1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Private Member only forums for more serious discussions that you may wish to not have guests or search engines access to.
    • Your very own blog. Write about anything you like on your own individual blog.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. We are holding our 2022 Angel Ministry Drive now. Please consider signing up, or if you have any questions about being an Angel, use our staff application form. The world needs more prayer now, and it is a great way to help other members of the forums. :) To Apply...click here

God and Sin

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Clizby WampusCat, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

    +2,676
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    No HE provided a scenario in which HE took on our covering so that we might take on and be hidden in HIS
     
  2. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

    +2,676
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Don´t condescend me, sir...I am in no mood for your twisted speech.
     
  3. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

    +717
    United States
    Skeptic
    Private
    Okay, looks like you DO need further elaboration here.... :) 'Adam' did not know what was 'right' or 'wrong' BEFORE he ate the apple. Sure, afterwords, he did. Which would mean if Adam was to commit further acts against God, 'post-apple', God could surely hold Adam accountable. But to hold Adam accountable when he did not know, appears illogical.
     
  4. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

    +2,676
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    DO not...do you understand these words?

    Can you tell GOD that you did not understand what DO NOT means?

    As a mother and a father protect their children, they will say, do not...if they do, they disobey...

    Of course, we don´t call this sin...and we don´t tell them that if they do, they will surely die...

    But GOD did say...and what HE said, was to be obeyed....
     
  5. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

    +2,676
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    What elaboration do YOU need?
     
  6. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

    +717
    United States
    Skeptic
    Private
    Well, I could try, but it might be a one way dialogue. And I have already told you, and you don't seem to get it. Maybe a good night's sleep will remedy this? Who knows?


    You keep wanting to use parent/children analogies. I got one for ya...

    Your one-year-old girl is told not to put the metal fork in the electrical socket. She somehow does anyways. Is the one-year-old accountable for her actions? Or, is the mother accountable for not protecting her child?

    Please, think about it....
     
  7. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

    +717
    United States
    Skeptic
    Private
    "He went against GOD". He had no idea it was a 'sin'.
    "He listened to another voice". He had no idea it was a 'sin'
    "He sinned..." He had no idea it was a 'sin'
     
  8. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

    +717
    United States
    Skeptic
    Private
    You really seem to gravitate to these parent/children scenarios. I got one for you:

    My child not only disobeys my requests, my child later tells me (s)he wants nothing to do with me ever again. And this is after I sacrificed everything to give them a 'better' life.

    Do I?

    A: Hope (s)he changes his/her mind, and if they don't, forgive them anyways or do not impose harm upon them.
    B: Give them an ultimatum, establish a timeline, and if that timeline is to pass, and their choice is not to obey, lock them in a dungeon of torture forever.

    But you see, even this scenario is not 'AS BAD'. Why? Because the child at least knows this parent EXISTS. And also can carry on a two-way dialogue, if desired.
     
  9. theoneandonlypencil

    theoneandonlypencil Partial preterist, dispensationalist molinist

    803
    +669
    United States
    Lutheran
    Married
    US-Others
    If we did not have sin, we would not have free will as we would not be able to choose to rebel against God if we sought to. Sin is necessary as light is to shadow; in a dark room, there could be a ball...but you'll never see that ball unless the light is there to illuminate it.

    It always fascinates me how non-believers pick on the fact that God allowed sin to exist, yet even as a predisposition sin is still a choice and not an absolute. It's like committing a crime and then complaining that jail exists...you could've simply not committed any crimes.

    The Euthephro dilemma is a false dichotomy and was, to my knowledge, originally a question of polytheism, not monotheism(which is relevant considering part of the discourse was whether or not gods would agree/disagree on certain things). God does not love the pious because they are pious, nor is it pious because it is loved by God; the simple answer is that something is good, because God declared it to be good, and God's character is definitively 'good'. It's not arbitrary, it's part of his character.
     
  10. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

    +2,676
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    He went against GOD...period.

    What are you trying to justify, sir?

    Yourself? Or Adam, your father?
    If Adam was justified, there would have been no need for CHRIST...

    Try professing your own self-righteousness before GOD...see if you can bring something other than THE COVERING before GOD...

    Even Job understood man´s dilemma...which is WHY he pleaded and prophecied our case...

    If only there were a days man between us... Re: Job 9

    There is..,.

    HIS NAME IS CHRIST
     
  11. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

    +2,676
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I gravitate to these parent/children scenarios because that is what it is...

    You have the answer already in the story of the prodigal.

    You should know what to do as his/her father...so do it.

    What you do is subjective and biased since these are your own flesh and blood,

    What would you do for the child which is really not your own flesh and blood?

    Righteousness?

    Or partiality?
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  12. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

    +2,676
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    GOD is good and the father of all...and HE has done for man what man could not do for himself by giving the VERY BEST and the ONE AND ONLY WAY...HE will be just when HE judges and the justifier of all whose faith is clearly and properly directed in and on HIS SON....and nothing other than HIS SON.

    Romans 3
     
  13. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

    +717
    United States
    Skeptic
    Private
    It's almost as if you did not read my response :) God is both the rule maker and rule enforcer. He can create whatever scenario He so chooses. One would assume, according to apologetics, that God is also a spaceless, timeless, omnipotent agent. Surely God's abilities are not limited to that of materialism?

    And speaking of 'free will', how does this concept work in heaven? Furthermore, does 'free will' necessarily apply to God?

    Or maybe we should explore what actually is 'free will'?


    Morals are subjective. Even with a God. Spoiler alert. Might makes right?

    You are partially correct. -- The Euthephro is a false dilemma. Why? a true dilemma infers A or not A. Hence, the title needs a re-word, under classical definition. But let's not quibble over the title, but the content presented. Which is:

    1). Whatever God does is good.

    2). God does this or that because it is good.

    Option 1). is flawed because:

    - God could change His mind
    - All such beings are merely following God's dictates
    - How do we know Gods commands are good, because He says so?

    Option 2). is flawed because:

    - God is appealing to a standard outside Himself. Hence, God is no longer necessary to ground morals.

    Theists sometimes try to shoehorn in a third option into this false dilemma. However, it seems to inevitably directly borrow from option 1).
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  14. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

    +3,936
    Canada
    Anglican
    Married
    You raise several interesting points but let's start with this important issue, which you've repeated several times :).

    Gen 2:16-17 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

    There is a clear command here to _not_ eat of that tree and a clear explanation of the results of breaking that command. So, Adam clearly knew that eating of that tree would be a transgression and knew the consequences of that transgression.

    Similarly, your one-year-old girl is certainly accountable for her transgression. Her mother wouldn't be a good mother if she hid all the forks away. She needed to teach her to _not_ put the metal fork in the electrical socket. It would be pointless to hide all the forks bec the child could find another metal object and put it in the socket. We cannot grow up into responsible adults if we're protected from LIFE.

    The result of transgression is death. Think of this not as an arbitrary judgment but as a law of physics. Something like the Hindu karma. But God, in His mercy, did not leave us to pay for karma that we could never pay for bec of the continuous transgressions of mankind.

    If this frame of thought is OK with you, we can proceed to your other points. Otherwise, we can discuss this further.
     
  15. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

    +2,676
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Ok. There lies the problem...you...YOU...don´t believe that GOD is GOOD...and as a father did what is best for HIS CHILDREN...
     
  16. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

    +2,676
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    GOD is appealing to a standard outside of HIMSELF? You just got through stating the GOSPEL, with your limited understanding as per your post 187:

    Cvanwey wrote:
    HE DECIDED TO CREATE A SCENARIO WHERE HE WOULD LATER SACRIFICE HIMSELF TO HIMSELF TO APPEASE HIMSELF, AND CREATE A LOOPHOLE FOR A SCENARIO HE BOTH KNEW WOULD ALREADY HAPPEN, BUT STILL CREATE. HE THEN DEMANDED THAT ALL TAKE IT ON FAITH ALONE, LACKING EVIDENCE, AND THE ONES WHOM DON'T, WILL FRY FOREVER.

    And now you are saying that HE is appealing to a standard OUTSIDE of HIMSELF?
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  17. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

    +2,676
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Hereś the thing, HE came into the world ONCE...you were not the first eyewitness, sir...but you do not believe the testimony of those who have THAT WITNESS in them...

    It isn´t the fault of the witnesses who testify sir...

    Some would believe
    Some would not

    The world was turned upside down, sir...what you consider the wisdom of the world, is far inferior to the WISDOM of GOD...
     
  18. Paul.

    Paul. I think therefore I post Supporter

    322
    +33
    Australia
    Protestant
    Divorced
    Beyond reasonable doubt would require logically reasoned evidence that affirms Gods existence. All premises would have to be correct. Any evidence that contradicts God’s existence would need to be shown to be wrong due to incorrect premises, an error in logic or reasoning. This would then mean that there are no good reasons to doubt the existence of God so it is proven beyond reasonable doubt.
     
  19. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

    +874
    United States
    Atheist
    Married
    Why should I believe your testimony?
     
  20. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

    +874
    United States
    Atheist
    Married
    Why should I believe your testimony?
     
Loading...