God became man so that man could become God

Yoder777

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I haven't completed reading this entire thread, but I thought I'd interject some thoughts here.

I noticed one person mistakenly read panENtheism as pantheism. They aren't the same thing. Pantheism says all is god (pan "all" + theos "god"), panENtheism says God is present in all things (pan "all" + en "in" theos "god"); the former is blasphemous, the latter is (arguably) biblical -->

"one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." (Ephesians 4:6)

"For 'In him we live and move and have our being,' as even some of your poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring.'" (Acts 17:28)

That is we exist "in" God insofar as God is omnipresent, everywhere, and maintaining the entire created order. God is not like a ba'al, nor a Zeus or an Odin; of Him, says Solomon, not even the highest heavens can contain Him (2 Chronicles 6:18).

The emphasis is on proclaiming the vastness, the bigness, and the magnitude of God, as the Psalmist says, "Where can I go to hide from Your presence?" and "Even if I make my bed in Death, You are there."

Additionally...

To properly understand Theosis and what Christianity has historically meant with phrases such as "He became flesh so that we might become god," it is crucial to understand the essential distinction between God's Ousia and God's Energia, God's Essence and God's Activity. Theosis never says that we become, ontologically or substantially god. Only the Holy Trinity is God. Only the Father, Son and Holy Spirit share, consubstantially, in the one, undivided, indivisible Divine Nature. What Theosis says is that, we, in our being united to God through Christ, are becoming sharers, partakers, inhabitants in the Divine Life. The perfect, ineffable, and glorious friendship and love which the Three Persons of the Trinity have in and with one another is shared with us creatures, we are united to God by Grace, not Essence. We are not ontologically united to God--never, that is blasphemous--but we are being, by Grace, united to Him. As we have been baptized, clothed with Jesus, put on Christ, made members of Him and His Body; as sharers in the Eucharistic Table, being filled with the Holy Spirit, made joint-heirs with Christ, having been crucified with Jesus and raised up with Him; in being transformed and conformed to the Image of Christ, being made like Him--in all this we are being partakers in the indescribable life of God. By Grace.

Nothing created can know the ineffable Nature and Being of God, but by God's grace we can know Him in His acts, His works, His activity; and He is working that gracious work in us, to make us more like Him, "Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2).

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you for posting this. The essence of God is like the sun while the energies of God are like its rays. We can't touch God's essence without getting burned, yet we can bask in his energies.
 
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Yoder777

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George MacDonald's understanding of salvation was close to theosis:


MacDonald rejected the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement as developed by John Calvin, which argues that Christ has taken the place of sinners and is punished by God in their place, believing that in turn it raised serious questions about the character and nature of God. Instead, he taught that Christ had come to save people from their sins, and not from a Divine penalty for their sins. The problem was not the need to appease a wrathful God but the disease of cosmic evil itself. George MacDonald frequently described the Atonement in terms similar to the Christus Victor theory. MacDonald posed the rhetorical question, "Did he not foil and slay evil by letting all the waves and billows of its horrid sea break upon him, go over him, and die without rebound—spend their rage, fall defeated, and cease? Verily, he made atonement!"

MacDonald was convinced that God does not punish except to amend, and that the sole end of His greatest anger is the amelioration of the guilty. As the doctor uses fire and steel in certain deep-seated diseases, so God may use hell-fire if necessary to heal the hardened sinner. MacDonald declared, "I believe that no hell will be lacking which would help the just mercy of God to redeem his children." MacDonald posed the rhetorical question, "When we say that God is Love, do we teach men that their fear of Him is groundless?" He replied, "No. As much as they fear will come upon them, possibly far more. … The wrath will consume what they call themselves; so that the selves God made shall appear."

However, true repentance, in the sense of freely chosen moral growth, is essential to this process, and, in MacDonald's optimistic view, inevitable for all beings. He recognized the theoretical possibility that, bathed in the eschatological divine light, some might perceive right and wrong for what they are but still refuse to be transfigured by operation of God's fires of love, but he did not think this likely.

In this theology of divine punishment, MacDonald stands in agreement with the Greek Church Fathers St. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and St.Gregory of Nyssa, although it is unknown whether MacDonald had a working familiarity with Patristics or Eastern Orthodox Christianity. At least an indirect influence is likely, because F. D. Maurice who influenced MacDonald knew the Greek Fathers, especially Clement, very well.
George MacDonald - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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BrendanMark

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On the one hand, Christ’s assumption of a full humanity is the prerequisite for his accomplishment of our salvation as man. On the other, Christ as man provides a pattern of the godly way of life (πολιτεία), teaching us how we are to live. The term, πολιτεία, captures for Cyril the corporate manner of life of the Christian people, a way of life and conduct made possible only by the inauguration of a new covenant and the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Keating, Daniel A. – The Appropriation of Divine Life in Cyril of Alexandria [Oxford Theological Monographs, 2004 p.v124]


. . . in another important and extended sense, the outworking of this divine life, and so the outworking of our sanctification and divinization, is a process of growth towards full conformity to Christ, dependent on the indwelling of divine life, but requiring as well our full response and co-operation.
Keating, Daniel A. – The Appropriation of Divine Life in Cyril of Alexandria [Oxford Theological Monographs, 2004 p.v129]


Christ, for his part, unites us to himself through the gift of the Spirit, by which he gives us life and nourishes us. We, for our part, cling to him through faith and love. Christ takes hold of us is an manner distinct from how we cling to him, yet both sides of this mutual inhering are necessary.
Keating, Daniel A. – The Appropriation of Divine Life in Cyril of Alexandria [Oxford Theological Monographs, 2004 p.v130]
 
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Yoder777

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I think an overemphasis on Jesus' death as appeasing God's wrath makes Christianity out to be a Satanic death cult. I'd rather see Jesus' death and resurrection as enabling our spiritual rebirth in which we grow in his likeness.
This understanding of salvation is rooted in Scripture and the early church.
 
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zeke37

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(I was preparing this for a JW friend of mine...)
seems fitting to be posted here


here are a few of many scriptures that teach Who Jesus really is...YHVH!

Zec11:12And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.


YHVH was worth 30 silver pieces to them....
We can connect this to Christ on the 30 pieces of silver
and the potter's field for which the 30 pieces were used to purchase.


Zec12:9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.


YHVH is speaking here. He says that they shall look upon "Me" Who they pierced...
YHVH is the One that they shall look upon...
YHVH is the One Whom they pierced.
This is a reference to Christ's piercing ordeal on the cross.

Isa7:14's Immanuel...literally translates to; God with us.

Isa7:14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.



in Isa9:6, the coming Messiah is called many names, and a few of those are reserved for YHVH only.

Isa9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.






The title of Son of man is used of Jesus...
now i surely think imagery has a lot to do with this vision...
remember that all the way through the Bible, only God is to be worshiped
there is no other to be worshiped...never....Commandment number one

but here in Dan7, God is giving the OK to serve (translated worship in some translations) the Son of man...
clearly a reference to Jesus' 2nd Coming (connect to Mar14:62)

Dan7:13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.




Mat2:11, the Magi worshiped Christ as a youth.

Mat14:32-33, the disciples worship Christ.

Mat28:16-17, Jesus accepts worship before His ascension.

John8:59, Jesus says that He was alive before Abraham (before He was human)
and calls Himself "I AM" a direct title of YHVH...see Ex13.

John10:30-33, Jesus claims that He and God (YHVH) are One,
and the religious authority tries to kill Him for "blaspheme" (claiming to be God).
Jesus does not argue their findings (that He claimed to be God, because He did just that)

John20:27-29, Jesus accepts Thomas' words when he said....my Lord and my God





Jesus is the image of God,
and all things were created by Him, the whole heavens and earth...
according to Gen1:1, God does this

Col1:15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


here, Paul calls Jesus God....actually THE GREAT GOD

Tit2:13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Heb1, Paul calls Jesus the express image of God

Rev5:13-14, Jesus is worshiped by every creature
 
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Yoder777

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As Christians, we can either passively believe in Jesus' death and resurrection or we can strive to live within that narrative. The early church understood Jesus' death as our moral example and his resurrection as the power which enables us to follow him. Is being born again a one time event or a lifelong process?
 
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Fotina

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As Christians, we can either passively believe in Jesus' death and resurrection or we can strive to live within that narrative. The early church understood Jesus' death as our moral example and his resurrection as the power which enables us to follow him. Is being born again a one time event or a lifelong process?

Wrong! The early church did not understand Jesus' death to be our moral example but our hope for eternal life. Christ by His death destroyed Death as the grave could not hold God.

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs bestowing life.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Wrong! The early church did not understand Jesus' death to be our moral example but our hope for eternal life. Christ by His death destroyed Death as the grave could not hold God.

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs bestowing life.

i believe it was both,

the way Jesus died for us is the way we are to lay our lives down for one another

and in His resurrection is our hope for eternal life .

both are written in scripture . one by Paul the other by John .
 
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Fotina

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The topic of this thread might be over the heads of many Western Christians. Please just try to think of sanctification as, not just overcoming sin, but growing in oneness with God.

To properly understand Theosis and what Christianity has historically meant with phrases such as "He became flesh so that we might become god," it is crucial to understand the essential distinction between God's Ousia and God's Energia, God's Essence and God's Activity. Theosis never says that we become, ontologically or substantially god. Only the Holy Trinity is God. Only the Father, Son and Holy Spirit share, consubstantially, in the one, undivided, indivisible Divine Nature. What Theosis says is that, we, in our being united to God through Christ, are becoming sharers, partakers, inhabitants in the Divine Life. The perfect, ineffable, and glorious friendship and love which the Three Persons of the Trinity have in and with one another is shared with us creatures, we are united to God by Grace, not Essence. We are not ontologically united to God--never, that is blasphemous--but we are being, by Grace, united to Him. As we have been baptized, clothed with Jesus, put on Christ, made members of Him and His Body; as sharers in the Eucharistic Table, being filled with the Holy Spirit, made joint-heirs with Christ, having been crucified with Jesus and raised up with Him; in being transformed and conformed to the Image of Christ, being made like Him--in all this we are being partakers in the indescribable life of God. By Grace.

Nothing created can know the ineffable Nature and Being of God, but by God's grace we can know Him in His acts, His works, His activity; and He is working that gracious work in us, to make us more like Him, "Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2).

-CryptoLutheran

It's ironic to have y'all trying to explain theosis which is not taught in your denoms. I'd recommend to go to the source, to the Orthodox Church whose saints are living theosis.
 
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Fotina

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i believe it was both,

the way Jesus died for us is the way we are to lay our lives down for one another

and in His resurrection is our hope for eternal life .

both are written in scripture . one by Paul the other by John .

The "moral example" part is what I disagree with. There must be a real joining to Christ, the sinless man and divine Son of God, who alone has conquered death, risen from the dead, and will come again in glory.
 
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one new man

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The mystery of God is now revealed into us through Christ Jesus, the Son of God, as the embodiment of the Triune God. God's eternal economy is to make man the same as He, in life, in nature but not in the Godhead...
God became man so that man may become God in life, in nature, in divine essence, (but not) 3x in the Godhead.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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The "moral example" part is what I disagree with. There must be a real joining to Christ, the sinless man and divine Son of God, who alone has conquered death, risen from the dead, and will come again in glory.

oh, then i agree with you, all things in the new life must be a spiritual joining, not an intellectual assent . or they will fail .
 
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Fotina

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The mystery of God is now revealed into us through Christ Jesus, the Son of God, as the embodiment of the Triune God. God's eternal economy is to make man the same as He, in life, in nature but not in the Godhead...
God became man so that man may become God in life, in nature, in divine essence, (but not) 3x in the Godhead.

No, not so man may become the same as Christ who is God by nature, "in life, in nature, in divine essesnce", but to become as Christ by grace by becoming members of His Body, the Church.

We sing at baptisms:

As many as have been baptized into Christ,
Have put on Christ! Alleluia!
 
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Christos Anesti

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I’ve been reading a good book on Theosis today called “Deification in Christ, The Nature of the Human Person” by Panayiotis Nellas. He looks at the issue of theosis from the perspective of a few different Church Fathers. I wanted to share a quote from it. This chapter is about the spiritual world view of St Nicholas Kavasilas a Byzantine theologian who focused a lot on the Liturgy and the Mysteries or Sacraments.:




"According to Kavasilas, the portion of creation which the Logos assumed at His incarnation was not only, as we have seen, delivered from corruption, but was also changed in a fundamental way. The purpose for which the world had been created from the beginning was realized within it. What the Logos had created became through the incarnation the body of the Logos ; it found outside creation the real “ground of it being.”


This assumed matter, the Lord’s body, henceforth functions for the rest of creation as “chrism.” What happens, explains Kavasilas, is akin to that which occurs in the case of a phial containing perfume. When the sides of the phial are in some way changed into the contents, then instead of separating the perfume from the surrounding atmosphere they it to pervade it. “similarly, when our nature is deified in the Saviors body, there is nothing which separates the human race from God.” “Flesh was deified and human nature received God Himself as its hypostasis, the barrier now becoming myrrh.” In this way that which used to separate man from God now unites him to Him. Chrismated created nature, ecclesial communion. And that which in consequence is grafted onto the Lord’s body is really transformed into the body of Christ, becomes Church or ecclesial communion. The Church is creation grafted onto Christ and vivified by the Spirit.
….
The movement is twofold. Christ is extended within time through the energy of the Spirit, and the world is assumed by Him. Christ is extended in the process of assuming the world. The Church is not a static situation. It is a dynamic, transforming movement. It is the perpetual marriage in space and time of the Creator with His creation, the enduring mingling of the created with the uncreated. Through this unconfused mingling in Christ of created with the uncreated nature, the created is subsumed into the flesh of Christ, is rehabilitated sacramentally, is transformed , becomes body of Christ and lives as such."

I take this as saying the whole world becomes Eucharist.
 
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