God gives them what they want

[JohnB445]

I had a interesting conversation with another Christian a few days ago. Here is what I picked up.

God created man in his image, and one of the traits is free will, and man knows the difference between good and evil and it is up for him to choose to do good or evil.

Those who choose evil ultimately chose to go to hell, and that is where they actually want to go.

A evil sinner doesn't want to be in heaven because heaven will be torturous for him because he will not be able to do the things he loves which is sinning against God.

Also sinners love pain so that's why they go there too.

Jesus only called the sinners to repentance, and changed their hearts.

The ones that don't want to be changed and born again made their decision.

 

[SeventyOne]

I had a interesting conversation with another Christian a few days ago. Here is what I picked up.

God created man in his image, and one of the traits is free will, and man knows the difference between good and evil and it is up for him to choose to do good or evil.

Those who choose evil ultimately chose to go to hell, and that is where they actually want to go.

A evil sinner doesn't want to be in heaven because heaven will be torturous for him because he will not be able to do the things he loves which is sinning against God.

Also sinners love pain so that's why they go there too.

Jesus only called the sinners to repentance, and changed their hearts.

The ones that don't want to be changed and born again made their decision.

I seriously doubt all the people there will prefer to be there than in Heaven. I know some living now who openly declare they hate God and prefer hell, and even had a relative cursing God as she died. I would say she made a firm decision.

On the other hand, you'll find passages like Matthew 7:21-23, where people are surprised to find themselves heading there on Judgement Day, and they appeal to their works as to why they should not go. Those people never wanted to go there at all. Unfortunately, one can see what these people live like right here on this forum, as those who swear up and down that salvation can be lost unless we do {insert act here} to keep ourselves saved. I suspect many, if not all, of those people will be part of this group.

 

[Pethesedzao]

I had a interesting conversation with another Christian a few days ago. Here is what I picked up.

God created man in his image, and one of the traits is free will, and man knows the difference between good and evil and it is up for him to choose to do good or evil.

Those who choose evil ultimately chose to go to hell, and that is where they actually want to go.

A evil sinner doesn't want to be in heaven because heaven will be torturous for him because he will not be able to do the things he loves which is sinning against God.

Also sinners love pain so that's why they go there too.

Jesus only called the sinners to repentance, and changed their hearts.

The ones that don't want to be changed and born again made their decision.

Preach the gospel and leave the rest to the Holy Spirit to convict men of their need of Jesus.

 

[bèlla]

I don't believe that and I've spent time in the company of many atheists. I think it's dangerous to make assumptions about a person's belief without knowing their backstory. We're too quick to judge. Many people are disenfranchised about religion because of its practitioners.

People aren't reading the bible. They're reading you.

 

[BobRyan]

I had a interesting conversation with another Christian a few days ago. Here is what I picked up.

God created man in his image, and one of the traits is free will, and man knows the difference between good and evil and it is up for him to choose to do good or evil.

The same could be said of Angels. Lucifer had free will and so also the angels such that 1/3 of them chose to follow him in their "war in heaven".

Also sinners love pain so that's why they go there too.

No that is not true. The worst criminal in prison does not say "please torture me" or "please execute me today".

Jesus only called the sinners to repentance

True - and all have sinned - Romans 3:23

The ones that don't want to be changed and born again made their decision.

True -

"The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin" John 16
"I will draw ALL mankind to Me" John 12:32
"God is not willing that ANY should perish but that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3.
Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE could I do that I have not already done?"
1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD"
John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD that He gave"
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

And yet it is the "many" that go to hell in Matthew 7 prediction of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

We're too quick to judge. Many people are disenfranchised about religion because of its practitioners.

People aren't reading the bible. They're reading you.

Not reading the Bible - is to be subject to every wind of doctrine, every idea that floats along, every bad-case, bad-actor that comes your way.

Eph 4
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

Even of the Non-Christians it was said -- "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul -- were so" Acts 17:11

And you are right - we as Christians should not be a non-Bible aware road block to the non-Christians as if not-reading the Bible were 'a good thing'.

 

[bèlla]

Not reading the Bible - is to be subject to every wind of doctrine, every idea that floats along, every bad-case, bad-actor that comes your way.

I don't expect unbelievers to read the bible nor do I make the assumption they have. I meet people where they are. That has served me well.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't expect unbelievers to read the bible nor do I make the assumption they have. I meet people where they are. That has served me well.

Even of the Non-Christians it was said -- "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul -- were so" Acts 17:11

And you are right - we as Christians should not be a non-Bible aware road block to the non-Christians as if not-reading the Bible were 'a good thing'. We should be trained to explain the text of scripture so well that a non-Christian easily gets the meaning. When Paul met the pagan Greeks in Athens he presents the teaching of the Bible - in a way they could easily understand.

 

[bèlla]

Even of the Non-Christians it was said -- "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul -- were so" Acts 17:11

I disagree with your OP. Repeating yourself won't change that.

 

[Albion]

I had a interesting conversation with another Christian a few days ago. Here is what I picked up.

God created man in his image, and one of the traits is free will, and man knows the difference between good and evil and it is up for him to choose to do good or evil.

Those who choose evil ultimately chose to go to hell, and that is where they actually want to go.

A evil sinner doesn't want to be in heaven because heaven will be torturous for him because he will not be able to do the things he loves which is sinning against God.

Also sinners love pain so that's why they go there too.

Jesus only called the sinners to repentance, and changed their hearts.

The ones that don't want to be changed and born again made their decision.

More or less, that is what Emmanuel Swedenborg contended is the case. There are Christian churches that subscribe to his views (if you are interested in pursuing it).

 

[com7fy8]

I had a interesting conversation with another Christian a few days ago. Here is what I picked up.

Those who choose evil ultimately chose to go to hell, and that is where they actually want to go.

I seriously doubt all the people there will prefer to be there than in Heaven.

I don't think anyone likes torment, but we can be so stubborn about what we need to do which is right.

Satan knows there is hell; yet the Bible says he is angry because his time is short. He knows and he does not repent.

He is so stubborn, that fire is the only way, really, to control him . . . I consider.

And we see how so many humans refuse to listen to warnings about how smoking can destroy them and their lives. They have the proof, right in their faces!! They don't care at all about evidence, then, really. And they keep smoking around children, and letting tobacco be available to young people.

Even practically, this shows how humans also can be so stubborn. So, what can control them, then? Where will this be??

Heaven is not about controlling. We are filled with love to do what we do, in Jesus.

 

[Pethesedzao]

I don't believe that and I've spent time in the company of many atheists. I think it's dangerous to make assumptions about a person's belief without knowing their backstory. We're too quick to judge. Many people are disenfranchised about religion because of its practitioners.

People aren't reading the bible. They're reading you.

Anyone who does not believe in Jesus is under the wrath of God.

 

[bèlla]

Anyone who does not believe in Jesus is under the wrath of God.

As a former agnostic and near atheist I will press on in love instead. The Holy Spirit hasn't directed me to behave otherwise.

 

[com7fy8]

I had a interesting conversation with another Christian a few days ago. Here is what I picked up.

A evil sinner doesn't want to be in heaven because heaven will be torturous for him because he will not be able to do the things he loves which is sinning against God.

Also sinners love pain so that's why they go there too.

I hope, by now, that you know we humans can each have unique ideas about things And, therefore, no one can speak for anyone else, right? I offer I understand you are simply sharing what this particular person has said, and you know full well that one person claiming to be a Christian can not possibly represent all. These certainly are ideas that are . . . interesting.

So - - yeah, you do say, right at the beginning of your post, how the conversation was "interesting".

You say that the person said that the sinner won't be at home in Heaven, since the sinner wants to sin against God. Well, I think more accurately we can say the person's selfish nature will be about what is not available in Heaven, and such pleasures are so inferior to Jesus and how it is to be with God in His love.

But the torment will not be only not having selfish pleasures > "our God is a consuming fire," we have in Hebrews 12:29. Sinners in their nature experience being burnt by God, I understand. It is their nature, then, which is a major part of their problem. You can see how ones selfish are weak enough to go after foolish pleasures, then their weakness has them able to suffer all the pain of not getting what they dictate they have to have. So, even now already, they are so available for torment, and it is not the fire's fault!!!!

So, God is not interested in them suffering like this; this is part of why >

"God resists the proud" (in James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5).

God is not only letting sinners make whatever choices they please, in their so-called free wills which are in slavery to Satan. By the way, then, they are not free > Hebrews 2:14-15 > 1 John 4:18.

In their "fear of death", they suffer "torment", already, because of not living in God's love (Romans 5:5). What they are in is not freedom which I would wish on anyone.

And God is more caring than I am; therefore He resists these people so they do not keep going in the direction where they are heading, and so they don't get into even worse pain and tragedy than what they already get into . . . now.

 

[AvgJoe]

I had a interesting conversation with another Christian a few days ago. Here is what I picked up.

God created man in his image, and one of the traits is free will, and man knows the difference between good and evil and it is up for him to choose to do good or evil.

Those who choose evil ultimately chose to go to hell, and that is where they actually want to go.

A evil sinner doesn't want to be in heaven because heaven will be torturous for him because he will not be able to do the things he loves which is sinning against God.

Also sinners love pain so that's why they go there too.

Jesus only called the sinners to repentance, and changed their hearts.

The ones that don't want to be changed and born again made their decision.

I agree with post #2, there will be a multitude of people who thought they were saved and are surprised to find themselves being thrown into hell. But what about the people who aren't saved, don't think that they're saved, do they really want to go to hell?

When there are only two choices, and you choose against one, it does not mean that you want the other, if you are ignorant of the outcome of both. Unbelieving people know neither God nor hell. The person who rejects God does not know the real horrors of hell. He is not, at that point, preferring the real hell over the real God. He is blind to both. He does not perceive the true glories of God, and he does not perceive the true horrors of hell.

So when a person chooses against God and, therefore, de facto chooses hell — or when he jokes about preferring hell with his friends over heaven with boring religious people — he does not know what he is doing. What he rejects is not the real heaven (nobody will be boring in heaven), and what he wants is not the real hell, but the tolerable hell of his imagination.

www.desiringgod.org/articles/how-willingly-do-people-go-to-hell

 

[com7fy8]

there will be a multitude of people who thought they were saved and are surprised to find themselves being thrown into hell.

Among other things, Jesus says,

"if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" in Matthew 5:46.

So, by being conceited, feeling we are better than others so we do not care to love them > this conceit is on its way to hell!!!!

Jesus was in Heaven itself, when He decided to come here to reach us and care for us and save us and share His own good with us. So, Jesus and Heaven are not at all about the conceit of picking and choosing who is good enough for us to love.

But God is all-loving. And plenty of people are "burnt" about loving unselfishly > this gives them motive to avoid Jesus. They possibly actually feel they are too good for Jesus . . . so they have a conceit problem, to say the least. They need to dump that and get into God's all-loving love, instead.

But what about the people who aren't saved, don't think that they're saved, do they choose hell?

I think it's a character issue, not only about choices. If someone does not have and grow in the character of Christ's way of loving; then what is in them, really, and where is it going?

About those who do not know > Luke 12:48 < I consider that this is because one's character has so much to do with it, and not only what someone knows and does.

 

[BobRyan]

I disagree with your OP. Repeating yourself won't change that.

1. I did not write the OP.
2. I am fine with disagreement. Everyone has free will. You can choose as you wish.
3. I repeat the details so that the flow of conversation is easily seen by all readers without having to piece it all back from some "yep... nope... we differ... ok..." snip posts.

 

[bèlla]

1. I did not write the OP.
2. I am fine with disagreement. Everyone has free will. You can choose as you wish.
3. I repeat the details so that the flow of conversation is easily seen by all readers without having to piece it all back from some "yep... nope... we differ... ok..." snip posts.

My mistake. You didn't write the OP but the lone example of repetition was to me. That seemed odd. Nevertheless, it is errant to make assumptions about a person's disbelief. There are many who have been harmed or grew up in oppressive environments where religion was a hammer and not the instrument of love and guidance that Christ exhibited.

I don't have an issue conveying my faith or the Word understandably. I've never forgotten from whence I came. That keeps me grounded and relatable.

 

[BobRyan]

My mistake. You didn't write the OP but the lone example of repetition was to me. That seemed odd. Nevertheless, it is errant to make assumptions about a person's disbelief. ..

I am not trying to assume anything about someone else's beliefs.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Those who choose evil ultimately chose to go to hell, and that is where they actually want to go.

A evil sinner doesn't want to be in heaven because heaven will be torturous for him because he will not be able to do the things he loves which is sinning against God.

Also sinners love pain so that's why they go there too.

I don't think your friend has a realistic view of Hell.