God is NOT a liar. He will KEEP every promise He ever made.

[Biblewriter]

I am not the one claiming God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary.

That claim comes directly from the Jesuit book found in the link below.
See page 52 of Irving's Preliminary Dicourse, Part II. (Time 7:11 in the video.)

Genesis of Dispensational Theology:

You are the one that is accusing God of having lied when He made the MANY promises I quoted in the OP which UNQUESTIONABLY have not yet been fulfilled.

The fact that a book that almost none of us have ever read says what we can PROVE is true is of zero significance. It is a simple lie to even try to pretend that most of these explicitly stated promises have EVER been kept.

 

[Biblewriter]

That land promise was fulfilled under Solomon (1 Kings 4:21, 1 Kings 4:24-25).

On what authority does he say it will be fulfilled again?

On the authority of the explicit statements of Ezekiel 36:1-10, Ezekiel 47:13-20, and all of Ezekiel 48, among other places.

 

[BABerean2]

The fact that a book that almost none of us have ever read says what we can PROVE is true is of zero significance. It is a simple lie to even try to pretend that most of these explicitly stated promises have EVER been kept.

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.


Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


One Gospel, One New Covenant Church, One People of God


.

 

[Biblewriter]

You are way too aggressive.anything you say serves no point because of how aggressive you are.youre going to wind up offending anybody before you teach them

YOU invade a forum dedicated to the discussion of Dispensationalism and tell us WE are teaching false doctrine, and you LIE about where this doctrine came from, and THEN you have the GALL to accuse US of being aggressive?

 

[Biblewriter]

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.


Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


One Gospel, One New Covenant Church, One People of God


.

Just tell me when absolutely all of “the house of Israel” again inhabited “the mountains of Israel” AFTER the time of EZEKIEL. You KNOW that has NEVER happened. And you are LYING when you even try to pretend that it HAS happened.

No one needs to tell you that, after the time all God’s first promises had been fulfilled, HE cast them out of that land. And you KNOW that absolutely all of them have NEVER returned. So you are LYING when you try to pretend that Ezekiel 37’s promise of a COMPLETE return was EVER kept.

YOU also KNOW that, after the time of Ezekiel, the nation of Israel NEVER enjoyed the borders so explicitly specified in Ezekiel 47:13-20. And you personally KNOW that the land was NEVER divided among the twelve tribes of Israel in the way so specifically specified in Ezekiel 48. This is not opinion. It is HARD FACT that you personally KNOW to be true. So you are LYING when you try to pretend that these promises were EVER kept.

 

[BABerean2]

So you are LYING when you try to pretend that Ezekiel 37’s promise of a COMPLETE return was EVER kept.

Let us look at the chapter through the eyes of those who understand both the New Covenant and who the ultimate fulfillment of Israel is. He is the King of the Jews, which was written above Him on the day He fulfilled the Old Testament.

I do not have to say others are "LYING" to defend the One Gospel, One New Covenant Church, and One People of God.

What do Dispensationalists claim and what does the New Covenant reveal about a passage from Ezekiel?

Dispensational Claim: The “Dry Bones” of Ezekiel chapter 37 prove that God restored the land to the Jews during 1948.



Ezekiel begins the book in verse 1, of chapter 1, revealing that he is among the captives. Therefore, the land restoration that followed his time would have occurred when the Jews returned from captivity in Babylon, instead of 1948. The “dry bones” in the passage coming back to life can also refer to the future bodily resurrection, and judgment of the dead described by Christ in the passage below.


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


There is also a deeper meaning found in the passage once we understand the purpose of the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which was fulfilled at Calvary.


In verse 14 God says He will put His spirit in the people. The Holy Spirit is an essential part of the New Covenant found below. What is circumcision of the heart?


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;

Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


Notice what we find about Israel and Judah being not divided anymore in the verse below, and then compare it to the promise of the New Covenant.


Eze 37:19 say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand." '


Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—



Were Israel and Judah put back together as one stick during 1948, or were they put back together when the New Covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ at Calvary?


Look at the verse below which refers to the people of God from Ezekiel and compare it to the New Covenant verse from Jeremiah.


Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.



Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.




Will King David be over Israel “forever”, or will it be David’s offspring who will sit on David’s throne, as revealed by Peter on the Day of Pentecost? What is the “everlasting” covenant found in Hebrews 13:20? It is found below in Ezekiel 37?


Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.



Who is the “sanctuary” of the New Covenant, who will be with His people “forever” at the end of the Book of Revelation? Is it the Son of God, or is it David?


By making Ezekiel 37 about the modern State of Israel established by the God-less United Nations during 1948, modern Dispensational Theology has hidden the deeper meaning of the passage. Is the passage referring to the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary, or is it referring to 1948? Which interpretation reveals the Glory of God’s Son, who died to bring the house of Israel and the house of Judah back together into one stick, under the New Covenant fulfilled by His blood?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do members of the twelve tribes now inhabit the entire Middle East? Who did James address in the passage below? Who was James talking to?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


Who does the land belong to? In the parable below Christ said the "son" is the "heir" to the land. He also said the kingdom would be taken from those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone", and it would be given to another nation bearing fruit. That nation is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10, because they accept the "chief cornerstone".

Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


You are trying to give the kingdom back to those who reject the "chief cornerstone", and accusing those who disagree with you of "LYING".

The Son of God is the "heir" to the land, because He paid for it with His blood at Calvary. The land promise to the Old Testament Saints is found in Hebrews 11:15-16, and it is the same as ours.



.

 

[Biblewriter]

Let us look at the chapter through the eyes of those who understand both the New Covenant and who the ultimate fulfillment of Israel is. He is the King of the Jews, which was written above Him on the day He fulfilled the Old Testament.

I do not have to say others are "LYING" to defend the One Gospel, One New Covenant Church, and One People of God.

What do Dispensationalists claim and what does the New Covenant reveal about a passage from Ezekiel?

Dispensational Claim: The “Dry Bones” of Ezekiel chapter 37 prove that God restored the land to the Jews during 1948.



Ezekiel begins the book in verse 1, of chapter 1, revealing that he is among the captives. Therefore, the land restoration that followed his time would have occurred when the Jews returned from captivity in Babylon, instead of 1948. The “dry bones” in the passage coming back to life can also refer to the future bodily resurrection, and judgment of the dead described by Christ in the passage below.


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


There is also a deeper meaning found in the passage once we understand the purpose of the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which was fulfilled at Calvary.


In verse 14 God says He will put His spirit in the people. The Holy Spirit is an essential part of the New Covenant found below. What is circumcision of the heart?


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;

Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


Notice what we find about Israel and Judah being not divided anymore in the verse below, and then compare it to the promise of the New Covenant.


Eze 37:19 say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand." '


Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—



Were Israel and Judah put back together as one stick during 1948, or were they put back together when the New Covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ at Calvary?


Look at the verse below which refers to the people of God from Ezekiel and compare it to the New Covenant verse from Jeremiah.


Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.



Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.




Will King David be over Israel “forever”, or will it be David’s offspring who will sit on David’s throne, as revealed by Peter on the Day of Pentecost? What is the “everlasting” covenant found in Hebrews 13:20? It is found below in Ezekiel 37?


Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.



Who is the “sanctuary” of the New Covenant, who will be with His people “forever” at the end of the Book of Revelation? Is it the Son of God, or is it David?


By making Ezekiel 37 about the modern State of Israel established by the God-less United Nations during 1948, modern Dispensational Theology has hidden the deeper meaning of the passage. Is the passage referring to the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary, or is it referring to 1948? Which interpretation reveals the Glory of God’s Son, who died to bring the house of Israel and the house of Judah back together into one stick, under the New Covenant fulfilled by His blood?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do members of the twelve tribes now inhabit the entire Middle East? Who did James address in the passage below? Who was James talking to?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


Who does the land belong to? In the parable below Christ said the "son" is the "heir" to the land. He also said the kingdom would be taken from those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone", and it would be given to another nation bearing fruit. That nation is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10, because they accept the "chief cornerstone".

Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


You are trying to give the kingdom back to those who reject the "chief cornerstone", and accusing those who disagree with you of "LYING".

The Son of God is the "heir" to the land, because He paid for it with His blood at Calvary. The land promise to the Old Testament Saints is found in Hebrews 11:15-16, and it is the same as ours.



.

This is just another one of your TYPICAL attempts at deflection.

I pointed out EXPLICITLY STATED promises that God made to the ancient nation of Israel. And I pointed out that that there can be zero doubt that you PERSONALLY know that THESE PARTICULAR promises have NEVER been kept.

Thus, I PROVED that you were LYING when you tried to pretend that they HAD been kept.

In response, you only denigrated me for pointing out that you are LYING, and then tried to change the subject.

The SUBJECT is that you PERSONALLY know that the promises I quoted have NEVER been kept. But you keep on trying to pretend that they HAVE been kept. This is NOT an error in interpretation. it is a FLAT OUT LIE.

 

[BABerean2]

This is just another one of your TYPICAL attempts at deflection.

I pointed out EXPLICITLY STATED promises that God made to the ancient nation of Israel. And I pointed out that that there can be zero doubt that you PERSONALLY know that THESE PARTICULAR promises have NEVER been kept.

Thus, I PROVED that you were LYING when you tried to pretend that they HAD been kept.

In response, you only denigrated me for pointing out that you are LYING, and then tried to change the subject.

The SUBJECT is that you PERSONALLY know that the promises I quoted have NEVER been kept. But you keep on trying to pretend that they HAVE been kept. This is NOT an error in interpretation. it is a FLAT OUT LIE.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


.

 

[Clare73]

No, we do not agree on that point. The LENGTH of that period MAY POSSIBLY be metaphorical. But the FACT that there will be such a physical kingdom IN THIS WORLD cannot even possibly be metaphorical. It is explicitly stated in too many scriptures and in too many ways.

Precisely. . .it is the church, the eternal kingdom (Daniel 2:44-45),
set up during the Roman empire (which conquered the Greek empire--Daniel 2:40-43),
not of this world (John 18:36),
invisible, within (Luke 17:20-21),
where Jesus reigns (1 Corinthians 15:25-26) and rules in the hearts of those who love him,
who also reign with him (Ephesians 2:6).

Can't get much clearer than that.

And it's not based on personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8) which are subject to more than one interpretation, but it is clear and authoritative NT teaching.

Any personal interpretation of prophetic riddles which is not in agreement with authoritative NT teaching is in error.

 

[Clare73]

On the authority of the explicit statements of Ezekiel 36:1-10, Ezekiel 47:13-20, and all of Ezekiel 48, among other places.

All fulfilled in the return from exile under Nehemiah, when the walls were rebuilt, the temple was rebuilt, the people rededicated themselves to God and there was much rejoicing, which could be heard from afar (Nehemiah 12:43).

And idolatry was never again found in Israel, which was the reason for the exile.

There is no Biblical teaching of a second fulfillment.
A second fulfillment is simply personal interpretation of prophetic riddles, which intepretation enjoys no support in Biblical teaching.

 

[Biblewriter]

All fulfilled in the return from exile under Nehemiah, when the walls were rebuilt, the temple was rebuilt, the people rededicated themselves to God and there was much rejoicing, which could be heard from afar (Nehemiah 12:43).

And idolatry was never again found in Israel, which was the reason for the exile.

There is no Biblical teaching of a second fulfillment.
A second fulfillment is simply personal interpretation of prophetic riddles, which intepretation enjoys no support in Biblical teaching.

This is PLAINLY and COMPLETELY incorrect.

The return that took place under Ezra was only a very small fraction of the southern sub-kingdom of Judah, with NO significant representation from the northern sub-kingdom of Ephraim. We are specifically told of that return that "The whole assembly together was forty-two thousand three hundred and sixty, besides their male and female servants, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred and thirty-seven; and they had two hundred men and women singers." (Ezra 2:64-65) That is a total of only forty-nine thousand nine hundred and ninety two persons. This tally was repeated in Nehemiah 7:66-67. By comparison, 2 Chronicles 17:12-19 informs us that, in the days of Jehoshaphat, the army of Judah was one million, one hundred and sixty thousand men, to say nothing of those Jews that were not in the army.

So the return that took place at THAT time was not even an APPROXIMATE fulfillment of the EXPLICIT STATEMENT, (not, as you falsely claimed, an INTERPRETATION) that the "mountains of Israel," along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, (Ezekiel 36:4) would again be inhabited by "all the house of Israel, all of it." (Ezekiel 36:10)

Nor did those returning EVER have borders that even APPROXIMATELY matched the EXPLICITLY STATED (again NOT Interpreted) borders specified in Ezekiel 47:13-20. Nor was that PLOT OF REAL ESTATE ever divided up between the "twelve tribes of Israel" in the way so precisely specified in Ezekiel 48.

And in Isaiah 65: 15-20, the future return of Israel is CLEARLY stated to be AFTER the Lord will come "with fire, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire," not BEFORE that time.

So the scriptures do indeed specify, and EXPLICITLY specify, in PLAIN, CLEAR words, that require ZERO interpretation, that there will be a future return of absolutely all of the ancient nation of Israel to their ancient homeland, and clearly show that this return will take place AFTER the Lord returns, not BEFORE.

So your claim that this is only INTERPRETATION of scriptures whose meaning is NOT CLEAR is simply false.

The ONLY reason the meaning of these scriptures is not clear to you is because you REFUSE to BELIEVE what they EXPLICITLY say in PLAIN, CLEAR, words.

 

[BABerean2]

And in Isaiah 65: 15-20, the future return of Israel is CLEARLY stated to be AFTER the Lord will come "with fire, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire," not BEFORE that time.

The passage below is clearly about the New Heavens and the New Earth.

The end of the passage contains the removal of he curse.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Paul reveals that Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God and obey the Gospel.

Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
Isa 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

This agrees with what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

.

 

[Clare73]

This is PLAINLY and COMPLETELY incorrect.

The return that took place under Ezra was only a very small fraction of the southern sub-kingdom of Judah, with NO significant representation from the northern sub-kingdom of Ephraim. We are specifically told of that return that "The whole assembly together was forty-two thousand three hundred and sixty, besides their male and female servants, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred and thirty-seven; and they had two hundred men and women singers." (Ezra 2:64-65) That is a total of only forty-nine thousand nine hundred and ninety two persons. This tally was repeated in Nehemiah 7:66-67. By comparison, 2 Chronicles 17:12-19 informs us that, in the days of Jehoshaphat, the army of Judah was one million, one hundred and sixty thousand men, to say nothing of those Jews that were not in the army.

So the return that took place at THAT time was not even an APPROXIMATE fulfillment of the EXPLICIT STATEMENT, (not, as you falsely claimed, an INTERPRETATION) that

the "mountains of Israel," along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, (Ezekiel 36:4) would again be inhabited by "all the house of Israel, all of it." (Ezekiel 36:10)
Nor did those returning EVER have borders that even APPROXIMATELY matched the EXPLICITLY STATED (again NOT Interpreted) borders specified in Ezekiel 47:13-20. Nor was that PLOT OF REAL ESTATE ever divided up between the "twelve tribes of Israel" in the way so precisely specified in Ezekiel 48.

All unfulfilled prophecy is subject to more than one interpretation, we not knowing which is correct,
if any, until their fulfillment.
Isreal being restored to the land under Ezra, where the Temple and the walls were rebuilt, and the people rededicated to God, idolatry never again being found in Israel, which was the cause of their exile, I see Ezekiel differently. . .

that overall it's about "God is revealed in the judments he exercutes" (Psalms 9:6).

In chps 1-24, God will be revealed in the fall of Jerusalem.
In chps 25-32, God will be revealed in the destruction (judgment) of the nations. And then
In chps 33-48, God will be revealed in the restoration of Israel.

And I see the restoration of Israel to be about the restoration of the original creation in the new creation of the church (both OT and NT saints).
I note that nowhere in Eze 45-48 is the city called Jerusalem, or the land called Canaan, that the old names are forgotten, for all is done away with and all things are new (2 Corinthians 5:17).

In chps 40-44, I see the design of the Temple to be a pattern/type of the body of Christ, the temple of God (2 Corinthians 6:16). Read chps 40-44 in the light of Revelation 21, the New Jerusalem.

In chps 40-44, there is return to the ancient standards--the calendar (40:1), the cubit (40:5), the high priest (40:46), of purity (44:16), a type of the restoration of the original creation in the new creation, the Bride of Christ (New Jerusalem).

And I see that restoration in the new creation, the Bride of Christ (New Jerusalem--Revelation 21:9-10) beginning in chp 36, where
36:16-38 - is the pattern of God's purpose in the Church (one olive tree of both OT and NT saints).
37:1-14 - pattern/type of restoration of original creation in new creation by new life in rebirth
37:15-28 - same pattern- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -> in unity of Jews and Gentiles in the Church

40-48 - the NEW creation in the Church (2 Corinthians 5:17)

40-43 - the NEW Temple--type of Church, body of Christ
45 - the NEW Jerusalem - type of Church, bride of Christ
47:1-12 - waters of life in NEW Jerusalem (Revelation 22:1-2)
47:13-48:35 - the NEW Israel of God (Galatians 6:16), type of Church, people of God (1 Peter 2:10)

For me, Ezekiel is Fulfillment Theology, and makes sense only in light of God's NEW creation--the Church, the bride and body of Christ, the New Jerusalem.

And in Isaiah 65: 15-20, the future return of Israel is CLEARLY stated to be AFTER the Lord will come "with fire, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire," not BEFORE that time.

So the scriptures do indeed specify, and EXPLICITLY specify, in PLAIN, CLEAR words, that require ZERO interpretation, that there will be a future return of absolutely all of the ancient nation of Israel to their ancient homeland, and clearly show that this return will take place AFTER the Lord returns, not BEFORE.

So your claim that this is only INTERPRETATION of scriptures whose meaning is NOT CLEAR is simply false.

The ONLY reason the meaning of these scriptures is not clear to you is because you REFUSE to BELIEVE what they EXPLICITLY say in PLAIN, CLEAR, words.

 

[Biblewriter]

The passage below is clearly about the New Heavens and the New Earth.

The end of the passage contains the removal of he curse.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Paul reveals that Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God and obey the Gospel.

Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
Isa 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

This agrees with what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

.

This was a typo. I intended to say Isaiah 66:15-20

 

[Biblewriter]

All unfulfilled prophecy is subject to more than one interpretation, we not knowing which is correct,
if any, until their fulfillment.
Isreal being restored to the land under Ezra, where the Temple and the walls were rebuilt, and the people rededicated to God, idolatry never again being found in Israel, which was the cause of their exile, I see Ezekiel differently. . .

that overall it's about "God is revealed in the judments he exercutes" (Psalms 9:6).

In chps 1-24, God will be revealed in the fall of Jerusalem.
In chps 25-32, God will be revealed in the destruction (judgment) of the nations. And then
In chps 33-48, God will be revealed in the restoration of Israel.

And I see the restoration of Israel to be about the restoration of the original creation in the new creation of the church (both OT and NT saints).
I note that nowhere in Eze 45-48 is the city called Jerusalem, or the land called Canaan, that the old names are forgotten, for all is done away with and all things are new (2 Corinthians 5:17).

In chps 40-44, I see the design of the Temple to be a pattern/type of the body of Christ, the temple of God (2 Corinthians 6:16). Read chps 40-44 in the light of Revelation 21, the New Jerusalem.

In chps 40-44, there is return to the ancient standards--the calendar (40:1), the cubit (40:5), the high priest (40:46), of purity (44:16), a type of the restoration of the original creation in the new creation, the Bride of Christ (New Jerusalem).

And I see that restoration in the new creation, the Bride of Christ (New Jerusalem--Revelation 21:9-10) beginning in chp 36, where
36:16-38 - is the pattern of God's purpose in the Church (one olive tree of both OT and NT saints).
37:1-14 - pattern/type of restoration of original creation in new creation by new life in rebirth
37:15-28 - same pattern- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -> in unity of Jews and Gentiles in the Church

40-48 - the NEW creation in the Church (2 Corinthians 5:17)

40-43 - the NEW Temple--type of Church, body of Christ
45 - the NEW Jerusalem - type of Church, bride of Christ
47:1-12 - waters of life in NEW Jerusalem (Revelation 22:1-2)
47:13-48:35 - the NEW Israel of God (Galatians 6:16), type of Church, people of God (1 Peter 2:10)

For me, Ezekiel is Fulfillment Theology, and makes sense only in light of God's NEW creation--the Church, the bride and body of Christ, the New Jerusalem.

YOU accused ME of applying my "personal interpretation of prophetic riddles," when that is EXACTLY what YOU are doing. But the prophecies in question are not even approximately "riddles." They EXPLICITLY say what they mean, and they say it in PLAIN CLEAR words. You also falsely called the PLAIN scriptural teaching of a second return an "interpretation," when the scriptures say EXACTLY that. So your claim that this doctrine "enjoys no support in Biblical teaching." is MANIFESTLY false.

 

[BABerean2]

This was a typo. I intended to say Isaiah 66:15-20

Isa 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

.

 

[Clare73]

I see Ezekiel differently. . .that overall it's about "God is revealed in the judments he exercutes" (Psalms 9:6).

In chps 1-24, God will be revealed in the fall of Jerusalem.
In chps 25-32, God will be revealed in the destruction (judgment) of the nations. And
In chps 33-48, God will be revealed in the restoration of Israel.
And I see the restoration of Israel to be about the restoration of the original creation in the NEW creation of the Church (one olive tree of both OT and NT saints).
I note that nowhere in Eze 45-48 is the city called Jerusalem, or the land called Canaan, that the old names are forgotten, for all is done away with and all things are new (2 Corinthians 5:17).

In chps 40-44, I see the design of the Temple to be a pattern/type of the body of Christ, the temple of God (2 Corinthians 6:16). Read chps 40-44 in the light of Revelation 21, the New Jerusalem.

In chps 40-44, there is return to the ancient standards--the calendar (40:1), the cubit (40:5), the high priest (40:46), of purity (44:16), a type of the restoration of the original creation in the new creation, the Bride of Christ (New Jerusalem).

And I see that restoration in the new creation, the Bride of Christ (New Jerusalem--Revelation 21:9-10) beginning in chp 36, where
36:16-38 - is the pattern of God's purpose in the Church (one olive tree of both OT and NT saints).
37:1-14 - pattern/type of restoration of original creation in new creation by new life in rebirth
37:15-28 - same pattern- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -> in unity of Jews and Gentiles in the Church

40-48 - the NEW creation in the Church (2 Corinthians 5:17)

40-43 - the NEW Temple--type of Church, body of Christ
45 - the NEW Jerusalem - type of Church, bride of Christ
47:1-12 - waters of life in NEW Jerusalem (Revelation 22:1-2)
47:13-48:35 - the NEW Israel of God (Galatians 6:16), type of Church, people of God (1 Peter 2:10)

For me, Ezekiel is Fulfillment Theology, and makes sense only in light of God's NEW creation--the Church, the bride and body of Christ, the New Jerusalem.

YOU accused ME of applying my "personal interpretation of prophetic riddles," when that is EXACTLY what YOU are doing.

Accusation is in the eye of the beholder.
I said your understanding of Ezekiel was personal interpretation of a prophetic riddle (Numbers 12:8), which is subject to more than one intepretation, we not knowing which, if any, is correct.
I then offered my personal interpretation, subject to the same conditions as yours.

However, the difference in our interpretations is that mine enjoys the agreement of NT teaching regarding its antitypes.

But the prophecies in question are not even approximately "riddles."

That is likewise a matter of personal intrepretation.

They EXPLICITLY say what they mean, and they say it in PLAIN CLEAR words.
You also falsely called the PLAIN scriptural teaching of a second return an "interpretation,"

Please demonstrate.

Reminder: all explanation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8) is by "interpretation." Only their fulfillment reveals if any are correct.

 

[Biblewriter]

Accusation is in the eye of the beholder.
I said your understanding of Ezekiel was personal interpretation of a prophetic riddle (Numbers 12:8), which is subject to more than one intepretation, we not knowing which, if any, is correct.
I then offered my personal interpretation, subject to the same conditions as yours.

However, the difference in our interpretations is that mine enjoys the agreement of NT teaching regarding its antitypes.
That is likewise a matter of personal intrepretation.

Please demonstrate.

Reminder: all explanation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8) is by "interpretation." Only their fulfillment reveals if any are correct.

An explicit statement that a specific event is going to take place is not a "prophetic riddle." What you are doing is trying to do is to INTERPRET the clear, unambiguous, pronouncements of God to NOT mean what He so EXPLICITLY said.

You asked me to "demonstrate" that God actually said this. He, in actual fact, said it so many times that it took a whole new thread, just to list SOME of the times that God EXPLICITLY said this.

 

[Clare73]

An explicit statement that a specific event is going to take place is not a "prophetic riddle." What you are doing is trying to do is to INTERPRET the clear, unambiguous, pronouncements of God to NOT mean what He so EXPLICITLY said.

You are in disagreement with God who told Miriam that he gave prophecy in riddles,
and not clearly (Numbers 12:8).

You asked me to "demonstrate" that God actually said this. He, in actual fact, said it so many times that it took a whole new thread, just to list SOME of the times that God EXPLICITLY said this.

Yes, and I have responded to your post in that new thread,
God's unconditional promises to the ancient nation of Israel.

 

[Biblewriter]

You are in disagreement with God who told Miriam that he gave prophecy in riddles,
and not clearly (Numbers 12:8).
Yes, and I have responded to your post in that new thread,
God's unconditional promises to the ancient nation of Israel.

You are not accurately quoting Numbers 12:8, which actually says the very opposite of what you are claiming:

"I speak with him face to face, Even plainly, and not in dark sayings."