God has prerogative powers, and discretionary powers to either forgive or condemn his Enemies.

[greyhawk.444]

YHVH will by no means acquit anybody who is guilty of crimes against God or crimes against humanity (Exodus 20:5; Numbers 14:18) - That God is said to be 'merciful' would simply imply that he reserves all prerogative powers, and *discretionary* powers to commute the death penalty (or other severe punishment), *but by no means will the offender go unpunished for his de facto crimes against God or crimes against humanity*.

This is clearly illustrated by the death of David's illegitimate son (2 Samuel 12:18) despite his plead (or repentance) to God for the life of his child (2 Samuel 12:16) - Although technically speaking, God still reserved the right to punish 3 to 4 generations of David's descendants for his adultery (2 Samuel 11:4) and for his murder of Uriah the Hittite (2 Samuel 11:15, 17, 26) - But in the end, God decided that David and Bathsheba's grief over their son would more than suffice and decided not to punish them anymore than he did.

Now, Christians have argued that the New Testament and new covenant of Jesus Christ should allegedly take priority over OT laws such as Exodus 20:5 and Numbers 14:18 - And so, they have argued that God should keep his alleged 'promise' to forgive anyone who has shown contrition (or repentance) in accordance with 1 John 1:9 - Which is essentially the same as Ezekiel 18:21-22 - But 1 John 1:9 is not standalone and should be understood in the context of other relevant passages, which may seem to 'contradict' the aforementioned - So in this case, both Exodus 20:5 and Numbers 14:18 are relevant passages, which seems to contradict 1 John 1:9.

As a side note, here we need to remind ourselves that Jesus said he did not come to abolish the Law and prophets, but to fulfill the Law and prophecies of the OT (Matthew 5:17).

Thus, it is false to presume that OT rules are now 'obsolete' or to presume that NT rules should somehow take precedence over the OT - Since it would be contrary to the Teachings of Christ (Matthew 5:17) to presume that NT rules should take priority over OT rules, or to presume that OT rules have been 'obsoleted' by the NT.

Since we accept that OT rules are still valid, but not in anyway subordinate to NT rules, it thereby follows that Exodus 20:5 and Numbers 14:18 are still valid, and equally valid beside 1 John 1:9 - Which is essentially the same as Ezekiel 18:21-22.

So, whether God will show mercy or not is entirely at his discretion (Romans 9:16), but it all depends on whether one rule is considered more important than the other in a given situation where God has to make a choice -

Now, the most common type of punishment is "death" - Either, physical or spiritual death, or both - According to Ezekiel 18:4 and Romans 6:23.

So, let X = {Exodus 20:5; Numbers 14:18} and Y = {Ezekiel 18:21-22; 1 John 1:9}

Then, if X > Y -----> No mercy whatsoever (or at best, commute the death penalty)

But, if X < Y -----> Full pardon, as contingent on God's grace or propitiation by the Offender

Thus, there is no 'contradiction' at all between X and Y if we understand that God reserves all prerogative powers, and *discretionary* powers to decide which of the 2 rules is more important (and which one to apply) in a given situation - That is, whether X is considered more important than Y (Vice versa) is entirely down to his discretion (Romans 9:16).

Discuss.

 

[jax5434]

YHVH will by no means acquit anybody who is guilty of crimes against God or crimes against humanity (Exodus 20:5; Numbers 14:18) - That God is said to be 'merciful' would simply imply that he reserves all prerogative powers, and *discretionary* powers to commute the death penalty (or other severe punishment), *but by no means will the offender go unpunished for his de facto crimes against God or crimes against humanity*.

This is clearly illustrated by the death of David's illegitimate son (2 Samuel 12:18), although technically speaking, God still reserved the right to punish 3 to 4 generations of David's descendants for his adultery (2 Samuel 11:4) and for his murder of Uriah the Hittite (2 Samuel 11:15, 17, 26) - But in the end, God decided that David and Bathsheba's grief over their son would more than suffice and decided not to punish them anymore than he did.

Now, Christians have argued that the New Testament and new covenant of Jesus Christ should allegedly take priority over OT laws such as Exodus 20:5 and Numbers 14:18 - And so, they have argued that God should keep his alleged 'promise' to forgive anyone who has shown contrition (or repentance) in accordance with 1 John 1:9 - Which is essentially the same as Ezekiel 18:21-22 - But 1 John 1:9 is not standalone and should be understood in the context of other relevant passages, which may seem to 'contradict' the aforementioned - So in this case, both Exodus 20:5 and Numbers 14:18 are relevant passages, which seems to contradict 1 John 1:9.

As a side note, here we need to remind ourselves that Jesus said he did not come to abolish the Law and prophets, but to fulfill the Law and prophecies of the OT (Matthew 5:17).

Thus, it is false to presume that OT rules are now 'obsolete' or to presume that NT rules should somehow take precedence over the OT - Since it would be contrary to the Teachings of Christ (Matthew 5:17) to presume that NT rules should take priority over OT rules, or to presume that OT rules have been 'obsoleted' by the NT.

Since we accept that OT rules are still valid, but not in anyway subordinate to NT rules, it thereby follows that Exodus 20:5 and Numbers 14:18 are still valid, and equally valid beside 1 John 1:9 - Which is essentially the same as Ezekiel 18:21-22.

So, whether God will show mercy or not is entirely at his discretion (Romans 9:16), but it all depends on whether one rule is considered more important than the other in a given situation where God has to make a choice -

Now, the most common type of punishment is "death" - Either, physical or spiritual death, or both - According to Ezekiel 18:4 and Romans 6:23.

So, let X = {Exodus 20:5; Numbers 14:18} and Y = {Ezekiel 18:21-22; 1 John 1:9}

Then, if X > Y -----> No mercy whatsoever (or at best, commute the death penalty)

But, if X < Y -----> Full pardon, as contingent on God's grace or propitiation by the Offender

Thus, there is no 'contradiction' at all between X and Y if we understand that God reserves all prerogative powers, and *discretionary* powers to decide which of the 2 rules is more important (and which one to apply) in a given situation - That is, whether X is considered more important than Y (Vice versa) is entirely down to his discretion (Romans 9:16).

Discuss.

The Exodus and Numbers passages are speaking of people who have not/will not repent. The Ezekiel and 1 John verses are explicitly speaking of people who have, or are willing to, repent. I agree there are no contradictions between them because they are speaking to 2 distinctly different groups.
God Bless
Jax

 

[greyhawk.444]

The Exodus and Numbers passages are speaking of people who have not/will not repent. The Ezekiel and 1 John verses are explicitly speaking of people who have, or are willing to, repent. I agree there are no contradictions between them because they are speaking to 2 distinctly different groups.
God Bless
Jax

So, then let, X1 = {Exodus 20:5; Numbers 14:18} = People who have not/will not repent

And let, X2 = 2 Samuel 12:16 = People who showed *belated* response, and repentance borne out of *fear* instead of genuine love of God and his commandments

And let Y = {Ezekiel 18:21-22; 1 John 1:9} = People who have, or are willing to, repent

Now, X2 is interesting - Since David pleaded (or repented) for the life of his child (2 Samuel 12:16), but his plea was rejected by God and the child subsequently died (2 Samuel 12:18) - Since, YHVH will by no means acquit those who are guilty of crimes against God or crimes against humanity (Exodus 20:5; Numbers 14:18).

Since there is a time lapse, timeframe, and time limit as to whether God can accept your repentance as being genuine - Now, David had at least 9 months to confess his sin and repent, between the conception of his child (i.e. His Adultery and the Murder of Uriah the Hittite) and the birth of his child - Between 2 Samuel 11:15 and V27 - But his repentance came too late and Only after he was confronted by God, and his repentance was borne out of fear for the child instead of genuine love of God and his commandments - Now, fear and love of God are clearly different, so therefore the ulterior motive must also be different - So God rejected David's plea (or repentance) because he was motivated by his love of the child, but his motive wasn't genuine love of God and his commandments - As demonstrated by the considerable time lapse and David's attempt to keep it 'secret', which implied he had no intention to repent and to do so for the right reasons - To repent for one's genuine love of God and his commandments means to know the difference between right and wrong, but Not to save your own skin nor to save those whom you love.

Generally speaking, repentance which comes after considerable time lapse and done for the wrong reasons is not acceptable to God, and will be rejected by Him. That person concerned would still suffer the full penalty (or Part penalty) for his crimes against God or crimes against humanity.

As a side note - But also relevant to the aforementioned - God initially sent 9 plagues to strike Pharaoh and his people, but on each occasion, Pharaoh vacillated between cooperation and his outright refusal to listen to Moses.

This symbolically served to demonstrate that people who have consistently vacillated are also unreliable and not to be trusted at all - Since we know that the motive behind their so called 'repentance' cannot be sincere if they have vacillated, or because they repent out of fear or for love of themselves (or for fear of loved ones), but not for genuine love of God and his commandments.

So God sent the tenth and final plague to kill all the Egyptian firstborn, which symbolically meant that God will reject the insincere contrition (or repentance) of people who are disingenuine, but they will suffer the full impact of their crimes against God or crimes against humanity (Ezekiel 18:4; Romans 6:23; Exodus 12:29).

Generally speaking, God will reject people who repent (=X2) if they repent for the wrong reasons, as shown by their inconsistency, or by the time lapse which would serve to demonstrate insincerity on their part.

Now, God has made an example of David's child (2 Samuel 12:16, 18) to demonstrate that there are certain rules - Which may well be inferred by studying this particular case in point - or loopholes as regarding Y = {Ezekiel 18:21-22; 1 John 1:9} - That is to say, God will reject your plea for mercy if one's repentance is insincere, or if done for the wrong reasons - In which case, you do not belong to Y at all, but would be consigned to the X2 category of Offenders and whatever would be deemed suitable punishment for this particular Class.

 

[amariselle]

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:14-18

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." - John 3:36

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

"Then said they unto him, 'What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?'"

Jesus answered and said unto them, 'This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.'" - John 6:27-29

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:38-40

There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in His Son. (Romans 6:23)

Christ is the end of the Law for all who believe. (Romans 10:4)

We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. (Ephesians 2:8)

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

Repentance from "dead works" and faith toward God. - (Hebrews 6:1)

By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified, but only by faith in Christ. (Galatians 2:16)

Also read Romans 4, Romans 5, Galatians 5, Hebrews 4, Hebrews 11

Our salvation is entirely by faith in Christ and what He has done. (The Gospel) 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

 

[jax5434]

And let, X2 = 2 Samuel 12:16 = People who showed *belated* response, and repentance borne out of *fear* instead of genuine love of God and his commandments

Now, X2 is interesting - Since David pleaded (or repented) for the life of his child (2 Samuel 12:16), but his plea was rejected by God and the child subsequently died (2 Samuel 12:18) - Since, YHVH will by no means acquit those who are guilty of crimes against God or crimes against humanity (Exodus 20:5; Numbers 14:18).

Immediately after Nathan confronted him David says in Vs:13

“I have sinned against the Lord.”

This is when he repented. I agree that David should have repented much sooner, or better yet resisted his temptation entirely. None the less Nathan replies, speaking for the Lord : “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die” So we have here Davids repentance and Gods’ forgiveness.

So why did the child die?

Again Nathans answers that question in vs.14 “But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.”

How had he shown contempt? Because he waited to long to repent? No thtat is not what the scripture says. Davids contempt for God is enumerated in verses 7-10

7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’’

Nothing is mentioned about how long David waited to repent. The childs death was punishment for Davids sin.

“14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.”

Since there is a time lapse, timeframe, and time limit as to whether God can accept your repentance as being genuine –

I don’t think you can establish that from these verses. Especially since any doctrine has to be developed in consideration with all other relative verses. And none so far as I am aware teach that, short of death, there is a time limit on repentance. Whether or not God accepts our repentance as genuine depends on our hearts (which God knows) not on the calendar.

Generally speaking, God will reject people who repent (=X2) if they repent for the wrong reasons, as shown by their inconsistency, or by the time lapse which would serve to demonstrate insincerity on their part

The first portion of this regarding repenting for the wrong reasons I agree with. The rest of the statement is an assertion that requires much more scriptural support than you have offered thus far..
God Bless
Jax

 

[greyhawk.444]

And let, X2 = 2 Samuel 12:16 = People who showed *belated* response, and repentance borne out of *fear* instead of genuine love of God and his commandments

Now, X2 is interesting - Since David pleaded (or repented) for the life of his child (2 Samuel 12:16), but his plea was rejected by God and the child subsequently died (2 Samuel 12:18) - Since, YHVH will by no means acquit those who are guilty of crimes against God or crimes against humanity (Exodus 20:5; Numbers 14:18).

Immediately after Nathan confronted him David says in Vs:13

“I have sinned against the Lord.”

This is when he repented. I agree that David should have repented much sooner, or better yet resisted his temptation entirely. None the less Nathan replies, speaking for the Lord : “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die” So we have here Davids repentance and Gods’ forgiveness.

So why did the child die?

Again Nathans answers that question in vs.14 “But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.”

How had he shown contempt? Because he waited to long to repent? No thtat is not what the scripture says. Davids contempt for God is enumerated in verses 7-10

7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’’

Nothing is mentioned about how long David waited to repent. The childs death was punishment for Davids sin.

“14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.”

Since there is a time lapse, timeframe, and time limit as to whether God can accept your repentance as being genuine –

I don’t think you can establish that from these verses. Especially since any doctrine has to be developed in consideration with all other relative verses. And none so far as I am aware teach that, short of death, there is a time limit on repentance. Whether or not God accepts our repentance as genuine depends on our hearts (which God knows) not on the calendar.

Generally speaking, God will reject people who repent (=X2) if they repent for the wrong reasons, as shown by their inconsistency, or by the time lapse which would serve to demonstrate insincerity on their part

The first portion of this regarding repenting for the wrong reasons I agree with. The rest of the statement is an assertion that requires much more scriptural support than you have offered thus far..
God Bless
Jax

Due to my busy schedule I am unable to answer you, but will endeavour to answer this in due course.

 

[greyhawk.444]

Immediately after Nathan confronted him David says in Vs:13

“I have sinned against the Lord.”

This is when he repented. I agree that David should have repented much sooner, or better yet resisted his temptation entirely. None the less Nathan replies, speaking for the Lord : “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die.” So we have here Davids repentance and Gods’ forgiveness.

So why did the child die?

Again Nathans answers that question in vs.14 “But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.”

How had he shown contempt? Because he waited to long to repent? No thtat is not what the scripture says. Davids contempt for God is enumerated in verses 7-10

7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’’

Nothing is mentioned about how long David waited to repent. The childs death was punishment for Davids sin.

Firstly, I have to disagree that Numbers 14:18 is only concerned about people who have not/will not repent - As what you suggest is contrary to Scripture:-

‘The Lord is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty,visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.’

Now, the above passage can be sub-divided into 3 distinctive components:-

(1) God will forgive the iniquity and transgressions of those who show contrition (i.e. Repentance).
(2) But by no means would He clear those who are guilty.
(3) However, He would punish all those who have not/will not repent by punishing 3 to 4 generations of their children.

Despite the apparent contradiction between (1) and (2) there is no contradiction at all if we carefully study the example of David's child in 2 Samuel 12 v 7-10, 13, 14.

Thus, God had forgiven David by not taking his life, but he killed David's child instead.

This implies that God would forgive anybody who repents, but also there is a certain limit as to the extent of his mercy (i.e. forgiveness).

That is, God would show mercy to those who repent, but the extent of His mercy is only real relatively speaking - Not real in absolute terms.

In other words, God would show mercy to those who repent by waiving the most severe penalties - Which are usually the death penalty according to Ezekiel 18:4 and Romans 6:23 - and apply lesser penalties instead - Since, logically those who have sinned are still liable to be punished - No matter how much they have shown contrition or remorse (i.e. Repentance).

So if you have sinned against God it would always entail consequences or punishments for those who are concerned, but don't expect to "Just walk off with no punishment whatsoever" - For that is not the true meaning of "forgiveness" according to Scripture.

So although God has the discretion to apply lesser penalties don't expect to "Just walk off with no penalties whatsoever".

However, cherry picking is when somebody may suggest that "God has promised he would completely absolve you of your sins if only you would show contrition, or repent" - According to the following passages: Ezekiel 18:21, 22 and 1 John 1:9.

However, we still need to remind ourselves that this wasn't the only thing God ever promised, but besides the aforementioned he also promised that "By no means would he clear those who are guilty" (Numbers 14:18) - Since, logically those who have sinned are still liable to be punished - No matter how much they have shown contrition or remorse (i.e. Repentance).

Now, the apparent contradiction between X = {Ezekiel 18:21, 22; 1 John 1:9} and Y = Numbers 14:18 is no contradiction at all if we understood that the 2 opposite viewpoints must be offset against one another - So that the end result (=Synthesis) would contain elements of both X and Y by discarding those elements which are false.

Thus, Synthesis = "God will show mercy to anybody who repents by reducing the severity of his punishment, but in any case he would still be punished - Since God would by no means completely absolve anybody who is guilty".

Thus, the offender is still liable to be punished, although God still has discretion to waive the most severe penalties for those who have shown remorse, or contrition (i.e. Repentance).

So, as regarding 2 Samuel 12:7-10, 13, 14 God was gracious to waive David's death penalty, but ultimately he killed his child instead: What is the meaning of 2 Samuel 12:10?

A reduced penalty, which is still very severe by any account.

Now, the above Article (3) is only concerned about people who have not/will not repent - In which case, God would show no mercy whatsoever, but the offender would be severely punished along with 3 to 4 generations of their children.

So, to suggest that Numbers 14:18 is only concerned about those who have not/will not repent is patently false according to the wording of the passage; but Articles (1) and (2) are clearly concerned with those who have/will repent.

But in any case, God will forgive those who repent by commuting the death penalty, or by imposing lesser penalties, which would still be very severe according to the example of David's child - Since, YHVH would by no means completely absolve anyone who is guilty of crimes against God or crimes against humanity.

Annotation - Besides punishing David by killing his child God also said that the "sword would never leave his house" (2 Samuel 12:10), which was a further punishment on top of infanticide. But of course, this is further evidence to support the doctrine that the "White witch could only lighten the evil spell created by the wicked witch so that Sleeping Beauty wouldn't die, but would sleep for a hundred years until Prince Charming kissed her" - So in other words, the spell cannot be wholly eradicated - Although its harmful impact can be reduced by white magic - There is no way to escape the Law of Indemnity so the Offender must reap whatever he sowed (Galatians 6:7) - For better or worse, the person in question must feel the full (or partial) impact of his good (or evil) works, and there is no way for anybody to escape from God's justice.

So, although God would show mercy to those who repent - And thereby reduce the severity of punishment - there's no way that you could ever "get away Scot-free" if you have done something wrong - By committing crimes against God or crimes against humanity. However, there is every indication that the reduced penalties would still be very severe - Which was demonstrated by YHVH's fourfold punishment of David, since God killed his four sons in response to his murder of Uriah the Hittite.