God created us without a way to stop sinning?

[mikemack]

In the last year I've watched as my faith has taken a large decline. It initially began over the idea of not being able to stop living a lust filled life (but that isn't what this question is about), and after talking to my girlfriend I realized there seems to be this huge hole in my knowledge about living as a sinner.

You see my girlfriend is a social worker, and constantly has to deal with patients who do not have the ability to properly reason. The idea that they need God is almost impossible for some of them to grasp. And the idea that they could stop the sinful ways they live? It's basically impossible. Like asking a potato to run.

Or I have a friend who was sexually abused growing up. He is a smart person, but his whole view on sexuality has completely been distorted. And we basically ask him to just "stop sinning"?

I don't understand it. I can understand a life living in pain, or without something. At least that has taught me something in my journey. But living a life of sin, where hope to remove it is essentially non existent? I don't understand how God can put us in that place. We didn't ask for these things to be part of our lives, they're just there. And we're told we need to remove them from our lives.

 

[Albion]

Kinda makes the Free-will, Works-Righteousness, POV we are treated to so often around here seem really shallow and impossible, don't you think?

I mean, the appeal to "Everyone, listen up. Just do right and be sure you don't slip up at any time before death, unless you have time to confess your sins, of course...and you'll be saved....otherwise, you have only yourself to blame for your eternal demise" sound horribly naïve.

 

[ToBeLoved]

God didn't reconcile us back to Himself for us to walk this life on our own, we walk with Christ. Christ gave us the Holy Spirit. We all are being sanctified continually by Christ. The objective is not to never sin, but to continually become like Jesus through walking with Him in faith.

The 'sinless' life objective we will only reach, if we ever do , through Christ. People talk like they are there, but I've never seen a sinless person yet.

 

[mikemack]

To clarify, I'm not talking about being sinless. I understand that I will always be a sinner.

It's the idea that we are sinners and we can't change. That we are expected to live with certain parts of our lives being sinful.

 

[ToBeLoved]

To clarify, I'm not talking about being sinless. I understand that I will always be a sinner.

It's the idea that we are sinners and we can't change.

I still believe that God's Word teaches the same thing. It is the Holy Spirit who brings us to sanctification within our lives and if we follow Jesus we will learn what God would like us to do and concentrate on. We each have our own calling that the Holy Spirit leads us to.

 

[Greg J.]

mikemack, if you raise children and teach them not to run into the street (and would teach them about looking both ways when they are older), would you like your teaching to have any effect, or do you not care whether that teaching takes hold or not? If in fact you want your teaching to have the intended effect, it means that you believe parents should be able to influence the thinking and actions of their children.

Because you love them, you care quite a lot that they do what you said. In fact, if after they understood what you said, they intentionally ran into the street, wouldn't it be a good idea if they associated that experience with pain? For one, it is closer to the truth of what might happen compared to what their experience would be if nothing bad at all happened. More importantly, it will take that behavior out of the intellectual realm and put it into the experiential and visceral realm. When they got old enough, they would feel distinctly uncomfortable about running into the street whether they remembered why they were uncomfortable about it or not. Due to the experience, it would be easy to not run into the street, whereas if they learned that nothing bad happens when they run into the street, they wouldn't struggle at all about whether or not to run into the street to pet a puppy, and in fact, might learn it is enjoyable to run into the street.

Such children might be prone to explain to other kids that it is OK to run into the street. If they wouldn't stop that, or ignored your instruction and still ran into the street, perhaps you would decide that they shouldn't be allowed to play in the front yard anymore for their own safety and the safety of others.

While it may have never crossed your children's minds, when they are grown and have children of their own. Depending on their life experiences, they could very well not consider it as important to hammer home the same teaching for their children. For those parents it is likely that viscerally speaking, it would be more difficult to punish their children as severely when they disobeyed the instruction to never run into the street.

We're all the product of our ancestor's actions (including those from outside our family). This is because we are not only individuals, we are parts of a greater whole (mankind). We were designed to function in unity with God and other people. Without either we can not function as God wanted. He gave us real free will, which means what you choose to teach your children has some force (action-consequence).

Any of us can choose to turn fully to God and be obedient as best we can and raise our children to do the same, but few do. It has become more and more difficult because we are surrounded by people that didn't. But our experiences are all the consequences of our and our ancestors' actions.

What do you want God to do more than he already is, when 90% (or whatever) of the population has been rejecting his instruction for thousands of years? He created the universe in his image, good actions result in good consequences and evil actions result in evil consequences. This is a part of the revelation of his just nature. In any other environment, we would either not have free will, or our free will would fade into not being free will.

 

[mikemack]

What if you taught your child not to run into the street, and they knew it was bad, but they couldn't stop themselves from doing it?

What I want...is for God to help his children when they want to turn to Him.

 

[Greg J.]

What if the reason they couldn't help themselves is because years ago their farmer father used to sink his arms in undiluted herbicide? Even though no pain has ever come about because it is what God wanted, God still wants to help us, but people don't really want his help, they want pain relief from any source they can find. People that truly commit themselves fully to God absolutely do get his help. It is not always the way a person wants in the time frame they want. Do they think they know what is best for themselves, others connected to them, and those descended from them? Who's playing God in that circumstance? If a person behaves as their own God in certain areas of their life, God will let them. People are enormously ignorant of who they really are, what their situation really is, and why it is that way (which were all ultimately caused by other people's actions), and as a result, don't actually know good paths out of it. Pain relief is at the top of the very deep pits we have been pushed into. When we sin we demonstrate our agreement that it was OK to be pushed into the pit, then we complain we don't want to be in the pit. Sin has consequences that God can't morally just blot out of existence. Our God of all comfort is all for pain relief, but what is best is usually not the elimination of the pain, it is the elimination of the cause of the pain.

 

[mikemack]

"People that truly commit themselves fully to God absolutely do get his help"

I just don't know if I believe that anymore. I mean it's easy to say, we love to say this sort of thing in church. When I started going to church again 6 years ago it drastically changed my life. I fought through heavy anxiety and issues in my life to eventually become (what I believe is) a far better person because of it. But some of the key sinful areas of my life that I wanted to change, didn't. And the parts that did change...well, to be honest, I didn't really need God for them.

Now I have no way of convincing you that I've actually been trying very hard these last 6 years to change my life. But I believe I have. And I've reached the point of not really knowing what else to give. And it all leaves me here, wondering, what part God really plays in life.

Because as much as we talk about a God who loves us, all I have ever seen is a very distant God.

 

[Greg J.]

... But some of the key sinful areas of my life that I wanted to change, didn't. And the parts that did change...well, to be honest, I didn't really need God for them.

Now I have no way of convincing you that I've actually been trying very hard these last 6 years to change my life. But I believe I have. And I've reached the point of not really knowing what else to give. And it all leaves me here, wondering, what part God really plays in life.

Because as much as we talk about a God who loves us, all I have ever seen is a very distant God.

You don't need to convince me, you need to understand and believe what God has already said. It seems to me that you may be in good spiritual health (as long as you persist in seeking God). It sounds to me like God has been preparing you these last 6 years to really start getting to know him. Your efforts to be obedient are the most powerful prayer requests there are to have God help you in every way. You perhaps are ready to recognize that you can't change yourself the way you think he wants. Knowing you should yield to God does not enable you to yield to God. In fact what you need to experience in the long-term is the fact that you can't do anything at all without God's grace. When we reach the end of our capabilities then we are positioned to be able to recognize our need for God's grace. That is when we can truly yield ourselves to him in our hearts.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. (John 15:5, 1984 NIV)

What it seems you need to do right now is to focus on the parts of Scripture where God promises good things to those that are following him. They only come through your belief they are for you, regardless of what you are experiencing. This is a lifelong venture. While you may be at a turning point, all you need to do is continue to do your best to please the Lord. You will see in Scripture how pleased he already is with you.

For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. ... (2 Corinthians 1:20a, 1984 NIV)

 

[ToBeLoved]

What if you taught your child not to run into the street, and they knew it was bad, but they couldn't stop themselves from doing it?

What I want...is for God to help his children when they want to turn to Him.

God does help you. You are given the Holy Spirit, God Himself.

Question: "What is the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives today?"

Answer: Of all the gifts given to mankind by God, there is none greater than the presence of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit has many functions, roles, and activities. First, He does a work in the hearts of all people everywhere. Jesus told the disciples that He would send the Spirit into the world to “convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment” (John 16:7-11). Everyone has a “God consciousness,” whether or not they admit it. The Spirit applies the truths of God to minds of men to convince them by fair and sufficient arguments that they are sinners. Responding to that conviction brings men to salvation.

Once we are saved and belong to God, the Spirit takes up residence in our hearts forever, sealing us with the confirming, certifying, and assuring pledge of our eternal state as His children. Jesus said He would send the Spirit to us to be our Helper, Comforter, and Guide. “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever” (John 14:16). The Greek word translated here “Counselor” means “one who is called alongside” and has the idea of someone who encourages and exhorts. The Holy Spirit takes up permanent residence in the hearts of believers (Romans 8:9; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, 12:13). Jesus gave the Spirit as a “compensation” for His absence, to perform the functions toward us which He would have done if He had remained personally with us.

Among those functions is that of revealer of truth. The Spirit’s presence within us enables us to understand and interpret God’s Word. Jesus told His disciples that “when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13). He reveals to our minds the whole counsel of God as it relates to worship, doctrine, and Christian living. He is the ultimate guide, going before, leading the way, removing obstructions, opening the understanding, and making all things plain and clear. He leads in the way we should go in all spiritual things. Without such a guide, we would be apt to fall into error. A crucial part of the truth He reveals is that Jesus is who He said He is (John 15:26; 1 Corinthians 12:3). The Spirit convinces us of Christ’s deity and incarnation, His being the Messiah, His suffering and death, His resurrection and ascension, His exaltation at the right hand of God, and His role as the judge of all. He gives glory to Christ in all things (John 16:14).

Another one of the Holy Spirit’s roles is that of gift-giver. First Corinthians 12 describes the spiritual gifts given to believers in order that we may function as the body of Christ on earth. All these gifts, both great and small, are given by the Spirit so that we may be His ambassadors to the world, showing forth His grace and glorifying Him.

The Spirit also functions as fruit-producer in our lives. When He indwells us, He begins the work of harvesting His fruit in our lives—love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23). These are not works of our flesh, which is incapable of producing such fruit, but they are products of the Spirit’s presence in our lives.

The knowledge that the Holy Spirit of God has taken up residence in our lives, that He performs all these miraculous functions, that He dwells with us forever, and that He will never leave or forsake us is cause for great joy and comfort. Thank God for this precious gift—the Holy Spirit and His work in our lives!

http://www.gotquestions.org/Spirit-today.html

 

[ToBeLoved]

"People that truly commit themselves fully to God absolutely do get his help"

I just don't know if I believe that anymore. I mean it's easy to say, we love to say this sort of thing in church. When I started going to church again 6 years ago it drastically changed my life. I fought through heavy anxiety and issues in my life to eventually become (what I believe is) a far better person because of it. But some of the key sinful areas of my life that I wanted to change, didn't. And the parts that did change...well, to be honest, I didn't really need God for them.

Now I have no way of convincing you that I've actually been trying very hard these last 6 years to change my life. But I believe I have. And I've reached the point of not really knowing what else to give. And it all leaves me here, wondering, what part God really plays in life.

Because as much as we talk about a God who loves us, all I have ever seen is a very distant God.

Have you been walking with God OR walking for God? Big difference. The second burns you out, the first is a relationship

 

[Optimax]

Read Gal 5.

Watch for the scriptures that speak about walking in the Spirit and the war that goes on inside us.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In the last year I've watched as my faith has taken a large decline. It initially began over the idea of not being able to stop living a lust filled life (but that isn't what this question is about), and after talking to my girlfriend I realized there seems to be this huge hole in my knowledge about living as a sinner.

You see my girlfriend is a social worker, and constantly has to deal with patients who do not have the ability to properly reason. The idea that they need God is almost impossible for some of them to grasp. And the idea that they could stop the sinful ways they live? It's basically impossible. Like asking a potato to run.

Or I have a friend who was sexually abused growing up. He is a smart person, but his whole view on sexuality has completely been distorted. And we basically ask him to just "stop sinning"?

I don't understand it. I can understand a life living in pain, or without something. At least that has taught me something in my journey. But living a life of sin, where hope to remove it is essentially non existent? I don't understand how God can put us in that place. We didn't ask for these things to be part of our lives, they're just there. And we're told we need to remove them from our lives.

.... ....I think this is why He gave us the "seventy-times seven" principle.

 

[pilgrimage]

When God in the new testament economy gave the Holy Spirit it's not so that we can produce fruit of righteousness from the written Old testament whereby we save ourselves in perfection. Rather the NT economy (ie gvmt) is carried out by the Holy Spirit in yielding to the word of God as He brings it into remembrance. Therefore the only requirement is a yielding of the will. As the light is shone then yielded to it produces more light thereby growth that produces more light in a perpetual growth

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Kinda makes the Free-will, Works-Righteousness, POV we are treated to so often around here seem really shallow and impossible, don't you think?

I mean, the appeal to "Everyone, listen up. Just do right and be sure you don't slip up at any time before death, unless you have time to confess your sins, of course...and you'll be saved....otherwise, you have only yourself to blame for your eternal demise" sound horribly naïve.

But you make a humanist argument that people are just victims of circumstance and you can't possibly punish those that just follow in the vile footsteps of their parents and
surroundings. Scripture refutes such a concept and says all are without excuse.

Rom 1 God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.​

Some people have so rejected God such that they desire only to follow the evil of Satan. They reverse truth. They think evil is good and good is evil. Despite what the God is love people promote, there are some that are lost to sin and Jesus said to leave those people.

Mark 6:11 And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”​

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I realized there seems to be this huge hole in my knowledge about living as a sinner.

Righteousness is not attained by a progression of becoming a better Christian such that we no longer sin. The saved are saved because their heart wants to follow Christ. As such, one tries not to sin. The lost are because they reject God and they desire to follow Satan and his lies. This means from their heart, they want to sin and see no problem doing it.

I suggest if your environment is being a stumbling block to your faith, that you try and change it. There is much support in the fellowship of fellow Christians.

 

[Job8]

It's the idea that we are sinners and we can't change. That we are expected to live with certain parts of our lives being sinful.

You need to spend some time in the New Testament to understand what provisions God has made for His children to turn their backs on sinning and live holy, sober, and righteous lives. You have a major misunderstanding of this matter.

1. Repentance -- that is a command, which means a 180 degree change in attitudes and lifestyle.

2. The New Birth -- that is an imperative and a necessity. You are no longer a sinner but a child of God.

3. The gift of the Holy Spirit -- that is the power to stop sinning. The indwelling Holy Spirit is there for many reasons.

4. The living Word of God -- that is to teach sinners how to become saints, even while they are regarded as righteous with the imputed righteousness of Christ.

5. The mortification of the flesh -- putting to death the old sinful nature by walking in the Spirit. This is called taking up your cross and following Christ.

6. The living sacrifice -- every believer to sacrifice self for Christ.

 

[Erose]

In the last year I've watched as my faith has taken a large decline. It initially began over the idea of not being able to stop living a lust filled life (but that isn't what this question is about), and after talking to my girlfriend I realized there seems to be this huge hole in my knowledge about living as a sinner.

I think that you are hitting on something that quite frankly those that came before us, had a much better understanding on that we "moderns" who have forgotten ascetic theology. But to answer your question, yes you can overcome your faults, and yes God will help you with that. In fact we are called to fight that battle, and with God's grace, and perhaps a long journey, they can be overcame.

You see my girlfriend is a social worker, and constantly has to deal with patients who do not have the ability to properly reason. The idea that they need God is almost impossible for some of them to grasp. And the idea that they could stop the sinful ways they live? It's basically impossible. Like asking a potato to run.

For one to be culpable of a sin there are three requirements that need to be met: It must be a grave matter, done with knowledge that what is happening is a grave matter, and it must be done freely. You remove any of these three, then even though there is a sin that occurs, the sinner is not culpable. In the people you are describing these people are either lacking the knowledge or the free will.

Or I have a friend who was sexually abused growing up. He is a smart person, but his whole view on sexuality has completely been distorted. And we basically ask him to just "stop sinning"?

In his case the issue is an ill-formed conscience. Which has to be in a sense retrained to undistort his understanding of sexuality. The journey he would be on if he wanted to "stop sinning" is probably going to be a long one, but he can overcome his ill-formed conscience and predominate fault, but again a lot of pray, mortification and penance is required.

I don't understand it. I can understand a life living in pain, or without something. At least that has taught me something in my journey. But living a life of sin, where hope to remove it is essentially non existent? I don't understand how God can put us in that place. We didn't ask for these things to be part of our lives, they're just there. And we're told we need to remove them from our lives.

Well God didn't put us in this place of sin. And He does give us the grace to come out of it. The problem I find is that there are a ton of people out there telling us not to sin, but not enough folks telling us how to do that. In the Catholic Church when there was a large number of priests, you had many that specialized in spiritual direction, where pretty much every Catholic who wanted a spiritual director could easily find one. Today where priests are not as plentiful, it is much harder to find a good spiritual director.

Anyway my point being is that yes it is possible to overcome your sins, but it isn't easy and is best done on the guidance of a spiritual director. It is possible to do so without one, but on your part will require a lot of self-education first. If you are interested I will give you some books that you can study to get more information.

 

[Erose]

What if you taught your child not to run into the street, and they knew it was bad, but they couldn't stop themselves from doing it?

What I want...is for God to help his children when they want to turn to Him.

Done already. The problem is that people will fake themselves out in a sense, asking God for help but not really wanting it, because they don't want to really give up the sin that they enjoy, but are feeling guilty about the sin. The problem is that when it comes to the faults we cannot overcome, it is usually because of one thing: We love the sin more than we love the Father. We must cultivate in ourselves a greater distrust of ourselves and a greater love of our Father. To do this you have to really start exercising your spirit. The great spiritual Saints in my Faith Tradition say three things: prayer, mortification and penance. Without us using these three things, it is impossible for us to overcome our predominate faults, and as such we just keep spinning our wheels, and sadly many after a period of time spinning their wheels just give up our of hopelessness.