God does not desire to save the Reprobate.

[WinBySurrender]

For your information I do serious Bible study on a constant basis. Daily in fact. I have presented the Biblical view without man's spin on it that makes man the end of everything.

Then why did you abandon such a noble approach in this matter?

BTW I know that I am called of God to teach and preach His Gospel because He has put me in it without me ever having to seek it. I take that responsibility very seriously and know that I will answer to God for what I say to men. I have no fear of standing before God and givimg an answer for what I preach and teach.

If I were preaching what you're preaching, I wouldn't be so sure as you are. But then again, I speak of all aspects of God. He loves all men, yet He hates their sin. And despite that love, He will cast an unrepentant sinner into hell as certainly as He will also cast Satan there. His love will not thwart His justice, and yet He will regret the fate of those who will not heed Him. You need to make that separation, or you aren't preaching God.

 

[98cwitr]

My one hang up in this whole argument, as much as I might agree with the OP:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

οὐ βραδύνει κύριος τῆς ἐπαγγελίας, ὥς τινες βραδύτητα ἡγοῦνται, ἀλλὰ μακροθυμεῖ εἰς ὑμᾶς, μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι.

 

[Blessedj01]

Then why did you abandon such a noble approach in this matter?If I were preaching what you're preaching, I wouldn't be so sure as you are. But then again, I speak of all aspects of God. He loves all men, yet He hates their sin. And despite that love, He will cast an unrepentant sinner into hell as certainly as He will also cast Satan there. His love will not thwart His justice, and yet He will regret the fate of those who will not heed Him. You need to make that separation, or you aren't preaching God.

If anyone disagrees with this right here, well...you're wrong.

 

[VCViking]

God doesn't love the sinner? Right, so I guess this Christianity thing is useless then huh...

...off I go, because God doesn't love the sinner.

Psalm 5:5 THOU HATEST ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY.

Psalm 7:11-13: “...God is ANGRY with the wicked every day. If he turn not, He will whet His sword; He hath bent His bow, and made it ready. He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; He ordaineth His arrows against the persecutors.”

Psalm 11:5-7: “The Lord trieth the righteous: but THE WICKED AND HIM THAT LOVETH VIOLENCE HIS SOUL HATETH. Upon the wicked He shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness...”

Proverbs 6:16-19: “These six things doth THE LORD HATE: yea, seven are AN ABOMINATION TO HIM... A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among the brethren.”

Hosea 9:15: “All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I HATED THEM: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of Mine house, I WILL LOVE THEM NO MORE...”

I Corinthians 16:22: “If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be ANATHEMA MARANATHA [which means ACCURSED, THE LORD COMETH].”

IPeter 3:12: “For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open to their prayers: but THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THEM THAT DO EVIL

Revelation 14:10-11: “[Sinners] shall drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD, which is poured without mixture into the cup of HIS INDIGNATION; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS, AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB; And the smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT...”

 

[VCViking]

The most dangerous thing we can do for the sinner is to tell him that God loves him and has a wonderful plan for his life. By doing so we not only misrepresent the love of God but give the sinner hope that the Scriptures never give them. The Scriptures never once tell the rebel sinner that the love of God abides on him, they do clearly tell him that as long as he remains in unblief and rebellion he has no hope in the love of God. John the Baptist plainly says, as do Christ and the Apostles, that it isn't the love of God that abides on the unbeliever but the wrath of God. John 3:36.

The false gospel of God's love is a damning lie straight out of Hell. Satan is gleeful whenever we tell a stiffnecked obstinate God hating sinner that God loves him and wants to save him if he will only let Him. It is not only dishonoring to God but a lie.

Those whom God loves He sends the Gospel to in the power of the Spirit giving life and faith in Christ. To preach the Gospel is to tell sinners that God's love is in His Son and only in His Son. We preach Christ and Him crucified and leave the rest to God.

I don't concern myself with who God loves because that is up to Him. I do concern myself that men do great harm to the wonder and glory of the love of God by telling God hating rebels that He loves them.
I also concern myself that much more harm is done to the souls of men by this false gospel of God's universal love than we could ever do.

To teach or preach that God loves all men without exception not only is a blatant denial of the plain statements of the Scriptures but destroys the love of God and makes it meaningless.

Sounds good to me.

 

[Blessedj01]

Psalm 5:5 THOU HATEST ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY.

Psalm 7:11-13: “...God is ANGRY with the wicked every day. If he turn not, He will whet His sword; He hath bent His bow, and made it ready. He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; He ordaineth His arrows against the persecutors.”

Psalm 11:5-7: “The Lord trieth the righteous: but THE WICKED AND HIM THAT LOVETH VIOLENCE HIS SOUL HATETH. Upon the wicked He shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness...”

Proverbs 6:16-19: “These six things doth THE LORD HATE: yea, seven are AN ABOMINATION TO HIM... A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among the brethren.”

Hosea 9:15: “All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I HATED THEM: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of Mine house, I WILL LOVE THEM NO MORE...”

I Corinthians 16:22: “If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be ANATHEMA MARANATHA [which means ACCURSED, THE LORD COMETH].”

IPeter 3:12: “For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open to their prayers: but THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THEM THAT DO EVIL

Revelation 14:10-11: “[Sinners] shall drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD, which is poured without mixture into the cup of HIS INDIGNATION; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS, AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB; And the smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT...”

Yet Christ died for our sins. He wouldn't have done that if His wrath outweighed His love for us.

You're quoting scripture at one angle. There's other ways to look at scripture other than to conclude that God hates everybody and doesn't love them at all, nor will ever love them.

 

[Hupomone10]

You need to take a chill pill, calm down and get into some serious Bible study. Where in the name of all that is good and right did you get this nonsense? You are presenting only one side of God's character and ignoring His deity. God hates, yes -- but without malice. God loves, absolutely -- but without partiality. You obviously don't understand that. Nor have you read Matthew.

Matthew 5
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
​

Or do you think God holds Himself to a lesser standard that He holds man? Get out of the 17th century and join us here in the 21st.

WinbySurrender,

Thanks for making this point. You and I have had differences in the past, but the point you are making is valid and important.

Take courage in the fact that, aside from warning others we are only responsible for our own teaching, and take comfort in having been given a foundation in pure Scriptural truth instead of a doctrinal system that defends itself even to the point of denying clear Scriptural truth.

Blessings,
H.

 

[Hupomone10]

There is no well meant offer for someone who God has set apart as a vessel of wrath.
Christ did not die for the reprobate.
The Holy Spirit will not regenerate he reprobate.
The reprobate is accursed.

Osage,

How do you define "reprobate"?


Does someone who changes from Christian to say, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Muslim, become a reprobate?

Or are they only an apostate only; and is there a real difference or does God view the apostate similarly?

H.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Osage,

How do you define "reprobate"?

Does someone who changes from Christian to say, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Muslim, become a reprobate?

Or are they only an apostate only; and is there a real difference or does God view the apostate similarly?

H.

A reprobate is a person who is destined to damnation by God. Their identity is known only to him until the judgement.

 

[Blessedj01]

So you and I could be reprobates and not even know it?

 

[WinBySurrender]

Psalm 5:5 THOU HATEST ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY.

Psalm 7:11-13: “...God is ANGRY with the wicked every day. If he turn not, He will whet His sword; He hath bent His bow, and made it ready. He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; He ordaineth His arrows against the persecutors.”

Psalm 11:5-7: “The Lord trieth the righteous: but THE WICKED AND HIM THAT LOVETH VIOLENCE HIS SOUL HATETH. Upon the wicked He shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness...”

Proverbs 6:16-19: “These six things doth THE LORD HATE: yea, seven are AN ABOMINATION TO HIM... A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among the brethren.”

Hosea 9:15: “All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I HATED THEM: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of Mine house, I WILL LOVE THEM NO MORE...”

I Corinthians 16:22: “If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be ANATHEMA MARANATHA [which means ACCURSED, THE LORD COMETH].”

IPeter 3:12: “For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open to their prayers: but THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THEM THAT DO EVIL

Revelation 14:10-11: “[Sinners] shall drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD, which is poured without mixture into the cup of HIS INDIGNATION; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS, AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB; And the smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT...”

Jesus also says ...

Luke 14
26 "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."
​

Which "contradicts" ...

Matthew 19:19
19 "HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
​

So which is it? Does Jesus expect us to violate "the first commandment with a promise" in order to follow Him? Or does He want us use our heads and not our favorite doctrines to understand Scripture?

We need to understand the use of exclusives and hyperboles in first century language. If one doesn't understand them, and one attempts to read these statements, and others, such as "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated" without that understanding, then one is going to reach very erroneous conclusions about them. Many will try to tell you the word miseo, translated "hate" in Luke 14:26, has a relative meaning such that Jesus isn't really saying to hate your family. But that's not the case. Miseo, plain and simply, means "hate." But Jesus never contradicts Himself, so how can Luke 14:26 stand in comparison to Matthew 19:19? This is where the understanding of exclusives and hyperboles comes into play.

Critics may complain, but they do so without knowledge of the ancient principles of rhetoric (as expressed by writers like Quintillion) and exaggeration (as is found typically on Ancient Near Eastern war inscriptions and elsewhere; see below). But we must emphasize the absurdity that will result if we ignore the nature and purpose of exclusive language.

For example, the laws of our country speak in exclusive terms. A sign that says "Speed Limit 55" is absolute. It does not specify exceptions such as ambulance drivers or people who have passengers who become deathly sick. Yet no judge would penalize an ambulance driver or other person who dared exempt himself for such valid reasons from the absolute language of the law on that sign. This is how our language works. We do not deal in exclusives and hyperboles on a regular basis. Facts and the integrity of a statement are of great concern to us. But we cannot apply the rigidity of English to other languages, particularly ancient ones. Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek all use these patterns of expressing thought.

Rameses II proclaimed an inscription by recorded that "I slew the Denyon in their islands, while the Tjekker and Philistines were made ashes. The Sherden and the Washesh of the sea were made non-existent, captured all together and brought on captivity to Egypt like the sands of the shore."

So, if he slew all the Denyon, the Tjekker and Philistines were made ashes and the Sherden and Washesh were "made non-existent," who were Rameses' captives? This is hyperbole at its best. This is how the authors of the period before Christ and for a good portion of the first 700 years afterwards, wrote. And as I said, you will complain that I "have it all wrong" but the truth is, if I do, then Jesus is a liar and a massive contradiction. But have it your way if you wish.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

So you and I could be reprobates and not even know it?

Read 1 John 5:13

 

[Hupomone10]

A reprobate is a person who is destined to damnation by God. Their identity is known only to him until the judgement.

I don't see how we can disagree with you then.
So, from your OP

Christ did not die for the reprobate.
The Holy Spirit will not regenerate he reprobate.
The reprobate is accursed.

and from this post, you are saying,
Someone for whom Christ did not die (a reprobate),
someone the Holy Spirit will not regenerate (a reprobate) and/or
someone who is accursed
- is a person who is destined to damnation by God.

Isn't that circular reasoning?

H.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Osage Bluestem. St. Matthew, chapter 22, verses 34-40. Jesus tells a Lawyer: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour as thyself." Then Jesus states this truth: " ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS. God is Love, and Jesus came to save Sinners, He died that we might live. Jesus died for ALL, and God wants us All. We have to learn to love, as Jesus tells in the Bible, and Jesus will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will empower us. Jesus told us: " Ask and ye will receive," then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with all around us. (our neighbour) God will see and God will approve and Bless us.
We are all sinners, and Jesus our Saviour, is waiting to guide us back to God our Heavenly Father. " Whosoever will may come," God will not force, or coerce us. God is in Heaven, and Love/Agape is the Key to Heaven. Jesus is our Saviour, He paid the prize we could not pay, and now we are free to return to God, and Jesus will lead us. Jesus died for sinners, all reprobates, and now Jesus is guiding us to become the loving children/sons and daughters, which God wants to live with for eternity. Those who do not want to return to God, will end up in: Outer Darkness, without Gods Love or Light. I say this with love, Osage. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Blessedj01]

Read 1 John 5:13

Yeah, but we could still be reprobates right?

 

[Hammster]

I don't see how we can disagree with you then.
So, from your OP
and from this post, you are saying,
Someone for whom Christ did not die (a reprobate),
someone the Holy Spirit will not regenerate (a reprobate) and/or
someone who is accursed
- is a person who is destined to damnation by God.

Isn't that circular reasoning?

H.

No.

<*(((><

 

[Blessedj01]

According to these guys, God created man who was not a robot and free to sin, but when it comes to salvation...he has no choice and robotically accepts God. According to these guys, people love God for no reason at all other than that they were told to and therefore have to.

 

[twin1954]

Well, all I can say here, is "what do you believe? Where does belief stop and work start?

Do you believe that sin shall not have dominion over you?

Do you believe you will be given a way of escape so when tempted, you do not fall, every time?

Do you believe that your shield of faith WILL quench ALL the fiery arrows of the enemy?

Do you believe that you are no longer in the flesh, but in the spirit, and that you owe the flesh NOTHING?
Do you believe that he that abideth in Him sinneth not?

I can list 40 of these if you like but this suffices for me to make a point. You are correct in your opening remark. Believers do not need to be whipped into shape, for they have come to the end of themselves and reached out to believe the promises of God so that they can become overcomers. The question before us now is "Who is a believer?"

Was the Laodecian church a real church, or just a bunch of tares? Did they need encouragement to not slack off, to believe the promise of God for a robe of Righteousness? Starting out in faith does not make one a believer. Believing the promises of God makes one though. If one sees no need to get all radical on the promises, and shows no desire to fight the good fight of faith, to have ever increasing faith, then perhaps he is a tare afterall. Time will tell.

Blessings,

Gideon

Your Higher Life, Keswickian Santification is nothing new. It had its birth in Wesleyan Perfectionism and has evolved into several offshoots since. It has been shown many times to be both Scripturally unsound an denies the reailty of sin.

You can easily overcome your sin because you still think sin is something you do that is outside of yourself. You think sin is a thing. You haven't yet learned that sin isn't an act that you do or a thing that can be avioded it is a principle within and the very makeup of the flesh. Sin isn't what you do sin is what your are.

The believer is a person of 2 natures: that which is born of God and cannot sin because His seed remains in it, 1John 3:9, a holy nature created in true righteousness and holiness, Eph. 4:24. That new nature is Christ in us and He is all my righteousness and that holiness without which no man shall see the Lord.
And the flesh, the natural man, which is corrupt in its very core and evil in all its being. A nature which cannot and will not bow and cannot and will not be improved. The natural man is not a person that sins he is sin itself.

Sanctification isn't a process through which we, with God's help of course, reform the old man it is a new creation. It is a holy nature that now rules in the heart of every believer. Yet the old man is still in us and there is a daily battle with it in every believer. Gal. 5:17.

You continue to espouse your form of perfectionism by which you overcome your acts of sin and you will no doubt get some followers. I will continue to preach Christ who has overcome sin.

 

[Blessedj01]

You can easily overcome your sin because you still think sin is something you do that is outside of yourself. You think sin is a thing. You haven't yet learned that sin isn't an act that you do or a thing that can be avioded it is a principle within and the very makeup of the flesh. Sin isn't what you do sin is what your are.

Very true. Sin is imperfection, btw. Which is definitive of what we are.

 

[twin1954]

Jesus also says ...

Luke 14
26 "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."
​

Which "contradicts" ...

Matthew 19:19
19 "HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
​

So which is it? Does Jesus expect us to violate "the first commandment with a promise" in order to follow Him? Or does He want us use our heads and not our favorite doctrines to understand Scripture?

We need to understand the use of exclusives and hyperboles in first century language. If one doesn't understand them, and one attempts to read these statements, and others, such as "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated" without that understanding, then one is going to reach very erroneous conclusions about them. Many will try to tell you the word miseo, translated "hate" in Luke 14:26, has a relative meaning such that Jesus isn't really saying to hate your family. But that's not the case. Miseo, plain and simply, means "hate." But Jesus never contradicts Himself, so how can Luke 14:26 stand in comparison to Matthew 19:19? This is where the understanding of exclusives and hyperboles comes into play.

Critics may complain, but they do so without knowledge of the ancient principles of rhetoric (as expressed by writers like Quintillion) and exaggeration (as is found typically on Ancient Near Eastern war inscriptions and elsewhere; see below). But we must emphasize the absurdity that will result if we ignore the nature and purpose of exclusive language.

For example, the laws of our country speak in exclusive terms. A sign that says "Speed Limit 55" is absolute. It does not specify exceptions such as ambulance drivers or people who have passengers who become deathly sick. Yet no judge would penalize an ambulance driver or other person who dared exempt himself for such valid reasons from the absolute language of the law on that sign. This is how our language works. We do not deal in exclusives and hyperboles on a regular basis. Facts and the integrity of a statement are of great concern to us. But we cannot apply the rigidity of English to other languages, particularly ancient ones. Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek all use these patterns of expressing thought.

Rameses II proclaimed an inscription by recorded that "I slew the Denyon in their islands, while the Tjekker and Philistines were made ashes. The Sherden and the Washesh of the sea were made non-existent, captured all together and brought on captivity to Egypt like the sands of the shore."

So, if he slew all the Denyon, the Tjekker and Philistines were made ashes and the Sherden and Washesh were "made non-existent," who were Rameses' captives? This is hyperbole at its best. This is how the authors of the period before Christ and for a good portion of the first 700 years afterwards, wrote. And as I said, you will complain that I "have it all wrong" but the truth is, if I do, then Jesus is a liar and a massive contradiction. But have it your way if you wish.

I am sorry but it isn't hyperbole and all your "edicated" efforts to get around the plain statements are just that, efforts to get aroind a plain statement. In both instances the word hate simply means give no consideration to. Jesus is saying that to follow Him we must give no consideration to our families and God is saying He gives Esau no consideration.
We have perverted hate into a vindictive emotion that desires the destruction of the object of hatred but that isn't the hate of God at all.
For God to hate something is for Him to simply give it no consideration at all. That means He didn't take Esau into account He simply left him to himself.