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God formed the universe/world out of water?

Discussion in 'Creationism' started by Valetic, Aug 20, 2018.

  1. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

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    I just reread Genesis chapters 1-3 again today after a few months since becoming a YEC, and I just thought of something really interesting. If the average person read this stuff for the first time what would he think? That's how I wanted to interpret it.

    2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

    So I'll pause right here just to say this. It looks as though, to me, that the whole universe was submerged in water after reading this, and God created the firmament (sky/Heaven(s)) to divide the water above the firmament from the water below the firmament.

    Here's the main point I am about to make. The sky is blue. Could ancient civilizations have held to the belief that during the day the sky seems to be like an ocean and there is an expanse of sky that separates the water above from the water below?

    9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

    Some people have come up with all kinds of theories to explain this, and I have held to the canopy theory myself, but now I am kind of on the verge of throwing that theory out after thinking of this.

    20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    Just pointing out that He made birds out of the waters. So obviously there is water above the firmament and below the firmament according to the bible. He has given the name "Seas" to the waters below the firmament but no name to the waters above the firmament. Reading this, it would appear God created the fish out of the "Seas" because that would just make sense. And that He would have created the birds out of the water above the firmament because again that would just make sense.

    I haven't thrown away the canopy theory just yet but here is another point again that is less relevant to the rest of the OP.

    Genesis 2

    5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

    Simply put - no vegetation had grown yet.

    6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

    From reading this, it would appear that, in this perfect state, there would be no need for rain on the Earth like we see now, because a mist was coming up from the ground - saturating the earth with water for the plants. So it makes me wonder what the open sky looked like when they looked up, whether there was a canopy or not.. Just a random thought.

    More relevance here: 2 Peter 3:5

    King James Bible
    For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water

    New American Standard Bible
    For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water

    New International Version
    But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water

    New Living Translation
    They deliberately forget that God made the heavens by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water

    English Standard Version
    For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God

    Berean Study Bible
    But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water

    Berean Literal Bible
    For this is concealed from them willingly, that heavens existed long ago and the earth, having been composed out of water and through water, by the word of God

    It is traditionally held that Moses is the author of Genesis, but it is unknown for sure. So it makes me wonder who wrote it and if it really was the inspired word of God or if it was what was traditionally believed in those days (the creation story of Genesis).

    Again it just hit me today - the sky is blue, it looks like a great ocean out there during the day. And by night it has the "lesser lights" shining through that God created on day 4 of Genesis 1. So it makes me wonder was this creation story written from observation or by the spoken word of God?

    Where is the water above the firmament? Was it the canopy theory from pre flood or is it outside the bounds of the universe?

    Psalm 148:4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

    3heavens.jpg

    What do you think?
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
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  2. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    A literal reading of Genesis 1 would suggest that God formed the earth from primordial matter, out of the primordial ocean. Genesis 1 is about God giving order and structure to the cosmos.

    But that is also, in part, a reason why I don't think a literal reading of Genesis should be insisted upon; the point of the text isn't to describe a scientific-level description of how the cosmos came to be, but to demonstrate God's power above all of creation, that all things are the result of His handiwork and purpose.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  3. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Water is a big deal in scripture. You'll find even more with further study.


    What Does the Bible Say About Water? - OpenBible.info

    The Scriptural Use Of An Archetype: Water | Bible.org

    Scientists Discover The Oldest, Largest Body Of Water In Existence–In Space

     
  4. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

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    Then why would He include it in the bible if that's all He wanted to do? People in Jesus times actually believed there was water above the sky. The psalmist in chapter 148 told the waters above the heavens to praise God so they must have believed it too. If it wasn't true why would it be in there?
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  5. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The passage, at this point, only speaks of the earth, not the entire universe.

    The passage also reflects man's understanding that there is water above the earth (i.e. in the clouds that bring the rain), on the surface of the earth, and even under the earth.

    If the Bible documents the creation of the universe, it is back at the point that God says ... "Let there be Light". From that point on, or before, the universe exists in some form or other.
     
  6. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This sort of fits with an evolutionary methodology, where ALL LIFE originates in the primordial sea.
     
  7. exitstageright

    exitstageright Newbie

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    Well the Earth is 75% water. And, the cells in are bodies are 70% water.That is why it is so important for us to stay hydrated, by drinking plenty of water.
     
  8. exitstageright

    exitstageright Newbie

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    As I told a fellow Laboratory Scientist, when I worked at Stanford Medical Center, "The Bible is not a Science Book. The Bible is a......Faith Book."
     
  9. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member

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    Its not a how-to Book.. Genesis was not giving you a how to create a planet in 6 days book..

    Water is representative throughout the Bible of God's Grace, His provision, salvation, faith.. it's all represented by water, because water is necessary to life and so God shows it as representing also what we need for eternal life as well..

    So, when God is showing you all these things, He is pointing to necessary provision made for His creation in the heavenly realms and the earth, where concerns both creations eternal as well as physical necessities to life.

    While the above im sure is a lazy way of explaining it, there is neither anything silly or untrue in Genesis.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  10. oldrunner

    oldrunner Member Supporter

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    Best book about this-if I recall, is Walt Brown, In The Beginning. Lot of good info. I need to get another copy. :(

    http://www.creationscience.com/

    If I remember right, he believes the firmament was broken by super pressurized water shooting up from the fountains of the deep. When it came back down it freeze dried animals-like the wholly Mammoth.

    So yes, the firmament kept radiation from people and animals in the first world, helping them live long lifespans. It probably did have a weird effect as people looked at the stars, and could of magnified them too. Could of been like a hyperbaric chamber too-in the first world, with more oxygen in the atmosphere and greater pressure allowing really big animals to operate and live.
     
  11. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    Virtually every creation myth worldwide begins in the sea, but at the same time chaos exists. The sea is chaotic. From the sea, order arises from the creator.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
  12. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    When I read it, I picture that the earth was smooth (void of shape - no mountains or valleys).

    Soil sinks in water, so the water was "covering the face of the deep". We understand plate tectonics these days, to know that the weight of water causes seas and continents to appear.

    The water above the firmament says "clouds" in my mind .. and I do know that the rain did not come until much later, but there is still water above the firmament in the form of clouds, even when it doesn't rain. I wonder how much of tht knowledge of the clouds came into the writer's mind as he was saying it..

    I am also inclined to consider that the tilting of earth's axis may not have been so pronounced in those days, which would have reduced seasonal variations. Lack of seasonal variation combined with relatively smooth terrain would permit clouds to be much easier sustained without precipitation as rain.

    It is all speculative, of course, so it is careless to form doctrine about it. There is no less wisdom to be gained by reading it accordingly.
     
  13. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

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    I used to think that too as a kid, but when I thought about it today, I wondered how it could be clouds when the bible also says in Genesis 1...

    14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

    So when I think it could be the clouds, now I reflect back at these verses here and say to myself, "Well, the clouds can obviously be seen under the sun, moon, and stars, so that would mean that the clouds must be inside the firmament of the heavens too if the water above the firmament was not the clouds, since this is something people even in ancient times could observe."

    After observing these things, I have to wonder if the psalmist in chapter 148 was talking about the clouds or not.

    Also, did it even rain before the flood with Noah since Genesis 2:6 says, "But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground."?

    There are no passages that indicate rain before the flood in the bible that I could find, and I don't want to say it didn't but I can theorize it didn't. So if that were true would there even be clouds? Again I must say when post-flood people looked up they saw nothing but never ending blue "out there" kind of like a great sea we are standing out of.

    I wonder...
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  14. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

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    Really? You don't think it was here...?

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
     
  15. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    There comes a time when we realise the story is telling us much more about creation than what we see in the physical realm, otherwise it would be creeping dangerously toward idolatry where the word "memshalah (dominion)" indicates that the sun and moon rule with authority .. and yet the carnal man (1 Corinthians 2:14-16) doesn't see anything except the carnal realm. So scholars of scripture come with various degrees of understanding, and those who teach have different authority accordingly. When I read the Psalms 148 therefore, I recognise that the writer doesn't have the same degree of the depth of knowledge that the writer of Genesis had (in terms of divine language), and the whole Psalm is really an expression of praise. You and I both know that even the blindest of the blind and the simplest of them all is capable of singing the highest praise! .. but it does force us to think. What on earth did he have in mind when he wrote that? .. and I agree, that the only answer I have at the moment, is that when the sky goes dark and there is some residual blue, to a primitive man whose concept of creation was based upon what he had learned of the Genesis account, it would seem a safe assumption in the sight of God, to believe there was water beyond the firmament in which the stars were set..

    It's a very interesting finding, thank you :wave:
     
  16. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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  17. oldrunner

    oldrunner Member Supporter

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    Yeah, it didn't rain. And also, I see the first two verses as an overview. Then the details. Just like chapter 2, then He goes into detail on the creation of man, sprinkling in some details not noted in chapter 1. Mat 24, and the book of Revelation does this too-overview, forward, back, forward.

    I'm reading a book now by Nelson Walters, "Revelation Deciphered", and he thinks the order of creation is actually a prophecy also- that goes along with each day of creation. A 7000 year program where the "rest" of the 7th year = the 1000 year reign of the Messiah on the Earth.

    Using the 2nd Peter 3:5-8, and suggesting there is only a 6000 year plan, then the Day of the Lord- before the Kingdom comes. Mans # is 6- being created on the 6th day, so the last 1000 years was mans dominion. And we have pretty well subdued it about as much as we can.

    2nd Peter 3:8, gives us the clue of the 1 day = 1000 year, and the whole prophecy/warning is about the second coming and the Day off the Lord, and directing us back to the creation account and flood... Interesting subject study, the Day of the Lord. :oldthumbsup: We're getting close!

    Not sure I buy into all he says in the book, but he has some good insights tying Scripture to Scripture, and I do believe God has a 7000 year plan, and we got to be close to the 6000 year- and the Day of the Lord. Ussher only has us at about 6000 now-or past a tad. I don't think anyone can really nail it down, but maybe? That is why we watch for the signs the Scripture teaches. Just like the Jews knew around the first coming about the prophecies and were expectant. :)
     
  18. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

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    Oh now that is something
     
  19. Pastor Ryan Johnson

    Pastor Ryan Johnson New Member Supporter

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    Please help us fight evolution and remind the world of our Creator (Film)!
    www.ib7movie.org
     
  20. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Out of nothing.
     
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