God changes His mind.

[Carl Emerson]

I am keen to hear comment on this topic and how it might shape our perception of Him.

Some scripture seems to suggest God never does this. Others record Him relenting His intent.

Can we bring clarity to this topic please.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am keen to hear comment on this topic and how it might shape our perception of Him.

Some scripture seems to suggest God never does this. Others record Him relenting His intent.

Can we bring clarity to this topic please.

There certainly are events where it seems that God changes His mind. The state of the world before the Flood, caused God to repent that He had made man in the first place, and so He decided to wipe everyone and everything out and start all over again, but Noah found grace in His sight so He decided to save him and his family.

God was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah with everyone in it. Abraham negotiated with God and beat Him down to saving the cities if there were 10 righteous men in it. I don't know why he didn't continue to get God to agree with saving the cities with just one righteous man in it, but I guess God has His bottom line and Abraham realised it and didn't press God any further. Notice that Abraham did not ask God to rescue Lot out of Sodom before destroying it. I think that he was resigned to Lot perishing in the city. Lot's mistake was in leaving his herds in the pastures outside of the city and deciding to go urban. However, God hooked Lot and his family out, but changed His mind about Lot's wife when she disobeyed the instruction not to look back at the city.

God wanted to destroy Israel because of their disobedience and start a new nation through Moses, which He had every right to do, but Moses reminded Him about His covenant with the people, and what would the nations think of Him if He brought Israel out with great signs and wonders, and then destroyed them in the wilderness. God saw reason and changed His mind.

God promised that Israel would live in Canaan for ever, but changed His mind when they idolatry got to the stage where He gave up on them and they went into captivity.

Jesus changed His mind about the Canaanite woman who came to Him for help to heal her demonised daughter. He told her that He had not come to give the children's food to "dogs". In other words, He said His ministry was for the lost sheep of Israel, and Gentiles were not included. He told the 70 to stick to Jewish towns and villages, and not go to the Gentiles when He sent them out. But she reasoned with Him to the point that her persistence overcame His reluctance and He changed his mind and healed the daughter, and then celebrated her faith in Him.

When the centurion came to Jesus for healing for his servant, Jesus said that He would go and heal the guy. But the centurion told Him that he was not worthy for Jesus to come to him, but just say the word. Jesus changed His mind about going and pronounced healing for the servant, who was healed at the very time that Jesus said he was healed.

I can't remember any other events right now where God changed His mind.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I am keen to hear comment on this topic and how it might shape our perception of Him.

Some scripture seems to suggest God never does this. Others record Him relenting His intent.

Can we bring clarity to this topic please.

God destroys the world with a flood, says he'll never do that again and creates a rainbow as token of that promise.

Before destroying the world with a flood "God repented of creating" due to the evil of humans.

This would establish God is able to repent and has done so in the past.

 

[Dave L]

God appears to change his mind with every answer to prayer. But he ordained the prayers and their answers as part of his unchangeable plan.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

God appears to change his mind with every answer to prayer. But he ordained the prayers and their answers as part of his unchangeable plan.

Yes. This is this the mystery of God's ways that have not been revealed to us in the Bible. We know that God has a plan which He put together through His foreknowledge. How He can know the future and yet allow mankind to have free choice, is another mystery that we are not told in the Bible. So, how our prayers change things and yet God's plan and purpose remains solid, is a great mystery, but we are encouraged to accept it and make our requests to God anyway.

 

[Dave L]

Yes. This is this the mystery of God's ways that have not been revealed to us in the Bible. We know that God has a plan which He put together through His foreknowledge. How He can know the future and yet allow mankind to have free choice, is another mystery that we are not told in the Bible. So, how our prayers change things and yet God's plan and purpose remains solid, is a great mystery, but we are encouraged to accept it and make our requests to God anyway.

God controls our free choices through the reasons he created for us to base our choices on.

 

[TheSeabass]

No, God is immutable and all knowing therefore does not learn anything new for He already knows all things, therefore He has no reason to change His mind. How far could you trust a person who keeps changing their mind?

There are verses that speak to God "repenting" (Jonah 3:10) but those are figures of speech giving human attributes to God.

God does not change His mind, but does change His course of action depending on how man responds:

God has a predetermined course of action in how He deals with nations:
Jeremiah 18:7-10:
7- At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 - If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 - And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 - If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

In the case of Nineveh in the book of Jonah, Nineveh was a wicked city and God's predetermined course of action is to bring judgment, destruction against it. Nineveh responded by repenting, God changed His course of action to follow a predetermined course of action found in Jeremiah 18:8.

Another passage that shows God has predetermined courses of action in how He conditionally deals with man based on man's response is Ezekiel 33:13ff "When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live."

From the above information the Bible gives me tells me that everything man does has not been predetermined by God, that God's foreknowledge does not demand predetermination. That God will conditionally change His course of action depending on how man response to God's commands/warnings/admonitions. If all has been predetermined, then there would be no sense in God ever needing to "repent" by changing His course of action.

 

[Grip Docility]

I am keen to hear comment on this topic and how it might shape our perception of Him.

Some scripture seems to suggest God never does this. Others record Him relenting His intent.

Can we bring clarity to this topic please.

Carl,

It is my personal opinion that God is not “Locked In” to any mold.

The root of the major issue in much modern Theology is that it has unknowingly taken the esoteric writings of Plato (The Republic for example) and converted the Platonic ponderings into exoteric, authoritative foundations.

To put this delicately... the God of Plato is not the God of scripture.

Because Jesus Christ so boldly revealed God as “God With us” (Immanuel)... to us... and so boldly did so by going as far as telling Philip it was essentially preposterous to ask Him to “Show them the Father”. Jesus goes forward to say... to have “seen” Him is to have “Seen”, been directly revealed... The Father. In this, we are immediately forced to concede that The Son is the full revelation of The Father. We cannot be fools and attempt to separate the Father’s “Character” from The Son’s Character. In this, we see that the Father and Son, though genuinely Father and Son and specifically “Not One Another”...are in every way... Deuteronomy 6:4.

Jesus goes so far to say this... (John 5:39). Of all Divine statements made by Jesus Christ, I’m shocked this one didn’t get Him stoned. For Jesus to say... “I AM”... was very clear... but Jesus literally identified Himself as the CENTRAL Character of Scripture. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to capture how enormously Literal that statement is.

We are left to abandon the idea of a God that is CONTROLLING things to bring about an outcome, without risk... and embrace Jesus, Who relationally reacted and Divinely Responded to events that unfolded second by second.

What Crowns Jesus... God of god’s? Let’s evaluate the Omni’s and see the one measure that is missed, every time...

Omnipotent (This is Humanities favorite as it roots in POWER... which is literally the ability to make people do things they may not want to do)

Omnipresent (This is our assurance that God sees all, and is in all, through all, before all, outside of all, inside of all and without refrain, in all of Creation, in respects to God being the Uncreated intentional, intelligent, sentient cause of all that exists)

Omniscience (This is the Knows all things Omni. Humanity has imposed upon God in Much theology, that God cannot “learn and grow”, because Plato speculated that perfection is a state that cannot increase or decrease in any measure. I, personally, see God growing through experience, with creation, from PERFECT to more PERFECT, with each passing moment of existence. I see God as Limitless and without a single Barrier. I see God as the very articulation of what is possible to know, and what is impossible being possible. I never say... GOD Cannot... but that there are things God will not... or Desires not)

Omnibenevolence (This is to me what scripture means when it says God never changes. We know God has the Knowledge Of Evil, yet we can see, in Jesus Christ that God is abhorrent of Evil and WILL NEVER “Do Evil”, “Participate in Evil”, Create Evil or cause someone to participate in Evil... out of Not Desiring to do Evil. Could God do Evil? If He wanted to! But, what single thing Assures us God will NEVER DO Evil? (1 John 4:8 ; 1 Corinthians 13)... LOVE... God is willingly constrained by LOVE. Philippians 2 is one of the most important verses to really grasping how deep the Love of God is!

OmniHumility - Humility is the forgotten Crown of God’s Glory! Why is God the rightful King? Because He is the Very Definition Of Genuine Altruism! God is the only infinitely Selfless Leader!

So I say, God isn’t re-enacting a play that He has dreamt up and is now participating in. So I refuse to say... God is playing a game of rigged odds, that is without risk.

I say... He actively pursues whatever He puts HIS Infinite mind to and conquers all obstacles that sincerely arise... with His perfect Love and Righteous, Merciful, Infinitely True Judgment.

That’s my 2 cents.

 

[Dave L]

Carl,

It is my personal opinion that God is not “Locked In” to any mold.

The root of the major issue in much modern Theology is that it has unknowingly taken the esoteric writings of Plato (The Republic for example) and converted the Platonic ponderings into exoteric, authoritative foundations.

To put this delicately... the God of Plato is not the God of scripture.

Because Jesus Christ so boldly revealed God as “God With us” (Immanuel)... to us... and so boldly did so by going as far as telling Philip it was essentially preposterous to ask Him to “Show them the Father”. Jesus goes forward to say... to have “seen” Him is to have “Seen”, been directly revealed... The Father. In this, we are immediately forced to concede that The Son is the full revelation of The Father. We cannot be fools and attempt to separate the Father’s “Character” from The Son’s Character. In this, we see that the Father and Son, though genuinely Father and Son and specifically “Not One Another”...are in every way... Deuteronomy 6:4.

Jesus goes so far to say this... (John 5:39). Of all Divine statements made by Jesus Christ, I’m shocked this one didn’t get Him stoned. For Jesus to say... “I AM”... was very clear... but Jesus literally identified Himself as the CENTRAL Character of Scripture. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to capture how enormously Literal that statement is.

We are left to abandon the idea of a God that is CONTROLLING things to bring about an outcome, without risk... and embrace Jesus, Who relationally reacted and Divinely Responded to events that unfolded second by second.

What Crowns Jesus... God of god’s? Let’s evaluate the Omni’s and see the one measure that is missed, every time...

Omnipotent (This is Humanities favorite as it roots in POWER... which is literally the ability to make people do things they may not want to do)

Omnipresent (This is our assurance that God sees all, and is in all, through all, before all, outside of all, inside of all and without refrain, in all of Creation, in respects to God being the Uncreated intentional, intelligent, sentient cause of all that exists)

Omniscience (This is the Knows all things Omni. Humanity has imposed upon God in Much theology, that God cannot “learn and grow”, because Plato speculated that perfection is a state that cannot increase or decrease in any measure. I, personally, see God growing through experience, with creation, from PERFECT to more PERFECT, with each passing moment of existence. I see God as Limitless and without a single Barrier. I see God as the very articulation of what is possible to know, and what is impossible being possible. I never say... GOD Cannot... but that there are things God will not... or Desires not)

Omnibenevolence (This is to me what scripture means when it says God never changes. We know God has the Knowledge Of Evil, yet we can see, in Jesus Christ that God is abhorrent of Evil and WILL NEVER “Do Evil”, “Participate in Evil”, Create Evil or cause someone to participate in Evil... out of Not Desiring to do Evil. Could God do Evil? If He wanted to! But, what single thing Assures is God will NEVER DO Evil? (1 John 4:8 ; 1 Corinthians 13)... LOVE... God is willingly constrained by LOVE. Philippians 2 is one of the most important verses to really grasping how deep the Love of God is!

OmniHumility - Humility is the forgotten Crown of God’s Glory! Why is God the rightful King? Because He is the Very Definition Of Genuine Altruism! God is the only infinitely Selfless Leader!

So I say, God isn’t re-enacting a play that He has dreamt up and is now participating in. So I refuse to say... God is playing a game of rigged odds, that is without risk.

I say... He actively pursuers whatever He puts HIS Infinite mind to and conquers all obstacles that sincerely arise with His perfect Love and Righteous, Merciful, Infinitely True Judgment.

That’s my 2 cents.

Change can be only to imperfection, and it God suggests he isn't omniscient.

 

[Grip Docility]

Change can be only to imperfection, and it God suggests he isn't omniscient.

In no Way is that true.

That is word for word, what you have written... Plato’s republic.

God Knows all, as He desires to Know All And However He desires to know all.

Human constructs Of Platonic kind have defamed the God that is Relational. That is not Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ reveals that God can even Die, if He desires.

I sincerely dislike any idea that says... “God Can’t”.

God is Good because He eternally chooses to be Good... not because He is boxed within man’s infinite theological assumptions.

 

[Dave L]

In no Way is that true.

That is word for word, what you have written... Plato’s republic.

God Knows all, as He desires to Know All And However He desires to know all.

Human constructs Of Platonic kind have defamed the God that is Relational. That is not Jesus Christ.

Perfection cannot change to imperfection.

 

[Grip Docility]

Perfection cannot change to imperfection.

Perfection can certainly become more Perfect.

I would never blaspheme Him by saying He could become imperfect.

By saying God cannot learn and Grow... humanity suggests that God is Stagnant. I severely disagree.

Like Fine wine that is spectacular... God improves with each passing of eternity.

The Best gets better and better and never ceases to forever be the perpetual outpouring of Love.

 

[Dave L]

Perfection can certainly become more Perfect.

I would never blaspheme Him by saying He could become imperfect.

By saying God cannot learn and Grow... humanity suggests that God is Stagnant. I severely disagree.

Like Fine wine that is spectacular... God improves with each passing of eternity.

The Best gets better and better and never ceases to forever be the perpetual outpouring of Love.

You are suggesting God created a power outside of himself that he listens to and obeys.

 

[Grip Docility]

You are suggesting God created a power outside of himself that he listens to and obeys.

What!?! How in the world did you get that!

Infact... I challenge you to find one quote on this entire site... not just here, on Carl’s Thread, where I say that!

I am suggesting that Jesus, Uncreated, Eternal, Infinite... The Son Of God, reveals God.

Do you disagree?

 

[TheSeabass]

By saying God cannot learn and Grow... humanity suggests that God is Stagnant. I severely disagree.

Is God omniscienct or not?

 

[Grip Docility]

Is God omniscienct or not?

God is even more Omniscient than classical Platonic Central Omniscience Perpots.

God is even more Omniscient than Reformed Theology purports.

The Mother Church is about the closest to brick and mortar today to the reality, but Jesus said it best...

(John 5:39)

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

A driver changes direction and reacts to events and objects, but the destination remains unchanged. In this case, all turns and hazards are known beforehand, but the car still doesn't turn until it gets to them.

 

[Grip Docility]

Is God omniscienct or not?

A driver changes direction and reacts to events and objects, but the destination remains unchanged. In this case, all turns and hazards are known beforehand, but the car still doesn't turn until it gets to them.

Loaded question...

I believe Jesus Christ (Eternal Son) was/is the the Fullness of the Godhead Bodily and Was the 100% manifestation of God, as The Son Of God and Son of Man.... Fully God as Man.

Do you agree?

 

[TheSeabass]

God is even more Omniscient than classical Platonic Central Omniscience Perpots.

God is even more Omniscient than Reformed Theology purports.

The Mother Church is about the closest to brick and mortar today to the reality, but Jesus said it best...

(John 5:39)

Then there is nothing God can learn since He is omniscient.

 

[Grip Docility]

Then there is nothing God can learn since He is omniscient.

So you’re saying “God Can’t” based on human wisdom?

I say God can.

I say, Eternal-Triune, God can create more to creation unknown that doesn’t exist yet and has never existed.

Do you disagree?