is in control? These are valid questions and it seems like you pass them off without any consideration. Like your in either two modes, either refute mode or disregard mode. When your in refute mode you never give a detailed answer. When your answer brings up another question you disregard it. You start these controversial discussions and then when you get backed into a corner you freeze up. Like the 14 questions I said Calvinists can’t answer. You gave vague answers and when I called you out on that you said if I wanted a more in depth answer I should’ve asked. So I reposted the questions along with your original answers and asked you to elaborate and you wouldn’t. Nobody else will address those questions either. You were getting tired of seeing those questions because I posted them several times and you were the only one to at least acknowledged them. I don’t know maybe 14 is too much maybe I should try to split them up. I’ve answered every question I’ve been asked. I’m not dodging anything. It just seems so strange to me that while we are both Christians we have almost complete opposite beliefs on a number of topics. God bless you brother and please forgive me if I have offended you. I admit our debate has frustrated me at times and I was less than courteous to say the least. Sometimes I just don’t know how to contain myself on these matters.

If you want answers to your questions other than what you have been given here, I will offer some in about 25 minutes.
 
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BNR32FAN

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If you want answers to your questions other than what you have been given here, I will offer some in about 25 minutes.

Thanks


If God’s election is true then...


1. According to John 3:18 why are we judged according to whether or not we believe if we are incapable of believing unless God has chosen us?


2. Wouldn’t that ultimately make God responsible for someone’s unbelief if He has not enabled them to believe?


3. Wouldn’t it be unjust for God to judge someone according to whether or not they believe if He has created them as being incapable of believing and has not enabled them to do so?


4. Why did Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe if they are incapable of believing if they are not chosen by God and are incapable of failing to believe if they are chosen by God?


5. According to 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 God wants everyone to repent and be saved and none to perish. So why would He only elect certain people to be saved and condemn all others giving them no chance for salvation?


6. According to John 3:16-17 God loved the world so much that He sent His Son so the world might be saved through Him, so why would Our loving God only elect certain people for salvation condemning all others?


7. If God’s election is true then eternal security must also be true because according to the doctrine of God’s elect they cannot be chosen and lose their salvation. So according to John 15:2 how can branches who are in Christ be cut off from the vine which is Christ?


8. Why did Jesus say to His 11 faithful apostles “abide in Me” even explaining to them the consequences of failing to abide which results in the loss of salvation if they are incapable of failing to abide?


9. In Ephesians 2 Paul is addressing children of God as so stated throughout the chapter, so why does he warn these same children of God in Ephesians 5:1-5 of living a sinful way of life that will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which results in them having no inheritance in the kingdom of God?


10. Romans 11 Paul warns the Gentiles who have been grafted in of being cut off for unbelief even saying they can be grafted back in if they repent. Why would anyone be grafted in if they are not chosen by God and will fall from grace?


11. Romans 6:15-16 How can those who are under grace (God’s elect) sin to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death?


12. If they are incapable of sinning to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death what is the purpose of Paul’s statement? Why would he say this if those who are under grace are incapable of becoming slaves to satan and why would he say this to anyone who is not elected by God if they are condemned because they are incapable of being slaves to God?


13. Why did Jesus say “when the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself”?


14. Why does Paul say in Colossians 1:23 that they must “continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel” in order to be presented Holy and blameless without reproach if they are already reconciled to God and are incapable of failing to continue in the faith?


“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”

Colossians 1:21-23 NASB
 
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Halbhh

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There is no second chance.
1pet3:19-20 does not teach that the spirits in prison had another chance to believe.
The only thing that happens after mortal death is the judgment.
That's not for us to say. It's for Him to say.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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"BNR32FAN,

No problem we are all here to learn about our Lord and Savior in order that we can serve Him here and now. Hammster gave good answers but i suspect he will save the detailed answers when he believes you are really looking for that kind of answer.
I will answer any sincere questions truthfully, but perhaps you might not like the answers given.


If God’s election is true then...

Election is a biblical doctrine so there is no "if".
There are 4 distinct kinds of election mentioned in Scripture. I believe however you are speaking of unconditional election to salvation...that is a true doctrine and a great blessing to the Church.


1. According to John 3:18 why are we judged according to whether or not we believe if we are incapable of believing unless God has chosen us?


All men everywhere are indeed responsible to worship and obey God. They are responsible 100%

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned
:

For those who believe, everyone believing, there is no more condemnation

Romans 8 King James Version (KJV)
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Men are born children of wrath, believing in Jesus that condemnation is removed...those who do not believe remain in the realm of SIN AND DEATH
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The unbeliever is still under the law of sin and death, do you see the contrast in verse 1, and verse 2?

These verses describe the two men who are on earth, believers and unbelievers


2. Wouldn’t that ultimately make God responsible for someone’s unbelief if He has not enabled them to believe?


No, of course not. God is not responsible for sin and unbelief of rebellious men.
Adams fall was universal, all died in Adam. they are not neutral.
God is not obligated to save anyone, apart from the Covenant of Redemption.
That is why it is called mercy when any of us believe.


3. Wouldn’t it be unjust for God to judge someone according to whether or not they believe if He has created them as being incapable of believing and has not enabled them to do so?

Sometimes when I or others who believe in the doctrines of grace answer, we are accused of being rude, or arrogant. Most times it is because we give an "unfiltered answer.
Here is one such answer;
I do not care what you believe, or what I believe. What matters is what does the scripture declare?

Deut.4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment:
a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.


Every Christian must start with clear declarations of who our Great God is.
God is never unjust...it is not possible. That means every other verse cannot contradict this truth anywhere in the bible, agreed?


4. Why did Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe

God has planned to save everyone believing, jn3:16. The Apostles could not make or convince anyone to believe. They were only responsible to preach the truth and remove some obstacles when they could. The results belong to God who saves.

staytuned for part2;
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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pt2;
if they are incapable of believing if they are not chosen by God and are incapable of failing to believe if they are chosen by God?

The command to repent and believe goes to all sinners who hear the message.
No man can come to Jesus in and of themselves.
That is the result of the fall. They turn the truth of God into a lie. They do it, not God, they love sin rather than truth.Sinners create other sinners...


if you start at vs 1-2, it gives an explanation for who it is speaking of;

1 Timothy 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

Follow now...who are the all men he is saying should be prayed for?
Who did he have in mind?


2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

He is praying even for rulers so that we can live a quiet and peaceable life.
Even they can be saved.


and 2 Peter 3:9 God wants everyone to repent and be saved and none to perish
.

No verse in the bible says any such thing. You and others leave out ,
the To-usward.
This whole section is teaching that God is long suffering with the wicked, until all the elect are saved. Every person spoken of here, is speakingb of how God has determined, that not one of these spoken of will be lost, [boulamai] decreed destined and purposed] read to the end of this chapter, the longsuffering leads to salvation.

So why would He only elect certain people to be saved and condemn all others giving them no chance for salvation?

God who is perfectly Holy and Wise is going to save all that is possible for Him to save. I do not question His infinite wisdom. I trust His Holy , Wise plan. Do you?
he cannot save one more or one less, or His wisdom and plan which are perfect are called into question by rebel sinners.


6. According to John 3:16-17 God loved the world so much that He sent His Son so the world might be saved through Him, so why would Our loving God only elect certain people for salvation condemning all others?

The giving of the perfectly Holy Son is the Love of God exalted to the highest height.His purpose was planned from eternity past, He did not leave out any single detail of it[eph3:9-11]

All were already condemned in Adam, he elects a multitude of condemned sinners to be drawn into saving Union with Christ.


7. If God’s election is true then eternal security must also be true because according to the doctrine of God’s elect they cannot be chosen and lose their salvation.

Biblical salvation is certain because Jesus is both mediator and surety
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;


So according to John 15:2 how can branches who are in Christ be cut off from the vine which is Christ?
This is not dealing with salvation but rather sanctification.

8. Why did Jesus say to His 11 faithful apostles “abide in Me” even explaining to them the consequences of failing to abide which results in the loss of salvation if they are incapable of failing to abide?
God uses means, including warnings, discipline, direct commands and instructions, persecution , to conform us to the image of the Son.

9. In Ephesians 2 Paul is addressing children of God as so stated throughout the chapter, so why does he warn these same children of God in Ephesians 5:1-5 of living a sinful way of life that will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which results in them having no inheritance in the kingdom of God?
He always tells believers who they are IN Christ before telling them what to do and how to live.

10. Romans 11 Paul warns the Gentiles who have been grafted in of being cut off for unbelief even saying they can be grafted back in if they repent. Why would anyone be grafted in if they are not chosen by God and will fall from grace?

Gentiles are not to assume anything. Those jews who were broken off in unbelief , perished. God is able in future times to graft believing israelites back into the promises.

11. Romans 6:15-16 How can those who are under grace (God’s elect) sin to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death?
Saved persons do not become unsaved. Not possible.
Professed believers who are not really saved can fall away from a false profession.


12. If they are incapable of sinning to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death what is the purpose of Paul’s statement? Why would he say this if those who are under grace are incapable of becoming slaves to satan and why would he say this to anyone who is not elected by God if they are condemned because they are incapable of being slaves to God?

The passage does not mention Satan! why do you insert it? it is speaking of believers indwelt by the Spirit, live like it.

13. Why did Jesus say “when the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself”?

he was announcing to His Jewish audience that the gospel was going worldwide, as isa.40-66 gentiles flood in;

54 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord.

2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;

3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

14. Why does Paul say in Colossians 1:23 that they must “continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel” in order to be presented Holy and blameless without reproach if they are already reconciled to God and are incapable of failing to continue in the faith?
Because continuance in the faith , is evidence of the faith,



And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”

If indeed! it is certain, not contingent.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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That's not for us to say. It's for Him to say.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
We are to understand the passage. It is teaching that the Spirit preached to them in Noahs day through Noahs life, example, and words
 
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Halbhh

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We are to understand the passage. It is teaching that the Spirit preached to them in Noahs day through Noahs life, example, and words
The key to hearing the Word is to not think of ourselves, our doctrines, as the Teacher, but to instead be the student, and not talk over the Word, but instead to humbly listen, expecting to learn, always (even things we've read before several times). It's a humble thing, to listen, after we feel we've learned so much already.... But humbleness is required of us.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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The key to hearing the Word is to not think of ourselves, our doctrines, as the Teacher, but to instead be the student, and not talk over the Word, but instead to humbly listen, expecting to learn, always (even things we've read before several times). It's a humble thing, to listen, after we feel we've learned so much already.... But humbleness is required of us.
Reading the word with understanding is not talking over it.
There is no second chance.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
 
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ilovejcsog

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I can't believe that he doesn't. When I think how much he loves us I know that no matter what we might do that is not to his liking he will still love us. That is not to say he would keep us from going to hell if that is our choice. I think he would grieve but still love us. God is love, how could he not?
 
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Hammster

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I can't believe that he doesn't. When I think how much he loves us I know that no matter what we might do that is not to his liking he will still love us. That is not to say he would keep us from going to hell if that is our choice. I think he would grieve but still love us. God is love, how could he not?
Why, if He loves us so much, can’t He stop us from going to hell?
 
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A_Thinker

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No, of course not. God is not responsible for sin and unbelief of rebellious men.
So ... how are men rebellious ... if they are exactly who God created them to be ?

P.S. How can a man rebel ... if he has no CHOICE ?
 
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Hammster

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Did you FORCE your wife to marry you .... or did she CHOOSE ?
That doesn’t answer my question. The question has to do with an all-loving God who has the power and authority to not send someone to hell. If you want to use an analogy, how about this? If you had a neighbor that you didn’t get along with, but you saw his two-year-old about to walk into the street, would you rush over and save her? You wouldn’t be bringing her into your home, but you’d make sure that she didn’t suffer.
 
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That doesn’t answer my question. The question has to do with an all-loving God who has the power and authority to not send someone to hell. If you want to use an analogy, how about this? If you had a neighbor that you didn’t get along with, but you saw his two-year-old about to walk into the street, would you rush over and save her? You wouldn’t be bringing her into your home, but you’d make sure that she didn’t suffer.
You analogy doesn't work ... because, from a human standpoint, nearly all, if not all, persons would desire to RESCUED from the type of situation you described.

It is made very clear in scripture that such is not the case when it comes to following God. Some CHOOSE to LOVE God ... and some don't ...

The greatest commandment is to ... LOVE God ...

How can we truly LOVE God ... if we have no choice in he matter ?
 
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