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God and Sin

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Clizby WampusCat, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Why should I believe your testimony?
     
  2. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Why should I believe your testimony or gods testimony?
     
  3. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Why should I believe this?
     
  4. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Why should I believe this?
     
  5. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Why is it sufficient? All you have ever provided is your faith, you just believe it for your reasons, you reject the same evidence provided by other religious claims based on nothing. Until you provide better evidence you are not convincing.
     
  6. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Do you have this evidence?
     
  7. BigV

    BigV Junior Member

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    God is the one who makes the rules, he is accountable to noone, right? So, if sin was necessary, then God wanted it to happen!

    Yes he did. Infinite torture is worse than what even the most evil human can do to you.

    Find the most evil person you can find, and the worst they can do to you is torture you from birth until your death, which is give or take 100 years. And this will be the most pain and suffering you can endure. Luckily for you and me, nature gave us a mechanism of passing out when the pain gets unbearable. But God's torture is without that mechanism.

    He just fries people for eternity. Without reprieve. Think about it. Some Christians have come up with a way of making God less evil by making his Hell temporary (i.e people burn up and stop existing). This latter version is the same as what earthly villains do. Except earthly villains can only torture people they have access to. God has access to everyone.

    So, no matter how you slice it, God's plan is making sin worse.


    God is omnipresent. How can omnipresent God be absent from any particular place?

    Besides, why create something that he is not proud of?
     
  8. BigV

    BigV Junior Member

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    Look, if you know with 100% certainty that the child you chose to conceive will grow up to be a Hitler, then you are responsible for conceiving this child.
    Unlike God, humans don't have this 100% foreknowledge, so we get a pass, including Hitler's parents, on what happens to their kids.

    But God doesn't get a pass, because he knew and still did what he did.

    Like I said above, we don't know the fate of our kids. We procreate, ultimately, because that is one way we stay alive after we die. Plus it feels good to procreate. As one person told me, I don't have any kids, but I love to practice procreation.

    This touches on another point, but here again, God loses. Because under his system, people are born bearing the sin of Adam, by default, instead of being born being covered by the blood of Christ and forgiven. It was God's system that made the salvation so difficult, but being tainted with sin so easy.

    Again, this is God's design and he bears direct responsibility for it.
     
  9. theoneandonlypencil

    theoneandonlypencil Partial preterist, dispensationalist molinist

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    That makes absolutely no sense and does not follow my previous example whatsoever.

    This entire argument falls flat on it's face because, yet again, people have the choice to not end up in hell. God isn't doing it to them; they do it to themselves. What, do you complain about getting jailtime for a crime because 'well I didn't know how hard life in jail was'? No.

    Comparing hell to 'what villains do' is also useless as, like I covered before, things like morality and the very concept of evil and good is completely subjective if not given a clear definition from the very beginning(and in the very beginning we would be animals pre-human era incapable of processing any moral thoughts or concepts).
     
  10. Tinker Grey

    Tinker Grey Wanderer Supporter

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    This entire argument falls flat, because yet again I have no choice to believe. I am not convinced of a god. I am not convinced of a hell. I choose to believe in a god or a hell any more than I can choose to believe the moon is made of green cheese (or any cheese).

    I cannot avoid your hypothetical hell inasmuch as I cannot believe there is such a thing nor make myself believe such a thing.
     
  11. theoneandonlypencil

    theoneandonlypencil Partial preterist, dispensationalist molinist

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    If you read my response as an analogy to a very nuanced topic, you may understand what I was getting at.

    Furthermore, God is not limited to materialism--but for the sake of creating a functioning world/universe, I'm sure he would work by his own set guidelines to keep things tidy.

    This concept would be a lot easier understood if people separated 'free will' from 'free will without any consequences'.

    Spoiler alert: your examples fail to back up your point and making a statement does not make it a fact.

    As much as I enjoy the concepts discussed in philosophy, this is a prime example of needlessly complicating things to the point where NOTHING makes sense. It does not need to be as complicated as you've described, and I will point out the errors here;

    If being good is an unchanging part of his character and he is unable to act outside of that, then no; he cannot simply 'change his mind'. That would be like me suddenly deciding that I'm going to turn into a biological dog instead of a human.

    This would imply that there are other dictates to be followed; there are not.

    Why is the sky blue, because we just started calling it that?

    Calling the sky 'blue'(something subjective, as there are words besides blue to describe the sky)is simply describing a pre-existing observable fact. The word 'blue' is not absolute, but what we are describing is. Therefor, you could argue that calling the sky blue is subjective, since another person could easily call it something else. But what they can't do is change the sky's color, which is something any living things with eyes(that are not colorblind)can observe.

    The same principles apply to God. God isn't 'good' because he says so--calling him 'good' is describing the unchanging character trait God possesses that we commonly associate with goodness.

    This entire point relies on the possibility of something outside of God dictating morality; which there, in this scenario, is not. Therefor, it doesn't matter if God's 'good' matches our subjective ideas of the concept.


    I agree.

    Except it does not, as you can see.
     
  12. theoneandonlypencil

    theoneandonlypencil Partial preterist, dispensationalist molinist

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    This is a complicated matter, as the bible really only tells us that in order to be saved, we should believe in Jesus Christ and follow his commandments. Technically, you could believe in Jesus as it's been verified that he did exist; so if you followed his teachings, then, in some way--I would wager yes, you'd be considered safe.

    On a lesser note, it's false to say you cannot change your beliefs. People do it all the time, perhaps not on the same scale, but with a lot of things.

    If we're being real here, the thing holding you back would be the prerequisites you've set in your mind for defining what is 'true' and 'untrue'. I won't argue whether or not those prerequisites are 'correct' or not, as there's really no way to tell outside of educated guessing, but the fact is you have every power to disregard them as in a lot of cases action precedes belief. Psychologically speaking, you can convince yourself of just about anything so long as you're willing--I would guess that most atheists stay atheists simply on the basis that they do not wish to change their minds because those 'prerequisites' have not been met, or because they don't like it due to personal preferences(which are a byproduct of what we see, do, hear and pursue--I.E. changeable as well).

    I am not saying you should or shouldn't change your belief, just making a statement that your argument is not consistent.
     
  13. Tinker Grey

    Tinker Grey Wanderer Supporter

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    This is not what I said. I said, I cannot choose to believe. If someone presents evidence that I am wrong on a topic, I can be convinced. But, I cannot choose to be convinced. Either the information convinces me or it doesn't. There is no choice in the matter.

    I am indeed consistent.

    In fact, I have changed my mind. I was a Christian for 44 years, after all.
     
  14. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Because I don´t lie.
     
  15. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    But more importantly, because GOD does not lie...
     
  16. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    because it is all there written over thousands of years...and because all that is written were simply the shadows of what was to come and all that would be fulfilled in CHRIST

    GOD provided sign upon sign and pictures and shadows and symbols and pieces of the puzzle throughout HIS written word so that we would look back and bring to mind that ALL along HE spoke and pointed us to HIS SON.
     
  17. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    There is no evidence provided by other religious claims, sir...all it is is a lower imitation and distortion of THE TRUTH...

    There is only ONE GOD...and ONE TRUTH...
    I told you, many profess to have god(s) but deny THE SON.
    GOD in HIS WISDOM, by sending HIS SON, not only provided the ONLY WAY and the ONLY TRUTH...but shut up the mouths of every lying, deceiving spirit who whispers and mutters a lower imitation and distortion of THE TRUTH.

    It has been the work of satan from the beginning and his lying words continue even to this day:

    ¨Did GOD reallllyyyyyyy say?¨


    Yes, GOD really did say.
     
  18. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Myths were simply the work of satan...who taught superstitious men how to practice divination. How to delve into spiritual realms

    But rather than providing THE TRUTH, satan twisted and distorted and offered portions of the truth so as to sow in seeds of confusion and doubt

    You look at these other religions and myths and you think they are truth(s)?

    GOD is before all things and HIS TRUTH is from the beginning...



    satan also knew the truth.
    but satan is a liar and a deceiver.


    There is only ONE TRUTH...and that TRUTH will remain THE TRUTH regardless of those who believe it or do not believe it.
     
  19. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Isaiah 8

    Bind up the testimony, seal the instruction among My disciples.’ 17And I will wait for the LORD, that hideth His face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for Him. 18Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me shall be for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, who dwelleth in mount Zion. 19And when they shall say unto you: ‘Seek unto the ghosts and the familiar spirits, that chirp and that mutter; should not a people seek unto their God? on behalf of the living unto the dead 20for instruction and for testimony?’—Surely they will speak according to this word, wherein there is no light.— 21And they shall pass this way that are sore bestead and hungry; and it shall come to pass that, when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse by their king and by their God, and, whether they turn their faces upward, 22or look unto the earth, behold distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish, and outspread thick darkness.
     
  20. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    What this means is that there is only ONE TESTIMONY...and those who do not speak according to THE WORD...it is because there is no light in them (of the knowledge of THAT ONE TESTIMONY)...

    The TESTIMONY is bound up amongst HIS DISCIPLES...yet to those who testify to this TRUTH as HIS WITNESSES, some do not believe...

    And rather than going and continuing to go to the ONE TRUE GOD, they seek and do not even realize that they are seeking the spirits of the dead....and those are them that belong to another father, sir..

    And NOT GOD, who is THE ONE AND ONLY GOOD....I repeat and emphasize GOOD FATHER...

    Even if the children think they know better than their FATHER....they do not fully understand that their FATHER knew what was best for them and did what was best for them.

    If only the children would wake up and realize, though they may be full grown, their FATHER in HEAVEN knows best and they should leave it at that and TRUST IN HIM and HIM alone....
     
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