God does not grant Faith

[Devorim]

Your statement in #9 was, 'G-d gives faith in Him, not at birth, but long before birth according to the Scriptures. Those to whom He gives it will never lose it'

I was expecting your verses to relate directly to this statement and they didn't.

I suppose I should have added verses in which it is written that people were called upon conception. I left those out. Sorry!

 

[FreeGrace2]

You didn't deal with the point I raised: pisteuo and pistis come from the same Greek root.

What's to deal with? Referring to verb and noun, or what?

 

[FreeGrace2]

G-d gives faith in Him, not at birth, but long before birth according to the Scriptures. Those to whom He gives it will never lose it

Is there a verse to support this claim? Please share.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The carnal man is at enmity with God and does not and cannot have saving faith on his own, unless God grants it to him.

Is there a verse to support this claim? Please share.

 

[Devorim]

Is there a verse to support this claim? Please share.

(Frustration.) I did. Above.

But that's okay....

 

[South Bound]

Is there a verse to support this claim? Please share.

Yes. Romans 8:7-8

 

[OzSpen]

What's to deal with? Referring to verb and noun, or what?

It deals with the etymology of the word - the origin and development of the word.

 

[FreeGrace2]

(Frustration.) I did. Above.

But that's okay....

No, not ok. The verses don't say what has been claimed. But I'm sure it appears they do to some.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked for a verse to support this statement:
"G-d gives faith in Him, not at birth, but long before birth according to the Scriptures. Those to whom He gives it will never lose it"

Yes. Romans 8:7-8

OK, let's look at the passage:
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

There is no reference at all to God giving faith "long before birth", much less at any time, or that to those He gives it will never lose it in these 2 verses.

Please identify the specific word and word placement that indicates that God gives faith long before birth and to whose He gives it will never lose it.

 

[Devorim]

Okay. So I am learning not to be Arminian because I have not seen Arminianism to work. I know that; you've now been told that. I am not joining in this little fight. Sorry!

 

[South Bound]

I asked for a verse to support this statement:
"G-d gives faith in Him, not at birth, but long before birth according to the Scriptures. Those to whom He gives it will never lose it"

No, you didn't. You quoted me stating "The carnal man is at enmity with God and does not and cannot have saving faith on his own, unless God grants it to him". You responded by saying, "Is there a verse to support this claim? Please share."

There is no reference at all to God giving faith "long before birth", much less at any time, or that to those He gives it will never lose it in these 2 verses.

Because that's not what you asked for.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Okay. So I am learning not to be Arminian because I have not seen Arminianism to work. I know that; you've now been told that. I am not joining in this little fight. Sorry!

One has to wonder who this post was directed to. I would agree with you about Arminianism; it doesn't work. Neither does Calvinism, but that's for another thread.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, you didn't. You quoted me stating "The carnal man is at enmity with God and does not and cannot have saving faith on his own, unless God grants it to him". You responded by saying, "Is there a verse to support this claim? Please share."

Because that's not what you asked for.

Apparently I've asked that question to several people. The problem with this forum set up is that you lose the context in subsequent posts, so one must dig back into the pages to find the subject.

Sure. I'm quite familiar with Col 1:29 about God granting to believe. When God provides the gospel (message) and a messenger, that's how He "grants to believe". We see this principle in Rom 10:14-15.

Are there any verses that teach that God causes anyone to believe? That is the real question and issue. Calvinism claims that God is the primary cause of believing in Christ. They base that on God regenerating the "elect" so that they will believe.

But I haven't found any verses to support that. If your view is that, what verse or verses are there to support such a view?

Thanks.

 

[Devorim]

I would think that is obvious. Still, I brought it up. Perhaps you did not notice....Seriously? One can believe in G-d without having faith in Him? He can choose us as holy and blameless before the foundation of the world but not give us faith?

To OzSpen, as the post indicated.

I understand that some of us don't believe that we are saved from the foundation of the world. No problem for me. I was Arminian (can you believe it??) for nearly half of a decade, and now, I am learning about Reformed doctrines, tulips, Calvin, five points on both sides, and more. Again, no problem for me.

To Job8, as the post indicated.

I suppose I should have added verses in which it is written that people were called upon conception. I left those out. Sorry!

To OzSpen, as the post indicated.

(Frustration.) I did. Above....But that's okay....

To FreeGrace, as the post indicated.

One has to wonder who this post was directed to. I would agree with you about Arminianism; it doesn't work. Neither does Calvinism, but that's for another thread.

Okay. So I am learning not to be Arminian because I have not seen Arminianism to work. I know that; you've now been told that. I am not joining in this little fight. Sorry!

Perhaps not well indicated, but this directly followed FreeGrace's post, so I thought you might think it was to FreeGrace.

We do not all come to CF fully learned and/or fully informed. I do not come here as a teacher; rather I came here as a learner. There are certain things I know and many that I do not know. I DO know that Calvinism is very imperfect. No, I did not write that before, but I also did not bring up Calvinism in this thread that I can remember.

I also know that Arminianism is very imperfect: that I have written many times.

Come on, people! Teach, please, but don't just pop in here and trounce your students!

--------------------------------------

I did, indeed, bring up Calvinism when I wrote, "and now, I am learning about Reformed doctrines, tulips, Calvin, five points on both sides, and more." I apologize profoundly about my oversight. Oh, please! Forgive me! (written tongue-in-cheek )

 

[dogs4thewin]

ANY time ANYONE sits in a chair they have faith, gets behind the wheel. If I conduct a business deal what does the court usually require in terms of fulfilling my duties of a contract that I make a good what effort. Thus, every time I would make a business deal I better have what in the other person.

 

[Devorim]

Having an element of faith in general things is far different from having faith in Messiah, but I think this has already been brought up here.
??

 

[FreeGrace2]

We do not all come to CF fully learned and/or fully informed. I do not come here as a teacher; rather I came here as a learner. There are certain things I know and many that I do not know. I DO know that Calvinism is very imperfect. No, I did not write that before, but I also did not bring up Calvinism in this thread that I can remember.

I also know that Arminianism is very imperfect: that I have written many times.

Come on, people! Teach, please, but don't just pop in here and trounce your students!

The only thing we have that is perfect is God's Word. The key for one's theology must be what can be clearly stated in God's Word. Which is why both Arminianism and Calvinism are imperfect. What each claims cannot be found stated in a very clear and direct way. (both sides think Scriptures support their claims, but with verses that do NOT say what they claim. many examples can be cited.)

Perhaps the best way to learn is to ask questions, and weigh the responses to your questions. It seems most who post here have very deeply dug in views, and will not be persuaded by anything, including Scripture that clearly refutes their own views. Many examples can be shown.

I'd be happy to answer questions. And I'll provide verses that are clear about what they say (and mean).

You'll be free to compare everyone's responses to determine for yourself what makes most sense and aligns with Scripture the best.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Having an element of faith in general things is far different from having faith in Messiah, but I think this has already been brought up here. ??

I thought Dogs4thewin was just making the point that one can place faith or trust in any number of things, people, concepts. The action is the same, but it's the object that is different.

There are 2 essential elements of faith that must be considered; the object of faith, and the purpose of faith.

So, for the purpose of eternal life, the object MUST BE Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

If either element is missing, then there is no saving faith. That is why it is extremely important that people know exactly WHY they believe in Jesus, specifically. The purpose is not for material blessings (health & wealth gospel). It's specifically for eternal life. Sure, we get a lot of other things, but unless one is clear on the reason for said belief, which is eternal life, they don't understand the purpose of WHY He went to the cross.

We can believe in Jesus Christ for many many things. But if eternal life isn't the REASON we are believing in Him, we don't have saving faith.
Why? Because the Bible tells us why we are to believe in Him.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[Job8]

Come on, people! Teach, please, but don't just pop in here and trounce your students!

You were given the Scriptures that teach that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. You simply disregarded then, so you are not really interested in what the Bible has to say about saving faith.

Faith does not come pre-packaged. The whole purpose of the preaching of the Gospel is to generate faith. Go back and read my posts and learn.

 

[Devorim]

The only thing we have that is perfect is God's Word. The key for one's theology must be what can be clearly stated in God's Word....I'd be happy to answer questions. And I'll provide verses that are clear about what they say (and mean).

You'll be free to compare everyone's responses to determine for yourself what makes most sense and aligns with Scripture the best.

Yes -- I do ask questions, but admittedly, I sit on some questions and ask some questions. My problem is that I spent so much time in a faulty church that it is taking lots of time to get all the questions to the surface.

Throughout our first years away from that church, my husband and I learned how to debate each other and did it regularly re many issues. It was good for both of us. Debate is a delight and used often between us, but we have only had one argument in our nearly-28 years of marriage. G-d is good!!

One thing: I take no one's word for anything, whether here or where I worship. I hear or read what people say, then I study it for myself and draw my conclusions from the Bible as best I can. Many things people say/write point me in a direction, then I can proceed from there.