"God has bound salvation to the sacraments, but..."

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Let's take the sacrament of ordination of presbyters (priests) which is commonly translated as elders. Acts 14:23 says, "And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed." Acts 6:6 says "Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them." There you have it: a sacrament.
Well, to be fair, the laying on of hands was not instituted by Jesus Christ but by the apostles. It isn't in the same category as Baptism or the Supper which were directly instituted by Christ himself. It is a worthy tradition, but there is no promise of God attached to it. That's why the churches of the Augsburg Confession do not recognize ordination as a sacrament but as a worthy tradition, as are the other practices called sacraments by the RCC besides Holy Baptism and Holy Communion, such as matrimony, anointing the sick, washing feet, etc. There is a categorical difference that cannot be ignored.
 
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Open Heart

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Well, to be fair, the laying on of hands was not instituted by Jesus Christ but by the apostles. It isn't in the same category as Baptism or the Supper which were directly instituted by Christ himself. It is a worthy tradition, but there is no promise of God attached to it. That's why the churches of the Augsburg Confession do not recognize ordination as a sacrament but as a worthy tradition, as are the other practices called sacraments by the RCC besides Holy Baptism and Holy Communion, such as matrimony, anointing the sick, washing feet, etc. There is a categorical difference that cannot be ignored.
"And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach," Mark 3:14 KJV
 
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Open Heart

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Nowhere do we see the scriptures attributing saving grace to "sacraments".
Not true. For example, BAPTISM. Peter said that forgiveness was based upon Repenting AND BAPTISM. Acts 2:38
 
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Jordan Kurecki

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Not true. For example, BAPTISM. Peter said that forgiveness was based upon Repenting AND BAPTISM. Acts 2:38

Let's examine Acts 2:38

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The greek word translated "for" is the word eis:

"The Holy Spirit very carefully and exactly selected the words that He used. There is a Greek preposition hina which means "in order to," or "so that." That is not the preposition used here. That Greek preposition hina is used in the New Testament according to Young's Analytical Concordance and translated one time albeit, one time because, one time so as, twice as so that, and 542 times as simply that and to the intent one time and to the intent that one time. So, if Peter had meant "baptized that ye may receive the remission of sins," he would have used that Greek preposition. The Greek terms are very exact.

The Greek preposition eis is never used to mean "in order to," or "to the end that."

It is true that the word eis is translated "for," but even with that translation it would be not necessarily mean that one should be baptized in order to get remission of sins. A man is paid for his work already done, not in order to get him to work. A woman is praised for her beauty, not in order to make her beautiful. A child is punished for his disobedience, not in order to get him to be disobedient. To make a meaning here which would contradict the use of the preposition all through the Bible and which would contradict the clear Bible teaching on the plan of salvation as given in many other verses, is the wrong use of the Scriptures, is the wrong interpretation."

http://www.ovrlnd.com/FalseDoctrine/Refuting_baptismal_Regen.html

Also notice the comma after repent, "be baptized or the remission of sins" is interupting clause and is statement on it's not really meant to be connected to the receiving of the gift of the holy ghost, this makes it clear that the command "repent" is connected with the clause "and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost", Repentance and faith is what brings the gift of the holy spirit, who we know regenerates us and seals us, in fact that is what we see in Acts, we see a lot of people who repent and believer and then receive the holy spirit before baptism.

Acts 2:38 could read like this : repent and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost, and be baptized because you have received forgivness of sins.

It's incorrect according to the Greek language to make the eis (english for) to mean in order to receive and it is incorrect to associate receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost with the phrase on baptism according to English grammar.
 
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Open Heart

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Also notice the comma after repent, "be baptized or the remission of sins" is interupting clause and is statement on it's not really meant to be connected to the receiving of the gift of the holy ghost, this makes it clear that the command "repent" is connected with the clause "and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost", Repentance and faith is what brings the gift of the holy spirit, who we know regenerates us and seals us, in fact that is what we see in Acts, we see a lot of people who repent and believer and then receive the holy spirit before baptism.
There are no punctuation marks in Greek, thus placing a comma after repent is YOUR INTERPRETATION ONLY. With or without that comma, baptism is connected with forgiveness, and forgiveness is salvation. And I'm sorry, but FOR is the best translation of eis, which is why every translation uses for.
 
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Open Heart

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It is true that the word eis is translated "for,"
Yes it is, so why are you trying to make FOR mean something other than what it means. None of the examples you give for the definition of FOR fit the sentence. Sheesh.
 
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Jordan Kurecki

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Yes it is, so why are you trying to make FOR mean something other than what it means. Sheesh.
Websters 1828 Dictionary gives some of the following defintions of the word "for"

Against or on account of; in prevention of.

She wrapped him close for catching cold.

Because; on account of; by reason of. He cried out for anguish. I cannot go for want of time. for this cause, I cannot believe the report.

That which we for our unworthiness are afraid to crave, our prayer is, that God for the worthiness of his son would notwithstanding vouchsafe to grant.

Edward and Richard, with fiery eyes sparkling for very wrath, are at our backs.

How to choose dogs for scent or speed.
 
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Jordan Kurecki

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There are no punctuation marks in Greek, thus placing a comma after repent is YOUR INTERPRETATION ONLY. With or without that comma, baptism is connected with forgiveness, and forgiveness is salvation. And I'm sorry, but FOR is the best translation of eis, which is why every translation uses for.
The Punctuation is simply the result of accurately translating from the Greek with it's different tenses and voices accurately into our English which lacks the complexity of the Greek.

In Acts 2:38, the main verb is metanoesate (change mind), the aorist direct imperative (a command) of metanoeo which means to repent (change mind). This refers to that initial repentance of the sinner unto salvation. The verb translated "be baptized" is in the indirect passive imperative (a command to receive, hence, passive voice in Greek1) of baptizo, which does not give it the same direct command implied in "repent." The preposition "for" in the phrase, "for the remission of sins," in Greek is "eis," unto or into, and it is in the accusative case (direct object). It can mean "for the purpose of identifying you with the remission of sins." It is the same preposition we find in 1 Cor. 10:2 in the phrase "and were baptized unto Moses." Note that both contexts are dealing with baptism and identification. In 1 Cor. 10:2, the people were baptized or spiritually identifying themselves with the purposes and vision of Moses.

But, all this Greek stuff may be confusing. Let me break it down. All people are commanded to repent for their sins. This is what believers have already done by becoming Christians. Baptism, then, is the outward identification with being a Christian for those who have already repented. Also, as the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" (1 Cor. 10:2), so, too, Christians are baptized into Jesus. That is, they are identifying themselves, publicly, with Christ. Likewise, in Rom. 6:1-5 where baptism is related to death, burial, and resurrection, it is again an identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. That is why it is said of Christians that we have died to sin (Rom. 6:2, 11, Gal. 2:19-20, Col. 2:20, Col. 3:3, 1 Pet. 2:24).

https://carm.org/baptism-and-acts-238
 
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Jordan Kurecki

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The Grammatical Objection. In Peter’s command, the verb repent (Greek metanohvsate,metanoēsate) is second-person plural. Adopting a Southern dialect for a moment, we can translate it “Y’all repent.” The verb be baptized (baptisqhvtw, baptisthētō), however, is third-person singular. We can translate it, for emphasis’ sake, “let him [or her] be baptized.” In the phrase for the forgiveness of your sins, the word your (uJmwÇn, humōn) is second-person plural again. In that Southern dialect, it would translate, “for the forgiveness of y’all’s sins.”

Imagine the implications of ignoring this switch from second-person plural to third-person singular and back. Since the command be baptized is third-person singular, and the pronoun your in your sins is second-person plural, the sense would be that each one should be baptized for the forgiveness of not only his own sins but also the sins of all the others there. Mormons may think they can be baptized for the forgiveness of others’ sins, but Peter certainly didn’t teach that!


http://www.equip.org/article/does-acts-238-teach-baptismal-remission/
 
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Jordan Kurecki

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Your doctrine is clearly refuted by
a. other possible english definitions of "for"
b. the Greek usage if the word eis"
c. The Tense and Forms of the Greek Grammar.
d. other passages in the scriptures that teach salvation is by faith alone.

Your using of Acts 2:38 to teach Baptismal Regeneration with any honesty and integrity is over.

I am done with this, the evidence I have given is irrefutable.
 
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Open Heart

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Websters 1828 Dictionary gives some of the following defintions of the word "for"
Todays current Merriam-Webster's Dictionary offers 10 possible definitions. It is definition #1a that is being used in the verse from Acts.
1
a —used as a function word to indicate purpose <a grant for studying medicine>

b —used as a function word to indicate an intended goal <left for home> <acted for the best>

c —used as a function word to indicate the object or recipient of a perception, desire, or activity<now for a good rest> <run for your life> <an eye for a bargain>
2
a : as being or constituting <taken for a fool> <eggs for breakfast>

b —used as a function word to indicate an actual or implied enumeration or selection <for one thing, the price is too high>
3
: because of <can't sleep for the heat>
4
—used as a function word to indicate suitability or fitness <it is not for you to choose> <ready foraction>
5
a : in place of <go to the store for me>

b (1) : on behalf of : representing <speaks for the court> (2) : in favor of <all for the plan>
6
: in spite of —usually used with all <for all his large size, he moves gracefully>
7
: with respect to : concerning <a stickler for detail> <heavy for its size>
8
a —used as a function word to indicate equivalence in exchange <$10 for a hat>, equality in number or quantity <point for point>, or correspondence or correlation <for every one that works, you'll find five that don't>

b —used as a function word to indicate number of attempts <0 for 4>
9
—used as a function word to indicate duration of time or extent of space <gone for two days>
10
: in honor of : after <named for her grandmother
 
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Open Heart

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The Punctuation is simply the result of accurately translating from the Greek with it's different tenses and voices accurately into our English which lacks the complexity of the Greek.
If you go to bible hub to see the various translations, you will see that scholars are divided as to whether the translation requires a comment or not. IT IS INTERPRETATION.

But like I said, WITH OR WITHOUT THE COMMA, baptism is connected to forgiveness, and forgiveness is salvation.
 
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If you go to bible hub to see the various translations, you will see that scholars are divided as to whether the translation requires a comment or not. IT IS INTERPRETATION.

But like I said, WITH OR WITHOUT THE COMMA, baptism is connected to forgiveness, and forgiveness is salvation.
Agreed. Where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation.

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

But whatever. Deniers gonna deny. Thankfully, the efficacy of Baptism depends on the word and promise of God, not on what we might not believe God accomplishes through it.
 
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Open Heart

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And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.
When I was very young, my parents didn't believe in baptism for very young children. By the time I was in junior high and high school, we were attending an evangelical Friends Church (Quaker) which didn't believe in water baptism. Over time I got used to the idea, so that by the time I was an adult, it didn't even cross my mind that I needed to be baptized. Then one day when I was 22 and attending Calvary Chapel, they announced that they would be having a mass baptism, anyone not baptized was invited. All of a sudden I remembered that I was not baptized. I thought long and hard about it. It was very confusing to me but what it came down to was this: OBEDIENCE. Whether I understood why or not, Christ asked this of me. And so at the age of 22 I was baptized.

Of course, when I became a Catholic, there was no need to become re-baptized.

For many years I left Christianity and spent the time as a Rabbinic Jew. When I returned to Christ, I did not believe I needed to be re-baptized. There is one Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM.
 
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Jordan Kurecki

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Todays current Merriam-Webster's Dictionary offers 10 possible definitions. It is definition #1a that is being used in the verse from Acts.
1
a —used as a function word to indicate purpose <a grant for studying medicine>

b —used as a function word to indicate an intended goal <left for home> <acted for the best>

c —used as a function word to indicate the object or recipient of a perception, desire, or activity<now for a good rest> <run for your life> <an eye for a bargain>
2
a : as being or constituting <taken for a fool> <eggs for breakfast>

b —used as a function word to indicate an actual or implied enumeration or selection <for one thing, the price is too high>
3
: because of <can't sleep for the heat>
4
—used as a function word to indicate suitability or fitness <it is not for you to choose> <ready foraction>
5
a : in place of <go to the store for me>

b (1) : on behalf of : representing <speaks for the court> (2) : in favor of <all for the plan>
6
: in spite of —usually used with all <for all his large size, he moves gracefully>
7
: with respect to : concerning <a stickler for detail> <heavy for its size>
8
a —used as a function word to indicate equivalence in exchange <$10 for a hat>, equality in number or quantity <point for point>, or correspondence or correlation <for every one that works, you'll find five that don't>

b —used as a function word to indicate number of attempts <0 for 4>
9
—used as a function word to indicate duration of time or extent of space <gone for two days>
10
: in honor of : after <named for her grandmother
So do you also believe in John 3:16 where it says "FOR God so loved the world" that the word for means "in order to receive instead of "because of"

Get real. You are being so unbelievably dishonest with the information I have showed you.

The greek word eis does not mean in order to receive, Jesus used the same word when he said that the people of ninevah repented at (EIS) the preaching of Jonah.

Unless you believe they repented in order to receive instead of because of his preaching...

You are just showing your wilful ignorance of the Greek, Since it has been shown by both of us that the english word "For" can have different meanings, we must determine from context and the Greek what the proper definition of english fits for the word for. The Greek definition of eis does not agree with the definition you are demanding.

You are being dishonest with the word of God and handling it deceitfully.
 
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Open Heart

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So do you also believe in John 3:16 where it says "FOR God so loved the world" that the word for means "in order to receive instead of "because of"
As I showed you, there are 10 possible definitions. Just because one case uses one definition, doesn't mean all cases will. Sigh* isn't this OBVIOUS?
 
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Open Heart

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Get real. You are being so unbelievably dishonest with the information I have showed you.
This is flaming. Be happy I haven;t reported you. I gave you a dictionary source to show you that one of the meanings for FOR supported my case. None of the other meanings fit the sentence.
 
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