God appoints government leaders?

[2PhiloVoid]

Given the cases that we are discussing this strikes me as pretty awful so I'm curious if you see it differently.
If I have a 3 year old who throws things at his sister all the time when he gets angry and I wait until he is angry and hand him a throwing knife do i bear any responsibility for the injury to his sister.

...somewhere, your analogy is losing me, Athée, and I'm not sure what this has to do with God's hand in the governments of the world.

But it's even a bit worse than that because with my limited knowledge it is possible for to be wrong. Maybe the throw of rage misses or maybe he gets distracted by Netflix and doesn't throw it. But in the case of God installing Hitler and Stalin etc He had to know exactly what the result would be.

Assuming that I understand you right (and I'm not sure that I do), I might say that while it isn't impossible that Hitler and Stalin were politically enabled by God to rise up in power, I think the jury is still out as to whether Hitler and Stalin really and truly "fit" the Nebuchadnezzar role as instruments of God's punishment. It might rather be seen instead that they are expressions of the powers of Anti-Christ.

 

[Athée]

...somewhere, your analogy is losing me, Athée, and I'm not sure what this has to do with God's hand in the governments of the world.

Assuming that I understand you right (and I'm not sure that I do), I might say that while it isn't impossible that Hitler and Stalin were politically enabled by God to rise up in power, I think the jury is still out as to whether Hitler and Stalin really and truly "fit" the Nebuchadnezzar role as instruments of God's punishment. It might rather be seen instead that they are expressions of the powers of Anti-Christ.

My analogies are like my baking...not very good But as always I appreciate that you at least tried to digest it!

So the text in question seems to say that God appoints the authorities and in this instance we are considering some of the more horrible leaders in human history. Some people have suggested that they were installed as a judgement although you don't seem to be convinced thst is the case. My point above was that by whatever means God appoints these people (by directly choosing them, by allowing Satan to install them or any other method under his sovereign control), that he does so knowing what they will do with that appointment and so bears responsibility for their actions. This leads me to question the goodness of His character in the same way I would judge a parent for giving an angry toddler a throwing knife. On second thoughts I should have let that analogy die... oh well, back to the kitchen.

 

[Tom 1]

My question is ultimately about the character of God on the Christian worldview. This particular challenge to the idea of a morally good God comes out of the conversation my pastor friend and I were having. My position is that based on Romans 13 it seems God is the one who appoints these leaders, the Hitler's and the Stalin's. He does this knowing ahead of time what they would do. This makes me question God's goodness but I am in this particular forum exploring what believers think about it, where they agree with me and where they don't and why

Well....if you really want to have a rounded understanding of that, you’ll need to put in a lot of time and study. Like a lot. As I see it, there’s a bit of a catch 22 in operation; to understand the bible, you need to understand God. To understand God, you need to know the bible. That’s true whether you believe God is real or just a fictional character - it simply isn’t possible to really understand what a person does without having at least some idea of who they are. Questions relevant here would be:
What is the difference between a passage of scripture that is always applicable, no matter what, and one that is more general or ambiguous?
Who was Paul writing to and for what reason? What particular issues was he addressing?
What is God’s actual attitude towards leaders? Why does he, as Jesus, subject himself to their actions? See Luke 13:31-34 for a snippet of both (nb in my culture ‘fox’ when applied to a person means cunning or crafty, apparently in Jesus’ culture it meant a person who was utterly worthless)
What does it mean that Satan claims he has been given ‘all authority’ over the kingdoms of the world, in Luke 4:6?
Those are just some starter questions. You can of course just take Romans 13 in isolation and simply decide whatever you think it means, but I don’t think that will give you an accurate understanding of it. Anyway this is interesting so I’ll post an answer to your last question when I get time, but it’ll be quite long.

 

[Sketcher]

Do you have a reason to believe this is the case, that God didn't select these people based on the text or is this just something you hope is true?

God literally hand-picking every leader in the history of man is just one way of interpreting Scriptures such as Romans 13. I don't see enough Biblical evidence to say that this is the only proper and true interpretation. This view also becomes more difficult to adhere to in the face of free elections.

 

[Athée]

God literally hand-picking every leader in the history of man is just one way of interpreting Scriptures such as Romans 13. I don't see enough Biblical evidence to say that this is the only proper and true interpretation. This view also becomes more difficult to adhere to in the face of free elections.

That's fair but seems incomplete. When Paul writes (presumably inspired by the Holy Spirit?) that God appoints the governing authorities, what are the possible interpretations of that in your view?

 

[Almost there]

So in your view it's ok for God to inflict physical, emotional, mental and sexual torture to adults and children of all ages so long as He says he has a good reason for it?

I'm obviously wording your position in the harshest light possible but that seems to be the conclusion that your position leads to. Please tell me I misunderstood you...

You are absolutely correct. He is God. He created us. And it gets "worse". Read Romans 9:17 and its context.

As Bob Dylan said, "you gotta serve somebody". The question is, who you gonna serve? And when one comes to full understanding of the personality of the God of the bible, one gladly would serve him, not out of fear, but out of desire. That is, unless the person is hell bent on being in full control of his life, no matter what. And God lets us make that choice, even if part of it is to deny he is our creator. Be careful what you wish for.

And what if you DO make that choice?
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

 

[ViaCrucis]

Reading the text under discussion in Romans 13 I'm not seeing where you get this view that God doesn't appoint the leaders of government. Can you point me to the support for that reading?

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."

What God has willed is "governing authorities", this does not say that God hand-picks individuals, or gives tacit approval to whoever happens to be in charge. It means that civil power exists for a good purpose and is this way by divine design. The "authorities" here probably shouldn't be confused with persons with authority, but rather refers to the act of holding power/authority itself.

God did not personally make Nero the Roman emperor; but the act of rule which Rome has--to maintain the rule of law where it has jurisdiction--this ultimately does come from God.

"For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval; for it is God’s servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience. For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, busy with this very thing. Pay to all what is due them—taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due."

Civil authority wields a sword (literally and figuratively) to address violations of the rule of law, and Christians are not called to be law-breakers. Instead Christians are called to be humble servants and act in accordance with the rules of law where we live. This civil power, which exists from God, exists to curb civil evil. If I run a red light, I'll receive a ticket and a fine--as a Christian it would be wrong for me to violate such laws and if I did it would be proper for me to, for example, receive this fine and in turn pay it and acknowledge where I have erred.

At no point does any of this mean that God personally makes someone king, emperor, president, mayor, or school class treasurer; that such persons are owed any kind of absolute allegiance, or that any temporal system of power is to be obeyed unquestioningly. As the Christian confesses one God, the Father who is over all, and one Lord Jesus Christ.

"Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not covet'; and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law.

Besides this, you know what time it is, how it is now the moment for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we became believers; the night is far gone, the day is near. Let us then lay aside the works of darkness and put on the armor of light; let us live honorably as in the day, not in reveling and drunkenness, not in debauchery and licentiousness, not in quarreling and jealousy. Instead, put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires."

We acknowledge that all authority ultimately belongs to God, and temporal authority exists only from God, for but a season, for the civil good of human society. This temporal authority has no permanence, is not owed any kind of ultimate allegiance, and it serves the singular purpose to maintain the peace and for civil justice in this present age.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Athée]

You are absolutely correct. He is God. He created us. And it gets "worse". Read Romans 9:17 and its context.

As Bob Dylan said, "you gotta serve somebody". The question is, who you gonna serve? And when one comes to full understanding of the personality of the God of the bible, one gladly would serve him, not out of fear, but out of desire. That is, unless the person is hell bent on being in full control of his life, no matter what. And God lets us make that choice, even if part of it is to deny he is our creator. Be careful what you wish for.

And what if you DO make that choice?
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

Wow. I'm not sure what to say. You are willing to take him at his word that gasing pregnant women and torturing children is all part of a good and moral plan. I'm not sure what you can possibly mean by 'good or 'moral' in that context. You seem to have given over your sense of morality entirely, willing to call literally anything good as long as it's God who does it, no matter how abhorrent it is and you so this without actually knowing he has a plan for all this, you just hope he does.
That's terrifying

 

[Almost there]

Wow. I'm not sure what to say. You are willing to take him at his word that gasing pregnant women and torturing children is all part of a good and moral plan. I'm not sure what you can possibly mean by 'good or 'moral' in that context. You seem to have given over your sense of morality entirely, willing to call literally anything good as long as it's God who does it, no matter how abhorrent it is and you so this without actually knowing he has a plan for all this, you just hope he does.
That's terrifying

I do not presume to judge God. YMMV

Remember, a part of his "good and moral" plan was to sacrifice His son.

This life is a mist. Eternity is not. There is plenty of scripture regarding losing your life to save it, etc. This life is very much like a "reality" video game for me. When it's "game over", I go on into the real world, this character I am now playing being but a teaching experience.

And yes, I find all those things you mentioned to be abhorrent. But I know He has a better plan. Frankly, I see it playing out all around me on a daily basis.

If you are concerned about all the suffering in the world, I recommend C. S. Lewis' The Problem of Pain.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

My analogies are like my baking...not very good But as always I appreciate that you at least tried to digest it!

So the text in question seems to say that God appoints the authorities and in this instance we are considering some of the more horrible leaders in human history. Some people have suggested that they were installed as a judgement although you don't seem to be convinced thst is the case. My point above was that by whatever means God appoints these people (by directly choosing them, by allowing Satan to install them or any other method under his sovereign control), that he does so knowing what they will do with that appointment and so bears responsibility for their actions. This leads me to question the goodness of His character in the same way I would judge a parent for giving an angry toddler a throwing knife. On second thoughts I should have let that analogy die... oh well, back to the kitchen.

Right, I don't think that Paul's teaching in Romans 13 applies to each and every instance of a potentate being installed in an office of authority and power. Moreover, in order to really understand what Paul thinks, we need to see that Paul has various nuances of the Old Testament in mind from which he draws and writes his lesson. Here, I think Pauls means to convey the more general idea that a potentate has authorization from God within certain political bounds and for certain purposes. IF the potentate, whether knowingly or unknowingly, crosses those bounds and seeks power or recognition for himself, he (or she) has transgressed against God and is no longer acting as one authorized by God. Otherwise, passages like Psalm 2 make little sense. Did God authorize and raise up the kings of the earth so that they'd rebel against Him? I don't think that was His intent, and Paul would have known this, among other things.

 

[Athée]

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."

What God has willed is "governing authorities", this does not say that God hand-picks individuals, or gives tacit approval to whoever happens to be in charge. It means that civil power exists for a good purpose and is this way by divine design. The "authorities" here probably shouldn't be confused with persons with authority, but rather refers to the act of holding power/authority itself.

God did not personally make Nero the Roman emperor; but the act of rule which Rome has--to maintain the rule of law where it has jurisdiction--this ultimately does come from God.

"For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval; for it is God’s servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience. For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, busy with this very thing. Pay to all what is due them—taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due."

Civil authority wields a sword (literally and figuratively) to address violations of the rule of law, and Christians are not called to be law-breakers. Instead Christians are called to be humble servants and act in accordance with the rules of law where we live. This civil power, which exists from God, exists to curb civil evil. If I run a red light, I'll receive a ticket and a fine--as a Christian it would be wrong for me to violate such laws and if I did it would be proper for me to, for example, receive this fine and in turn pay it and acknowledge where I have erred.

At no point does any of this mean that God personally makes someone king, emperor, president, mayor, or school class treasurer; that such persons are owed any kind of absolute allegiance, or that any temporal system of power is to be obeyed unquestioningly. As the Christian confesses one God, the Father who is over all, and one Lord Jesus Christ.

"Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not covet'; and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law.

Besides this, you know what time it is, how it is now the moment for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we became believers; the night is far gone, the day is near. Let us then lay aside the works of darkness and put on the armor of light; let us live honorably as in the day, not in reveling and drunkenness, not in debauchery and licentiousness, not in quarreling and jealousy. Instead, put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires."

We acknowledge that all authority ultimately belongs to God, and temporal authority exists only from God, for but a season, for the civil good of human society. This temporal authority has no permanence, is not owed any kind of ultimate allegiance, and it serves the singular purpose to maintain the peace and for civil justice in this present age.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks for your thoughts. So what role for you think God plays in the rise to power of certain individuals?

 

[Almost there]

Right, I don't think that Paul's teaching in Romans 13 applies to each and every instance of a potentate being installed in an office of authority and power. Moreover, in order to really understand what Paul thinks, we need to see that Paul has various nuances of the Old Testament in mind from which he draws and writes his lesson. Here, I think Pauls means to convey the more general idea that a potentate has authorization from God within certain political bounds and for certain purposes. IF the potentate, whether knowingly or unknowingly, crosses those bounds and seeks power or recognition for himself, he (or she) has transgressed against God and is no longer acting as one authorized by God. Otherwise, passages like Psalm 2 make little sense. Did God authorize and raise up the kings of the earth so that they'd rebel against Him? I don't think that was His intent, and Paul would have known this, among other things.

One of the tough parts about Romans 13 is when you consider the rulership of Rome at the time he penned those words.

 

[Athée]

I do not presume to judge God. YMMV

Remember, a part of his "good and moral" plan was to sacrifice His son.

This life is a mist. Eternity is not. There is plenty of scripture regarding losing your life to save it, etc. This life is very much like a "reality" video game for me. When it's "game over", I go on into the real world, this character I am now playing being but a teaching experience.

And yes, I find all those things you mentioned to be abhorrent. But I know He has a better plan. Frankly, I see it playing out all around me on a daily basis.

If you are concerned about all the suffering in the world, I recommend C. S. Lewis' The Problem of Pain.

I disagrees so strongly with so much of what you said there but I think your willing support (though you might find it a distasteful chore) of child torture speaks clearly enough. So instead I would ask how do you know his plan is good?

 

[Athée]

Right, I don't think that Paul's teaching in Romans 13 applies to each and every instance of a potentate being installed in an office of authority and power. Moreover, in order to really understand what Paul thinks, we need to see that Paul has various nuances of the Old Testament in mind from which he draws and writes his lesson. Here, I think Pauls means to convey the more general idea that a potentate has authorization from God within certain political bounds and for certain purposes. IF the potentate, whether knowingly or unknowingly, crosses those bounds and seeks power or recognition for himself, he (or she) has transgressed against God and is no longer acting as one authorized by God. Otherwise, passages like Psalm 2 make little sense. Did God authorize and raise up the kings of the earth so that they'd rebel against Him? I don't think that was His intent, and Paul would have known this, among other things.

That's fair but doesn't really address the criticism I am making. To stubbornly extend a bad analogy... If before I give my son that throwing knife I tell him he is only allowed to use it to cut apples (knowing ahead of time that he is absolutely going to throw it at his sister), I don't see that I am absolved of responsibility.

 

[Almost there]

I disagrees so strongly with so much of what you said there but I think your willing support (though you might find it a distasteful chore) of child torture speaks clearly enough. So instead I would ask how do you know his plan is good?

Two things:
1. That is a straw man argument.
2. You are a humanist and I am a Christian. I would expect that once we get to core issues you and I would strongly disagree. The only thing that surprises me is that you seem to be surprised by that.

My beliefs are built on completely different foundations. Mine on the rock of the word of our Creator and yours on the sand of human reasoning.

 

[Athée]

Two things:
1. That is a straw man argument.
2. You are a humanist and I am a Christian. I would expect that once we get to core issues you and I would strongly disagree. The only thing that surprises me is that you seem to be surprised by that.

My beliefs are built on completely different foundations. Mine on the rock of the word of our Creator and yours on the sand of human reasoning.

1. Given the things you already agreed are acceptable as long as God says he has a reason, I'm not sure that was a straw man. If it was, however, my apologies.

2. How do you know God's plan is good? It seems like a pretty key part of the equation given the things you are willing to call acceptable.

 

[Almost there]

1. Given the things you already agreed are acceptable as long as God says he has a reason, I'm not sure that was a straw man. If it was, however, my apologies.

2. How do you know God's plan is good? It seems like a pretty key part of the equation given the things you are willing to call acceptable.

I don't have perfect knowledge of God, but I have enough knowledge to believe His plan is good. YMMV.

 

[Athée]

I don't have perfect knowledge of God, but I have enough knowledge to believe His plan is good. YMMV.

What things do you know (justified true belief?) about God allow you to believe (convinced a proposition is true or likely true?) that his plan is good?

 

[Almost there]

What things do you know (justified true belief?) about God allow you to believe (convinced a proposition is true or likely true?) that his plan is good?

For me, it's kinda like my wife. It's not a single event. I've been married to her for 20 years. I know her. If you were to tell me she did a thing, I may or may not believe you based on my understanding of her, based on our shared experiences and her response to the challenges of life.

Same with God. I've read His word. I've prayed. I've seen his response to prayer. I've experience bonafide miracles prayed for. It's a complete package rather than a single event.

 

[Athée]

For me, it's kinda like my wife. It's not a single event. I've been married to her for 20 years. I know her. If you were to tell me she did a thing, I may or may not believe you based on my understanding of her, based on our shared experiences and her response to the challenges of life.

Same with God. I've read His word. I've prayed. I've seen his response to prayer. I've experience bonafide miracles prayed for. It's a complete package rather than a single event.

And nothing in your experience suggests that he is not the kind of being who would pass judgement on the men, women and children under these dictators. Those atrocities seem entirely and keeping with the character of this being you know?