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God and Sin

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Clizby WampusCat, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    THE TESTIMONY of JESUS is THE SPIRIT of PROPHECY...

    Anything other than the TESTIMONY of JESUS, is a lie and the work of satan...

    Whether one knowingly or unknowingly is aware of that...
     
  2. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    I am not saying you are lying. I know you believe the things you post. But I am not going to believe these things are true without good evidence which you don't provide. You just keep posting what you believe.

    I believe Big Foot exists, I don't lie, do you believe Big Foot exists?
     
  3. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    I am not convinced. These are just claims not evidence.
     
  4. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Another claim without evidence.

    More claims.
     
  5. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Truth should be able to be known without faith. These are more claims.
     
  6. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Nice God you have there.
     
  7. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    More claims.

    Whose fault is this? If God made us inferior and incapable to understand him and he refuses to explain it to us. How is this our fault, it is His if he exists.

    Why should I when He commands immoral acts without explaining them. You would not support anyone that supports slavery today but you follow a God by faith that did.
     
  8. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    2 issues:

    1. As stated prior, to another, if one does not yet have the knowledge of 'good' or 'bad' (or) 'right' and 'wrong', then Adam would have no reason to necessarily listen :)


    2. If God a) has perfect foreknowledge, and also, b) truly wanted Adam not to eat of this tree; as the consequence would soil all future 'creation' entirely, then don't allow access to the tree for which He already knows will be violated.
     
  9. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    Morals are subjective. Maybe {you} think a God whom issues dictates about homosexuality being 'bad', men are above women, and slavery being a-okay, (all just for starters), is 'good'. I don't agree.


    If we disagree, how might we settle such matters? Hence, if you wish to delve into the Euthephro dilemma, we most certainly can. :)


    But I truly doubt you will do anything else, verses what you have done thus far. Which is blank assertions, and a large dose of preaching.
     
  10. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    I got what you stated prior, in post #209. You are stating agents need contrast. However, as I eluded to prior, before humans, and in heaven, such 'contrast' will likely not be necessary. And again, God can create any set of rules He wishes. Hence, to 'require' sin was God's choice, in His play book; and no one else.

    In light of your response, I'll re-ask my questions:

    1. What is the necessary definition for 'free will' here, and why? -- (Since there could be more than one description)...
    2. How does 'free will' work in heaven?
    3. Does 'free will' apply to God?


    See below...

    I can hardly wait :)


    Your asserted God changes His mind though. Hence, I guess there exists no need to investigate [your] proclaimed God any further here.

    "14 So the Lord changed his mind about the terrible disaster he had threatened to bring on his people"

    "3 So the Lord changed His mind about this. “It will not be,” said the Lord."

    "13 Now therefore amend your ways and your deeds and obey the voice of the Lord your God; and the Lord will change His mind about the misfortune which He has pronounced against you."

    Why must a dictate be followed?

    Furthermore, if the reason is anything outside, "because I say so", then you immediately concede the lack of a need for a God. And if the reason is because He says so, then it is demonstrated -> "might makes right".

    Furthermore, if the human moral compass is flawed, then how are we to know to follow God's command?


    Not only did you re-purpose option one, but you just produced a blank assertion that such a God must necessarily exist.

    I'll give you a chance to place your money where your mouth is...

    Name for me an "objective/absolute moral value"? Then please also prove it?
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
  11. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    As I mentioned, God gave Adam a clear command / advice and told him explicitly what would happen if he ate from the tree. So, _before_ eating from the tree Adam already knew that eating would be evil. The TKGE did not impart that knowledge. This is opposite to your 1st assumption.

    The phrase in Hebrew: טוֹב וָרָע, tov wa-raʿ, literally translates as good and evil, is an example of the type of figure of speech known as merism, a literary device that pairs opposite terms together in order to create a general meaning, so that the phrase "good and evil" simply implies "everything." This is seen in the Egyptian expression evil-good, which is normally employed to mean "everything." In Greek literature, Homer also uses the device when he lets Telemachus say, "I [wish to] know everything, the good and the evil." (Odyssey 20:309–310)

    TKGE is to be understood to mean a tree whose fruit imparts knowledge of everything, this phrase does not denote a moral concept. God created the tree because the tree would impart useful knowledge. But God wanted to test Adam's love and obedience to Himself. Instead, Adam chose to obey Satan.

    God never lets his perfect foreknowledge interfere with humans' free will and experience. He created the TKGE bec He _wanted_ Adam to eat of this tree at the right time, when He would allow Adam. This is opposite to your 2nd assumption.

    God's created humans to enjoy immortality with Him and God's plan cannot be "soiled." The incarnation was not an "afterthought!" It was planned from the beginning. This is opposite to your 3rd assumption.

    The problem seems that you have assumptions that are just untrue.

    Gen 1:31 So God saw everything that He made, and behold it was very good.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
  12. Paul.

    Paul. I think therefore I post Supporter

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    Yes, I can provide evidence for the existence of God. It is accumulative evidence that uses inductive reasoning to reason from the known to the unknown.

    First, the known: The space time continuum (or universe) is all the physical and material existence that we can know exists.

    Do you have any issue with this being true?
     
  13. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    I may have some issues with inductive reasoning as you go.

    Yes I have a problem with this statement. I am not convinced that if other universes do exist that we cannot know they exist. I will say that at this time we don't know of any other material universes that do exist but how can you say we can never know they exist?
     
  14. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    Not going to make this long and drawn out, as it is rather simple.

    - Adam could choose not to follow. Adam had yet to possess such knowledge. You are 'reading' more into this than is given. Adam lacked ability to assess. Adam gained ability to assess (only after) the 'act'; where he then gained 'knowledge.'

    - This has nothing to do with 'free will'. God already knew what Adam was going to do. If He did not want Him to do it, He could have placed the tree out of reach. But He did not.

    - As stated prior, God is the rule maker, as well as the rule enforcer. God sets the stage, (HE COULD HAVE SET ANY STAGE). God's foreseen plan was to decide to later create 'man', knowing (s)he would be deceived. God then knew He would have to send Himself, to Himself, to atone to Himself.


    Bazaar...
     
  15. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Do you see the contradiction between your statements? Adam could indeed choose not to follow. Indeed, he did make that choice bec he had "free will."

    Adam lacked certain knowledge before eating from the TKGE.

    You repeat this as if you never read my message. God wanted Adam to eat of this tree at the right time, when He would allow Adam. It really doesn't help you that you consider yourself more knowledgeable of the Bible than Christians. It sounds like you ate of TKGE before getting to maturity :).

    You repeated this in your message but it's another one of your assumptions that are not really true. Think of the laws of physics. God made them but they're enforced by certain mechanisms. How does God enforce the law of gravity? How does God enforce the law of mass conservation? How does God enforce the law of sin and death / karma? But here we approach metaphysics and the answer is different in different religions.

    God is love and he created you and me according to His image to reflect His love for the creation. There is no other scenario. If Adam stops reflecting His love and become know-all smart-ass, then he is no longer the human that God created. He is a lower animal. There is no love without "free will." You cannot rape someone and say that that is love. God is _not_ a rapist.

    Yes, you're right. If someone has the "free will" to not love you or trust you, there is a true risk that that person will will withdraw their love. But that is the nature of love. A person who does not have the ability to withdraw their love does not have the ability to offer their love.

    God knew that He would need to become a human being in order to show human beings how to love. He wanted to restore immortality that Adam lost by his transgression and human beings lose daily by their lack of trust and love.

    Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
  16. BigV

    BigV Junior Member

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    You have a choice not to end up in a Muslim or a myriad of non-Christian Hells also. And yet, you stubbornly chose all those other hells. According to your own logic.

    But why would you chose Hell, willingly?
     
  17. Paul.

    Paul. I think therefore I post Supporter

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    It would be less interesting if you didn't.

    Thank you for pointing that out. I will phrase it better as it is a statement about the universe in which we live.

    All of the known physical (or material) existence, exists within the space time continuum (or universe.)

    Is that an acceptable premise?
     
  18. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    Did you see that I tried to condense my answers? Each of my (3) bullet point was addressing differing statements of yours. See below...

    Exactly. Do we know what 'knowledge'? As I stated prior, you are reading more into this than is given from the Bible. It's reasonable to conclude Adam did not know what is considered 'bad.'

    In the future, I will no longer try to condense my response with you. :) I will respond to each and every statement, for more clarity.

    Additionally, I read your response the first time. You are asserting that God wanted Adam to eat the fruit. But at a certain time.... I don't recall reading this in Verse? Maybe I missed it somewhere?


    ???

    Making blank assertions about 'God making this and that' does not win you points. We do not even know if, not only a God exists, but furthermore, your God...?

    My point here, however, is that God could make any scenario, and He chose this one. This is what I meant about not having anything to do with free will. God already knows the outcome to any scenario He would have created, which could be an infinite number of scenarios.



    ???

    How do we know God is 'love'?

    What is the definition of 'love'?



    ????

    I feel you are not picking up what I have been putting down. God creates the rules, but also enforces the rules.

    God is a subjective agent, by definition. Meaning, whatever God states, IS 'good'. If this God exists, God created the scenario for which the humans are told to follow. But how would we know if this scenario was 'good' or 'bad'?

    Furthermore, if humans are told to merely follow orders, is that always 'good'? (i.e.)

    If a mother states 'God told her to drown her kids', how are we to 'know' it was 'good' or 'not good', and/or from God or not from 'god'?

    Maybe more 'knowledge' is necessary?


    The victim has no free will, in rape.

    My only point here was that God knows the future (apparently). God created a specific scenario, and watched it unfold exactly the way He already knew it would. He's essentially watching re-runs.

    This is my point. God has the ability to create any scenario, and He chose this one.

    Bazaar....
     
  19. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    We can't go back to this point. I already addressed it in my 2 previous messages to you. God told Adam that eating of TKGE was bad and that Adam knew the consequences. If you still do not understand this simple point then we might as well stop the conversation.

    Why would God create the tree of Life and the TKGE unless He wanted Adam to eat their fruit? I will attempt to prove that the Bible teaching is that knowledge is good and desirable for people to seek and attain.

    Gen 1:31 So God saw everything that He made, and behold it was very good.

    Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.'

    Pro 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

    Pro 2:6 For the Lordgives wisdom; out of His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

    2Sa 14:7 And your servant thought, ‘The word of my lord the king will set me at rest,’ for my lord the king is like the angel of God to discern good and evil. The Lord your God be with you!

    Isa 7:15 He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good.

    1Ki 3:9 Give your servant [=Solomon] therefore an understanding mind to govern your people, that I may discern between good and evil, for who is able to govern this your great people?

    Heb 5:12-14 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

    Col 2:2-3 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God’s mystery, which is Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

    Joh 14:7 If you had known me, you would have pknown my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

    2Pe 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

    There is absolutely no reason to think that God did not want Adam to gain knowledge or that He planted TKGE for any reason other than to ultimately give Adam that knowledge.

    We're not discussing the existence of God, here, we're assuming His existence. Otherwise, this conversation is really pointless. Why talk about someone who doesn't exist? That would be an exercise in futility :).
     
  20. HitchSlap

    HitchSlap PROUDLY PRIMATE

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    IMO, what you provide is an argument that ticks the boxes you need to believe.

    No problem there.

    This is the space where religions are born.


    Yep.

    Nope.



    Your ultimate destination is one big argument from incredulity. Once you recognize this, you'll understand why we're not impressed with your syllogism.
     
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