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God is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9) since he will divide the sheep and goats.

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Stonehaven, Apr 2, 2018.

  1. Stonehaven

    Stonehaven New Member

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    2 Peter 3:9 - The LORD is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    Now, it is strictly untrue that GOD IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH as a standalone sentence by itself - Since he will divide the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:33), disavow all the false prophets and Faux Christians (Matthew 7:21, 23), and curse all the evil ones on the day of Judgement (Matthew 25:41).

    As indeed, it is only true that God is not willing for anybody to perish as long as they will honour his Covenant, which is the new covenant of Christ mentioned in Isaiah 24:5.

    That he does not want anyone to perish IS WHOLLY CONTINGENT ON THEIR WILLINGNESS TO HONOUR HIS COVENANT - Since most of human life will be extinguished at the time of the Great Tribulation, because they have "broken the everlasting covenant", which is the new covenant of Christ in Isaiah 24:5-6.

    That God is not willing for anybody to perish is ENTIRELY CONDITIONAL on their willingness to honour his Covenant - Since, V6 says that God will curse and punish all of them at the time of the Tribulation, because they have "broken the Covenant that will stand forever".

    Therefore, it is patently false to assume that there are no conditions attached to 2 Peter 3:9 - Since, God's grace is wholly contingent on their willingness to abide by his Covenant = Luke 10:28, John 11:25-26 and Romans 10:9.

    Discuss.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
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  2. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I was with you until this point.

    I tend to agree with your conclusion, ... but you have effectively dampened any real discussion of your point ... by labeling anyone who does not agree as belonging to Satan.

    For over 2,000 years, men and women of good heart and devotion to God have debated doctrinal topics far more significant than the one that you raised without consigning each other to hell.

    If you truly want discussion, you will have to be more open to the unfettered thoughts of your brethren.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
  3. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    "will be" = is "certain to be"!!...no future tense !!

    Acts 2:21
    ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

    Acts 16:31[ The Jailer Converted ] They said,
    “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

    Romans 10:9
    that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord,
    and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

    Do not search forever or try on your own to keep the "Law" AND/OR conditional COVENANTS
    Find the truth in the Bible NOW!
    Focus on: What must I do to be spiritually changed...saved FROM ETERNAL SEPARATION FROM GOD!?!
    Spiritually discern John 3 + Ephesians FIRST!
    then Read ALL written by John the Elder: Gospel, Letters,Revelation.

    Being saved and becoming a "child of God" (believer) is Man's spiritual CHOICE:

    1 Chronicles 28:9...King David to his son:
    “As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.
    If you seek Him, He will let you find Him;
    but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

    Deuteronomy 30:19
    I call heaven and earth to witness against you today,
    that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse.
    So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

    Revelation 3:20
    Behold, I stand at the door and knock;
    if anyone hears My voice and opens the door,
    I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

    Man's spirit must ACCEPT the spiritual calling/drawing of God!

    John 1:12,14 (NIV)
    Yet to all who received him,
    to those who believed in his name,
    he gave the right to become "children of God"...(SAVED!)
    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, (Jesus)who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    John 6:44
    No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me DRAWS him;
    and I will raise him up on the last day.

    John 14:6 Jesus said to him, (enquiring disciples)
    "I am the way, and the truth, and the life;
    no one comes to the Father but THROUGH Me.

    John 5:24 (all NASB)...(Jesus:)"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life,
    and does not come into judgment, but "has passed" out of death into life.(NOW!)

    1 John 3:14..We (believers) know that we "have passed" out of death into life..(NOW!)

    Luke 7:50...And He said to the woman (CAUGHT IN SIN), "Your faith "has" "saved" you; go in peace." (NOW!)

    Ephesians 2: 4-5,8-10
    4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
    5 MADE US ALIVE with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions
    —it is by grace (unmerited Love/Mercy/favor) you have been saved.
    8 For by GRACE (Love/Mercy) you have been SAVED through FAITH;
    and that (FAITH/BELIEF) not of yourselves,
    it is the (spiritual) GIFT of God;
    9 NOT as a result of WORKS, so that no one may boast.
    10 For we are His workmanship,
    created in Christ Jesus for good works,
    which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


    LOOK FOR: Save/Salvation in your Bible searches!
    Learn about "substitutionary atonement"...What Jesus the Christ, the Divine Messiah, the God-Man did FOR you!


    1 Peter 3:18
    For Christ died FOR (ALL) sins once FOR ALL (MANKIND) (FOR ALL time),
    the righteous (Jesus)
    FOR the unrighteous (Mankind),
    to bring you to God. (reconciliation / salvation)
    He was put to death in the body(/Soul on the Cross)
    but made alive by the Spirit, (resurrection, appearances, ascension)
     
  4. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    The passage just supports the truth that God won't override our wills to save us. God desires that none should perish; damnation is not His will for anyone. But our own acts, by which we'll be judged, reflect our choice, and so are the basis for our salvation or our damnation.
     
  5. Stonehaven

    Stonehaven New Member

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    Still, the fact remains that Jesus will divide the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:33), disavow those who claimed to be "Christian" (Matthew 7:21-23), and cursing evil doers (Matthew 25:41) is simply a different way to say that God is intent on all those people perishing.

    Who else, but God would send all those people to hell, and he wouldn't do it unless he wanted?

    In other words, he wants all the Wicked people to perish, since it couldn't possibly happen without his volition.

    God will destroy them because he wants them destroyed - Since they have "broken the Covenant that will last forever" in Isaiah 24:5-6.

    God's willingness to destroy them is wholly contingent on their choice to abide by his covenant, or not to abide by it. Luke 10:28

    Without God's willingness to destroy them, such a scale of death and destruction could never be seen as foretold in Isaiah 24.

    This could never happen without his willingness to destroy them.

    But you seem to suggest that such a death and destruction would only be a reluctant choice and last resort.

    Be that as it may, the "reluctant last resort" could never happen at all, unless he wanted them destroyed.

    The same logic as saying that you have killed somebody to protect loved ones, but you couldn't possibly do it unless you wanted.

    Whichever way you argue this point you would never get away from the fact that God couldn't possibly do it without his willingness to do it.

    There's no way that you could possibly kill that many people, unless you wanted them dead. Isaiah 24:6, Matthew 22:14

    However reluctant or slight, there must be some element of willingness on his part to destroy them in the first place.

    Lastly, how is it possible for God to "Predestine more than one half of his Creation to be vessels of wrath" (Matthew 7:13-14, 22:14, Romans 9:22) unless he wanted all of them destroyed from the outset - Predestination by way of genetic and environmental predispositions, as opposed to Calvinism and outright failure due to the absence of freewill - As based on the law of probability the "vessels of wrath" are more than likely to fail (his Judgement), although nothing is ever certain, nor one hundred percent guaranteed, but their failure is almost certain?

    PS. I think that your judgement is clouded by wishful thinking, which is a fallacy of reasoning. Since wishful thinking is always an incorrect premise to begin an argument.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
  6. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    Stonehaven: Your discenment and application of Matthew 24 is in error.

    You either BELIEVE in the Divine Person of Jesus the Christ, and His completed works, trust Him, and act upon (FOLLOW) your belief in His words, instructions, counsel, and commandments -... or you don't

    1. you either are BELIEVERS (sheep) or UNBELIEVERS (goats) when spiritually called / drawn by God:

    A. ACCEPT GRACE: BELIEVE (spirit-led Faith) in Jesus the Christ, the Divine Messiah AND what he DID for you...THEN..,
    FOLLOW him as example by trusting Him, obeying Him and His words, instructions, counsel, and commandmentsGuided by the permanently indwelling God the Holy Spirit.

    B.- or you don't...you REJECT GOD'S GRACE.

    Matthew 25 (NOT 24) does give many human examples of how Man should treat Man,
    but keeping one nor all of them does not save.
    In context, Matthew 25 deals with the prophecy of Jesus' Judgment of the NATIONS (ethnos ~=societies)...
    NOT Judgment of individual spirits by their spiritual works.

    Jesus' Prophecy of Future Judgment of the NATIONS (ethnos = societies)) by the Reigning KING on His Throne...

    Matthew 25: 31-46 (NASB)
    “But when the "Son of Man" comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. (to JUDGE!)
    All the NATIONS (ethnos) will be gathered before Him; ...(ethnos = societies, peoples)
    and He will separate them (NATIONS (ethnos)) from one another,
    as the shepherd separates the sheep (believing NATIONS) from the goats; (UNbelieving NATIONS)
    and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
    41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, (unbelieving societies / "Nations" = goats)
    ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the ETERNAL FIRE which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. ('lake of fire" in Revelation?)...
    46 These will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, (unbelieving societies / "Nations" = goats)
    but the righteous (Nations of believers = sheep) into ETERNAL (SPIRITUAL) LIFE.”

    ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not DO it to one of the least of these, you did not DO it to Me.’
    aka
    "If you did not serve your fellow man, you did not serve Me."

    Back up a Chapter!

    Matthew 24:9
    “Then they will deliver you (believers) to tribulation, and will kill you,
    and you will be hated by all NATIONS because of My name.

    Matthew 24:14
    This gospel of the kingdom (Divine Messiah has come!) shall be preached in the whole world
    as a testimony to all the NATIONS , and THEN "the end" (of the ages) will come.

    a. JUDGMENT of the NATIONS ...("ethnos=PEOPLES=societies = sheep/goats) ...Psalm 9:19 ; Matthew 25: 31-36 f

    b. JUDGMENT of the Believers' Works...1 Corinthians 3: 10-15 ; 2 Corinthians 5 : 6-10

    c. The GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT...sentencing of unbelievers...Revelation 20: 11-15 (NASB)

    d. BELIEVING SURVIVORS of the GREAT TRIBULATION...Revelation 7:9-17

    e. JUDGMENT of Fallen Spirits: Revelation 20:1-10

    f. JUDGMENT of the NATION Israel....the Major Prophets + Matthew 19:27-30 (NASB)

    John 5:24
    “Truly, truly, I say to you,
    he who hears My word,
    and believes Him who sent Me,
    has eternal life, and
    does not come into JUDGMENT, (OF SPIRITUAL POSITION)
    but has passed out of death into life.
     
  7. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    The NEW COVENANT is both unilateral and unconditional...bound by the Holy blood of Jesus.

    Jesus the God-Man fulfilled the Mosaic Law in his coming and ministry,
    He clarified, corrected, added, subtracted,...etc

    The NEW Covenant!...substitutionary atonement.

    Matthew 26:28
    for this is My blood of the (NEW) covenant, which is poured out FOR many FOR forgiveness of sins.
    26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples,
    and said, “Take, eat; this is (represents) My body.”

    Mark 14:24
    And He said to them, “This is My blood of the (NEW) covenant, which is poured out FOR many.
    22 While they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them,
    and said, “Take it; this is (represents) My body.”

    Luke 22:20
    And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying,
    “This cup which is poured out FOR you is the NEW covenant IN My blood.

    1 Corinthians 11:25
    In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying,
    “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

    Hebrews 9:15
    For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant,
    so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant,
    those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    Hebrews 12:24
    and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
     
  8. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Whatever, I'm not the one who's refuting the plain language of 2 Peter 2:9. The point is that God loves man lavishly, dying for us while we were yet sinners. He would prefer, to put it mildly, that we all turn, that we all will as He does. But ultimately evil is rightfully opposed, and isn't allowed to coexist with good forever. He condemns no one; those who who choose evil have already condemned themselves. His judgment is based on that.
     
  9. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    God wants all men to accept His Spiritual Drawing/Calling to salvation.

    God is perfectly LOVING / MERCIFUL / GRACE-full
    ...but also perfectly JUST / rendering perfect JUDGMENTS.
    Jesus the God-Man died FOR the sins/Men... ALL men ALL sins for ALL time....substitutionary atonement.
    God calls / draws ALL of Mankind to accept or reject His gracious provisions and gift:
    undeserved GRACE / LOVE through spirit-led FAITH / BELIEF in:
    Jesus the God-Man: substute for and savior from sin.
    Some use their spiritual gift of "free will" to ACCEPT unto salvation.
    Some don't.
    God knows the spirit of ALL men, and FORE-KNOWS (NOT pre-determines!) who will be saved.
    If you truly seek Him, He will let you find Him. BUT... if you betray Him, He will reject you forever.

    2 Peter 3:9...>The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,
    not wishing for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance. (turn to God for salvation)

    1 Timothy 4: 9-10...>Paul's advice: A Good Minister’s Discipline
    It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance.
    For it is for this (discipline) we labor and strive,
    because we have fixed our hope on the living God,
    who is the Savior of ALL MEN, (offers salvation to)
    especially of believers.(sanctification)

    "the Savior"... Greek 4990 ...soter ~= deliverer, preserver

    "of believers."...Greek 4103 ... pistos ~=trusty, faithful...believing, confiding, trusting
    one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation.

    John 12:23-26...>To Believers: FOLLOW...serve
    And Jesus answered them, (followers) saying,
    “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
    Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone;
    but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
    He who loves his (mortal) life loses it,
    and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.(spiritual)
    If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me;
    and where I am, there My servant will be also;
    if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him. (believer)...

    John 12: 30-33...>Jesus Foretells His Death to UN-believers
    Jesus answered (crowds) and said,
    “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.Now judgment is upon this world;
    now the ruler of this world WILL BE cast out.(devil)
    And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN to Myself.”
    But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. (crucifixion)

    ALL are DRAWN / CALLED by God. SPIRITUALLY: Few ACCEPT the LIGHT. Many REJECT the LIGHT.

    John 12: 35-3...>Jesus DRAWS UN-believers
    “For a little while longer the Light is among you.
    Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes.
    While you have the Light, believe in the Light,
    so that you may become sons of Light.” (believer)
     
  10. Gr8Grace

    Gr8Grace Well-Known Member

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    You do understand that Christ paid for ALL sin right? Even the unbelievers sin. Sin is no longer the issue with mankind. The issue is the Son. And the Son died for ALL sin. Not some sin but ALL sin.

    He is so willing that none perish, that he died for ALL sin. Satan understands this all to well, so he has deceived most of mankind into thinking that they can somehow be righteous enough,good enough,clean up their lives enough to save themselves.

    What He didn't die for is," I am good enough. I have been good and certainly better than that other guy. My righteousness outweighs my unrighteousness. I did good works that Jesus did."

    Since Christ died for ALL sin, unbelievers will be judged according to their self righteous DEEDS/WORKS....

    Rev 20:12~~New American Standard Bible
    And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

    Isaiah 64:6~~New American Standard Bible
    For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
     
  11. Stonehaven

    Stonehaven New Member

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    The plain language itself doesn't prove that 2 Peter 3:9 is "Universally true" - Since there are other verses which effectively say that "God (Still) wants some people to perish"; namely, the division of sheep and goats (Matthew 25:33), God's disavowing those who have claimed to be "Christian" (Matthew 7:21, 23), God's cursing and condemnation of those "Christians" who refused to serve Christ (Matthew 25:41-46), and God's Judgement of the earth (Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 24:5-6, Revelation 20:9).

    Such a "logical contradiction" must be seen as an insoluble problem, if indeed it is a contradiction at all

    But there is no contradiction whatsoever if we understood that 2 Peter 3:9 cannot be "Universally true", but it's Only true under specific conditions, as long as Christians will abide by the new covenant of Christ.

    Otherwise, 2 Peter 3:9 is not true, but "God (Still) wants some people to perish instead", if indeed they have broken His covenant -----> Isaiah 24:5-6 -----> God will curse, punish and destroy all those people who have "Broken the everlasting covenant".

    Therefore, the plain language of 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't mean that this is "Universally true", but it's Only true under specific conditions.

    That the Covenant means more to God than the lives of all those people who are wasted goes without saying, and this is indisputable.

    John 3:16 says that "God has loved the world sufficiently to sacrifice his only begotten Son", but it doesn't mean that God loves all people equally - Since we are constantly reminded that God loved Jacob more than Esau (Malachi 1:1-3, Romans 9:13), which means that "God (Still) loves some people more than others", as a general rule.

    Since God foreknew all those who are saved (Matthew 25:34, Romans 9:23) or lost (Romans 9:22, Revelation 13:8), one must conclude that He sent Jesus Only to save those who would be saved, but he Never sacrificed his Son to save those who hate him.

    The word "lavish" implies that God's love of humankind is "exceedingly great", but there is no mention of this word in John 3:16.

    Therefore, this is just your own opinion, which has no Scriptural basis whatsoever.

    That "good and evil are not allowed to coexist forever" is not mentioned anywhere at all in the Bible.

    Therefore, this concoction and supposition have no Scriptural basis whatsoever.

    But on the contrary, God's motive to destroy all those people is clearly stated in Isaiah 24:5-6 - Since they have "Broken the everlasting covenant", which is also the new covenant of Christ.

    Therefore, the Covenant means more to God than the lives of all those people who are wasted -----> Isaiah 24:5-6.

    Without being God, you have presumed to know the heart and mind of God, and to know his motive to destroy all those people.

    You seemed to suggest that "God would reluctantly destroy all those people, despite his boundless love for them" - Which itself is a contradiction - But God does not love those who hate him, nor does he love those who have "Broken his covenant" -----> Isaiah 24:5-6.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
  12. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    The point is that God does not want them to break his covenant.
    No, that "opinion" just comes with the knowledge of God, something promised to us as Jesus reveals Him, along with the witness of Him on the cross and what that means in terms of His love for humankind. He knows every hair on our head. He knows all because He created all; we are His handiwork and everything God created is good.
    Nonsense, that's the meaning of separating the wheat from the chaff, the sheep from the goats, and the fact that ultimately every tear shall be wiped away. Christianity 101.
    We're all called to know God, that's the very purpose of our lives in fact, the reason Jesus came. And the more we know Him the more we love Him BTW; can't be helped.
    God desires none to hate Him; that's the ultimate in foolish pride. But He allows us to go our way, to destroy ourselves.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
  13. Stonehaven

    Stonehaven New Member

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    Agreed.

    Absolutely.
     
  14. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    Literalist insanity.

    If God doesn't want any to perish, all he has to do is not cause them to perish.
     
  15. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    If God didn't want Adam to eat of the fruit of the tree, all He had to do was prevent him from eating it. The whole message of our faith is simple. Free will allows man to sin and so distance himself from God. We can remain in that state, or we can turn back to Him again, with His help. But from Adam on He does not force His creation to align itself with His will.
     
  16. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    So to get God off the hook for injustice, you have to say that people choose eternal torment! How about this option: you have a screwed up theology!
     
  17. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    So the alternative, if you believe in God at all, would be the perfectly "sane" theology that tells us that God created beings to be eternally tormented. But then, while we'd have a God that we can still believe in, He wouldn't be a God worthy of much more than hatred, suspicion, and mistrust. We couldn't even know if heaven would be any better than hell with such a god.

    In historic Christianity man always chooses what he wants, what he perceives to be the greatest good. He may believe that being apart from God is better than to be with Him; he may reject love in favor of cold selfish, pride; he may favor evil IOW. But if evil exists at all due to the abuse of free will (a truth we observe daily in this world), then evil can be chosen eternally as well. Otherwise God would've prevented it from the beginning.
     
  18. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    Who created the two options to begin with: bliss or torment! According to screwed up theology, God did.
     
  19. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    God created free will. Free will gives us the choice to make life blissful or otherwise, to head for that which is truly of value, leading to eternal bliss, or to those worthless things, which promise happiness but ultimately fail in delivering. Either way bliss and torment already exist in this world, in ourselves. So what's your perfectly sound, non-screwed up theology?
     
  20. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    So, in a finite period of time, with incomplete knowledge and corrupted minds, humans can earn, nay CHOOSE infinite torment?! These are not 'just weights.'
     
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